Tone of O vs. F

[mario1956]

I know this has probably been beat to death already, but I am new here. Have been playing guitar for over 50 years and would like to get into playing mandolin. My intent is not to get into a particular style of play but to understand some basic technical ideas about mando construction before making my first purchase.
Been looking around and reading about the general tonal differences between F hole and Oval hole mandolins. The opinion is that the Oval hole has a warmer, bassier sound and the F hole has a brighter, sharply focused sound.
Would the placement of the soundholes affect top bracing and thus timbre?
With that being said I have also noticed that the Oval hole mandolins generally have a 12 fret to the body joint neck and the F hole mandolins have a 14 fret neck. That also determines bridge placement, correct? Would that explain in some part the tonal differences due to scale length?
I know that 12 fret guitars vs. 14 fret guitars that makes a difference, same here?

Thanks for helping a noob out!

[OneChordTrick]

Good article here: https://www.folkmusician.com/blogs/m...hole-mandolins

14 vs 12 fret necks has an impact on the bridge placement but not the scale length, for the same size body the bridge will be further from the heel on a 14 fret. 12 and 14 fret necks can both have the same length scales

[David Lewis]

Here's one which actually inspired me, and also helped me understand. I now own 2 Fs, (one A shape, one F-style) and 2 O's (same).

I hope Ted doesn't mind me posting his article.

http://jazzmando.com/tips/archives/002510.shtml

[George Henry]

I've got two As; a Flatiron Performer A with X bracing and F holes, and a Lafferty (Schneider) X braced A model with oval hole. Both have 14 fret necks. Both sound great but totally different. The Flatiron is loud, sweet, and excels in a jam. The Lafferty has a loud, open bass, and a thinner, more strident treble. I actually like the Lafferty better, but they each have different strengths.

[Tim N]

Here's one which actually inspired me, and also helped me understand. I now own 2 Fs, (one A shape, one F-style) and 2 O's (same).

I hope Ted doesn't mind me posting his article.

http://jazzmando.com/tips/archives/002510.shtml

With reference to the article, does then a smaller oval hole produce more punch than a larger one? My Gewa has a fairly small kidney- shaped hole. (does that count as oval..?)

[Charlieshafer]

Well, the way a builder builds will have something to do with it, but what I've found through the years, as well as others, is that oval holes have a little more sustain, and seem to have a slightly richer (more complex?... fishing here, as it seems like more notes ring) anyway, and F types have more volume and sheer punch. If playing styles mattered, most would choose an F for bluegrass stuff, as you get that nice hard, well-defined chop, and Celtic or classical players would prefer an oval for that sweet sustain. Personally, I prefer oval holes, but many more will prefer F holes, so opinions are just that.

[fatt-dad]

My advice? Start with a well-setup a-model mandolin with f-holes. I think these are very versatile in all sorts of music. Something like a Eastman or Kentucky.

I love my paddle head Gibson 12-fret oval-hole a-model.

f-d

[PhilGE]

If you are just starting out, remember that your playing technique will change with practice, so your sound will change, no matter what instrument you are playing. Also remember that strings make a huge difference in tone/sound, no matter what instrument you’re playing.

[EdHanrahan]

Start with a well-setup a-model mandolin with f-holes. ... these are very versatile ...

+1 on that!

Keep in mind round/oval-hole instruments generally have more sustain and (some say) more complex (or at least different) tone, but they also have less volume. A string can project only its given amount of energy and no more, and that energy can be converted to sound softly over a long period of time, or loudly over a short period of time - that's the core difference between round/oval vs. f-holes. If you need to be heard over banjoes & fiddles, go with the f-holes - nobody will hear your sustain at all!

This assumes that you're comparing instruments of roughly equal quality; better, lighter-built instruments tend to be louder, or at least more responsive to the player's input. BUT ULTIMATELY, tone+volume is mostly responsive to the player's hands, skill, and "feel" - maybe more than the instrument itself.

