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Thread: Single-mic or not ?

  1. #1

    Question Single-mic or not ?

    Hello there

    Long story short, I'm currently rebuilding a solo repertoire on the mandolin (+ voice). I'm now at a point where I'd like to properly record my work and use it to find places to perform.

    I really like the idea of single-mic for its versatility and the positioning thing. For now I do it solo, but I also played with a double-bass or with a violin player and that could happen again. It seems to me that a single-mic would be a nice idea considering I could easily add one or two musicians with the same equipment.

    What do you guys think ?

    If that's a good enough idea, what should I get ?

    I've read what has been said about the ear trumpet labs mics, and I'm quite interested by those, for they seem quite good for a studio recording and work pretty well on stage as well. Plus we know they look good...
    Considering I'm not playing straight traditionnal BG, I would think the Myrtle would be better for me, giving a warmer tone. But I'm not sure if the Edwina would fit better for a voice+mandolin configuration. Maybe it would just narrow the addition of other musicians ? Or it would not be an option any more...

    But maybe there are better options ?

  2. #2
    poor excuse for anything Charlieshafer's Avatar
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    Default Re: Single-mic or not ?

    There are 6000 questions there, rolled into one. To get things started, try to get a handle on these questions:

    1: What sort of venue, as in quiet church type thing or small listening room, or bar/outdoor scene
    2: What's being used for P.A.? Expensive mics are a waste on cheap p.a.'s.
    3: If you go with extra instruments, will all sing? Solo?

    Let's start with those first!

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    Default Re: Single-mic or not ?

    We've used a single mic. ( really only one for everything) for several years with much success. Believe it or not our mic was a inexpensive ribbon mic (Nady). Now to be perfectly honest we are a bluegrass gospel group and play mostly churches, which makes things simple but have used it in other situations, including small outside BG and gospel festivals. I can't remember but a couple times that I couldn't make it work. I can see how a noisey bar would be next to impossible especially with a figure 8 mic but most other venues are doable if set up correctly. Dale Perry helped me get started and if you decide to go that route and need some advice on getting started PM me and I'll try to get you pointed in that direction

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    Default Re: Single-mic or not ?

    I have large diaphragm mics, I can switch from omni, to figure 8 to cardioid. The cardioid is much more sensitive than the figure 8 as far as sound into the board, but the figure 8 gives more room around the mic. The switch can make a difference when playing in less than optimum venues.
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  6. #5

    Default Re: Single-mic or not ?

    1. I suppose that what I do wouldn't fit well in a bar and is asking a bit of the audience's attention. So I would say a small listening room.
    2. I don't have any PA so I suppose it would be what the scene provides. Should I consider buying some ? I once did a private venue with 20 something people and all I used was an AER amp, mainly because I use a loop pedal for some tunes. Hm... not sure how that would fit in a single-mic configuration now :-/
    3. For now I'm solo but I'd love to share the stage with someone else who could play and sing.

    ps : sorry for my English, it's not my mother tongue

  7. #6
    Registered User Trey Young's Avatar
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    Default Re: Single-mic or not ?

    To me, unless you are playing in a listening room through a nice PA, a really nice mic will not be discernible from a decent mic. I have used an Audio Technica 2020 in venues ranging from coffee shops, to bars, to outdoor festival stages and I have been happy with the end result. Especially since I bought it for $80 (if my memory serves me correctly).

  8. #7

    Default Re: Single-mic or not ?

    You do want something decent if you are going to record with it.
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  9. #8
    poor excuse for anything Charlieshafer's Avatar
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    Default Re: Single-mic or not ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fabian View Post
    1. I suppose that what I do wouldn't fit well in a bar and is asking a bit of the audience's attention. So I would say a small listening room.
    2. I don't have any PA so I suppose it would be what the scene provides. Should I consider buying some ? I once did a private venue with 20 something people and all I used was an AER amp, mainly because I use a loop pedal for some tunes. Hm... not sure how that would fit in a single-mic configuration now :-/
    3. For now I'm solo but I'd love to share the stage with someone else who could play and sing.
    ps : sorry for my English, it's not my mother tongue
    You're English is fine, don't worry! Short term, with the looping, it seems like you'd best go with one vocal mic, and one instrument mic. I'd do the instrument mic on a stand. I do know some who do a lot of looping actually use two instrument ics, one for the looping and effects, and one just a straight signal to solo of while the looping is going on. The vocal mic can be a straight old-fashioned SM58. The good news is that with an SM58 for vocals, and a small diaphragm condenser for the instrument (there are a bunch of good ones, one fellow on the forum loves the Peavey, I use Avantones, etc, all around $130-$150) you can get two mics for less than one Ear Trumpet.

    As far as P.A., if the places you play do have a system, then great. If a small place, an AER or similar is fine. For a little bit larger, the Bose Compact seems to have quite a following, but I know if Europe there are a couple of others that are also good. That's another question. I use the QSC 10 powered speakers with an Allen and Heath or Soundcraft mixer for outdoor things, and my main system is in a fixed hall, so I'm not the person to give opinions on the smaller portable systems.

    But I'm thinking two mics are probably the way to go, especially if you grow a little. The single-mic idea is cool, and can work really well and sound great, but for limited circumstances. Go for it if you eliminate the looping, but it just sounds like the flexibility of the two mics ill serve you better.

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  11. #9

    Default Re: Single-mic or not ?

    Thank you all for those answers !

    For sure, two mics should be easier if I use a looper. At some point, I thought I could use a single-mic for the mandolin and the voice, plus another clip-on mic for the looper... But then the soundcheck might become tough for every place I go. The thing is, I use a looper because I'm on my own and want to improvise on some chords. If I'd have a partner, I guess I wouldn't use it any more.

    I already own a Meridian mic and its preamp from K&K. So it seems that I should stick with what I got for now. And if I got a crew to mess around with, getting a single-mic could be the next option, right ?

    Do you think it's going to be descent enough to record with that and a SM58 ?

    Should I consider buying a PA system ? Don't places who invite musicians usually have some ?

    It seems I might save a few bucks and get on that recording thing right away...

    Thanks again

  12. #10
    poor excuse for anything Charlieshafer's Avatar
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    Default Re: Single-mic or not ?

    Good questions requiring long-winded "if...then" sort of answers. I'll take the short route. Sounds like your good for now with the system you're using. A single mic would be a good option when you go to two people. You'll have to practice little to get the spacing right, when one gets closer for more volume, the other gets out of the way slightly, etc.. Single mic technique is all about shading, or using the distance between the players and the mic to control volume. But you'll get that down, so no worries.

    I think you'll be a little disappoints in the sound quality for recording with those, as they won't sound as natural as a nice condenser mic. That said, give it a try with what you have before going crazy buying microphones. Some of us buy mandolins like crazy, and some of us are microphone nuts. I can pretty much guarantee that after owning just about everything, you end up relying on just a few. You can always add a little "air" or reverb to a recording that's a little harsh to fake a better mic. Not as good, of course, but for experimenting it's a lot less expensive.

    As to buying a PA, wait until you find where you'll be playing. The AER you have will work for small house concerts, the bigger or better venues will have their own PA, so it's that band in between where you'll need something, and it's possible you might not play in one of those for a while.

    The best bet is to simply jump in with what you have, and see how it goes. Many of us could easily give recommendations on specific equipment, but those, like instruments themselves, are entirely dependent on the person using them, and how they use them. Take recommendations with a grain of salt; they're a good road sign, but they're not the actual road. Jump in, have fun, find out what works and doesn;t, and fix things as you go. I love to hear someone like you planning carefully, but not one of us knows where you'll be playing, or with whom! We'll find out when you get there...

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    Default Re: Single-mic or not ?

    I very much agree with Charlie's advice.

    While you can now get a whole range of very good microphones at reasonable prices, this is not so true of full PA systems. Cheap PA's are best avoided. Here, it is wise to invest in the very best you can afford. This means a complete system is going to be quite expensive, so wait until you have a) experience and b) understand exactly what you really need. Otherwise, you can end up wasting a lot of money....
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  15. #12

    Default Re: Single-mic or not ?

    All right then ! Thanks for everything.

    I do have "poor excuse(s) for anything", but it seems now's the time to walk the walk.

    I'll keep you guys posted to have your opinions on the sound or other stuff.

  16. #13

    Default Re: Single-mic or not ?

    Due to the myriad considerations, I'm going to artificially simplify:

    1. If you're running your own sound, mixing, PA, then single mic for everything and direct box the bass.
    2. If you have a sound guy/gal, then multiple mics.

    That's been my experience. But I'm not smart enough to play, sing, and fiddle with sound. Single Mic has been terrific for us.
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    Default Re: Single-mic or not ?

    Just saying be flexible..

    might need a close vocal mic & a pickup on the mandolin , some times,

    other times a sensitive single mic will be fine.

    depends on the room and the crowd..




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  18. #15

    Default Re: Single-mic or not ?