And oh yeah: It's not so much the location, per se, of the soundholes that causes the difference as it is HOW those holes, and their associated bracing, cause the top to vibrate in response to the strings. The more scientific among us have studied exactly how various parts of differently-built tops vibrate, and/or don't vibrate, in response to energy. If you REALLY NEED to know this stuff in detail, you'll want to study the doctoral theses of, probably, some of our Café members. And/or sign up for your own graduate-engineer study!

[George Henry]

My oval whole Lafferty is pretty frustrating in a jam, but sounds really pretty solo or in a duet. The f holed Flatiron sounds great in any context. The mandolin tone that I hear in my head as the ideal tone is Red Rector's old A4. My Lafferty is heading that way, but it needs a few years.

[Mike Snyder]

Fire hose analogy; The nozzle will throw a hard straight stream or a wide fog. The f mandolin is the straight stream (of sound) the oval is the fog. Both instruments can fill a room, just in different ways. Best to have one of each (see avatar) to be well armed for any musical opportunity. I mix and match and cross genres with each instrument, but the oval does not chop nearly as well as the F.

[ralph johansson]

I know this has probably been beat to death already, but I am new here. Have been playing guitar for over 50 years and would like to get into playing mandolin. My intent is not to get into a particular style of play but to understand some basic technical ideas about mando construction before making my first purchase.
Been looking around and reading about the general tonal differences between F hole and Oval hole mandolins. The opinion is that the Oval hole has a warmer, bassier sound and the F hole has a brighter, sharply focused sound.
Would the placement of the soundholes affect top bracing and thus timbre?
With that being said I have also noticed that the Oval hole mandolins generally have a 12 fret to the body joint neck and the F hole mandolins have a 14 fret neck. That also determines bridge placement, correct? Would that explain in some part the tonal differences due to scale length?
I know that 12 fret guitars vs. 14 fret guitars that makes a difference, same here?

Thanks for helping a noob out!

Gibson F2's and F4's have the short neck, but so do some of their f-hole models, like the F7 and F12. I'm pretty sure that most modern ovalholes have the long neck and high bridge placement. This is the case, e.g., with my Runesson and with Collings ovalholes. And at least in my Runesson there is no mistaking the ovalhole character of its sound.

I do believe that f-holes project better in a group situation and are better suited for rhythm playing.

[Victor Daniel]

I've found my oval hole mandolins have such a sweet upper register. The high notes are beautiful, clear and sparkling. Very enjoyable to play by myself or in a more intimate setting but in a really noisy setting the sound gets lost. I disagree that is purely an issue of volume as my oval hole gibson is a very loud instrument, but more an issue of cut. The f-hole design just cuts through the fog of sound better. The f-holes also seem to provide a bit more user feedback in a loud jam. I can hear what I'm doing better. That being said I've played my Gibson oval hole in a pretty large outdoor acoustic jam and had no problem being heard. But the problem for me was in loud indoor jams with many instruments and loud audience noise. That's when I found myself wishing I brought an F-hole mando.
As mentioned above, it depends on the style of music you want to play. If bluegrass is the sound you want go for an F-hole. Many other genres work well with either mandolin styles.

[MikeZito]

For my 2-cents, David, George and Victor all make good points.

What it all boils down to is a matter of personal preference. Some types of music sound better with F holes, some sound better with O holes. Play, experiment, grow and then let time and experience be your best guide.

[jimmy powells]

Whilst your discussion is about tone, almost inevitably, VOLUME comes into it unless of course you are playing alone at home or perhaps duo or trio where you can be heard easier. So you may buy an oval hole for tone preference, but don;t forget about volume otherwise you may find yourself looking to change and lose money.

F-hole mandolins generally work very much better than oval holes in terms of projection This is borne out by the simple fact that if you took the top 500 mandolins players in the world, I reckon 490 would be playing F-hole mandolins. This excludes classical of course.

Good luck.