    Okay. Just got our Myrtle. Took her through the paces for about 5 hours. Initial shared impressions:

    1. Warm sound. Like an SM58. Very complimentary for vocals.
    2. dB drops off sooner than a studio-grade LDC (distance from capsule). Can use this to our advantage - the banjo doesn't need to be 70 yards away.
    3. Build quality is good. A few head-scratching decisions. It's worth $400. Definitely not $600.
    4. Plastic Shure mic clip kinda' kills the aesthetic. I suspect the 2.0 version of the mic will fix this.
    5. I think they've EQ'd it to mitigate the most troublesome feedback areas. With a Bose L1 Compact and Fishman 220 we could turn up much more than usual... no EQ from board at all.

    I didn't buy it, but if I had I'd be hard pressed keeping it. For $600 you could get a nice studio grade LDC with switchable patterns. You could then EQ the problem freq's at the board. BUT... if you don't have that level of technical understanding and/or you simply don't want to open that can of worms, I think the extra $200 could be well spent. But I'm an audio nerd so I feel like I could RTA a cheaper mic and get similar performance.

    My 2 cents. After a year of gigging it I'm sure I'll have a more nuanced view of it.
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    Default Re: Single-mic or not ?

    I don't understand how any mic can be pre equalized. Different rooms need different equalization. I always " ring out" the room using our one mic, to me it's simpler than multiple-mic because there is only one point of entrance for all sound no two mics need exact equalization.

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    Default Re: Single-mic or not ?

    I find almost every room has a problem with the 250 range and take that down religiously. That may be one of the frequencies that are EQ'd, not sure what others I would do as most of the time that is all I need to do, every thing else is on the channels.
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  21. #18

    Default Re: Single-mic or not ?

    So I'm Myrtle is already broken. Used very gently for maybe 6 gigs. And during our indoor season it proved unusable... even with a live sound guy mixing us with a fancy A&H mixer on the glass.

    It's pretty. In a studio or quiet stage it is great. In a live setting with ambient it doesn't magically reduce feedback like they suggest.
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  22. #19

    Default Re: Single-mic or not ?

    I purchased a Myrtle and several Edwinas. They are all great mics. No problems. But I did decide to sell Myrtle. I find that the Edwina works well in all situations. That is, as a vocal mic and instrument mic. I know of numerous bands that use only one or two Edwina mics. No slam against the other mics. Edwina is all my band needs.

  23. #20

    Default Re: Single-mic or not ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Harris View Post
    So I'm Myrtle is already broken. Used very gently for maybe 6 gigs. And during our indoor season it proved unusable... even with a live sound guy mixing us with a fancy A&H mixer on the glass.

    It's pretty. In a studio or quiet stage it is great. In a live setting with ambient it doesn't magically reduce feedback like they suggest.
    Get a hold of the ET folks. They are very customer service oriented and should be able to help you.

  24. #21

    Default Re: Single-mic or not ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Harris View Post
    In a studio or quiet stage it is great. In a live setting with ambient it doesn't magically reduce feedback like they suggest.
    Those pesky laws of physics.
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    Default Re: Single-mic or not ?

    When something (or rather, if something) ever does "magically" defeat those laws of physics I am sure we would all celebrate... until then we have to live with them... that means correct placement, understanding exactly what contributes to feedback, and becoming as familiar as possible with the foibles of the gear we use...
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    Default Re: Single-mic or not ?

    Almeriastrings is right, if things are done right feedback can be controlled. The problem a band has setting up a pa at a different location each time is this knowledge must be extensive because we have little time for trial and error. This knowledge only comes by experience and is frustrating to someone without it. Just hang in there and keep learning. Also as in all advertising, the claim that this mic or that mic doesn't feed back is just a lie, they all will and proper set up and eq will control that feedback in any mic. Sure some mics or more forgiving than others.

  28. #24

    Default Re: Single-mic or not ?

    All right, it's been quite some time, but I started this thread and said I would give some feedback. So here I am...

    So I did every recording with what I already had, which was a Meridian mic and its preamp from K&K and M1 Rode for the voice (SM-58 alike).

    At first, I tried to record everything on one session, but I realised it is very limiting for the post-production thing (you can hear the mandolin in the voice mic and vice-versa). So I gradually left behind this ideal one-shot recording idea and gradually adopted a studio approach (I think) : recording the mandolin first, re-recording some bits if necessary and then the same thing with the voice.

    Then I had to really step up my game with the post-production as it makes such a big difference. I was really a novice in that field too but I learned a lot this past month.

    Anyway, I'd be very grateful if you could give me any feedback about my work, which you can listen to in this playlist.
    Actually, mandolin and voice were recorded at the same time for the first song, as I was really unwilling to do differently considering the very unstable tempo...

    I also made videos from two of those songs and I shared them in this thread if you are curious... I know I'm more or less asking the same thing in two different threads but it seems to me it makes sense to do so.

    Thanks !

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    Registered User Toni Schula's Avatar
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    Default Re: Single-mic or not ?

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    versus Single-mic:
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