Italian Mandolin music being forgotten ???

[Mandophile]

"Mando Liscio" CD FYI:

Iona Ali plays a 1917 Gibson A2 and has been in the Silver Strings since 1976; also plays in the Helenicks, a Greek quartet. Student of Rudy Cipolla.
Janice Fournier is the inspiration behind the founding in 2000 of the annual San Francisco Festival of the Mandolins; she plays with the Slavonian Traveling Band.
Kathy Sherak plays a 1913 Gibson A. She began playing Italian mandolin music with virtuoso Matteo Casserino in 1975 at Caffe Trieste,North Beach, San Francisco.
Matt Vuksinich plays mandolin and tenor mandola in several Bay Area orchestras and their offshoot ensembles. He appears on this CD playing a 1950s D'Angelico A-style mandolin.
Tom Romero plays a Guild steel string model gad-40 and an Esteve nylon string guitar model 404864.
Sheri Mignano Crawford plays a Petosa S-200 accordion with Italian musette.

[DavidKOS]

"Mando Liscio" CD FYI:

Iona Ali plays a 1917 Gibson A2 and has been in the Silver Strings since 1976; also plays in the Helenicks, a Greek quartet. Student of Rudy Cipolla.
Janice Fournier is the inspiration behind the founding in 2000 of the annual San Francisco Festival of the Mandolins; she plays with the Slavonian Traveling Band.
Kathy Sherak plays a 1913 Gibson A. She began playing Italian mandolin music with virtuoso Matteo Casserino in 1975 at Caffe Trieste,North Beach, San Francisco.
Matt Vuksinich plays mandolin and tenor mandola in several Bay Area orchestras and their offshoot ensembles. He appears on this CD playing a 1950s D'Angelico A-style mandolin.
Tom Romero plays a Guild steel string model gad-40 and an Esteve nylon string guitar model 404864.
Sheri Mignano Crawford plays a Petosa S-200 accordion with Italian musette.

So even then it's hard to find Americans that use non-archtop American style instruments?
Or am I reading you wrong? sorry if so.

[MikeZito]

As both a mandolin player (be it a bad one) as well as the producer and co-host of what is (possibly) the longest-running all-Italian radio show in the United States (since 1936), I sure hope that not only is Italian mandolin music not being forgotten, but also hopeful that real traditional Italian music isn't being pushed aside by contemporary western music as well; (a fear that I am almost sure is present in almost all ethnic cultures).

As a player I someday hope to find a nice traditional Neapolitan-style mandolin to explore some Tarantella's and some other bits of traditional Italian playing.

This video features only some VERY rudimentary mandolin playing, but I certainly like the fact that somebody young is keeping tradition with the music:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JwqPmHi9A8g

[brunello97]

Here's a shot of the album cover:

Thanks, Phil. I'm DLing my copy from CDB right now. Really looking forward to listening. SF was a watershed moment for my mandolin playing.
I've been playing most of the pieces off it for years now, and as Sheri suggests, the complexities and subtleties and humor of the pieces keeps emerging over time and attention to my work with them.

David may groan, but I play all three mandolins styles with equal delight: archtops, flatbacks and Neapolitans. (Well, four if you count electric.) I've enjoyed some of the SF pieces on one type of mandolin more than the other. Then a year or so later, I'll switch mandolins and different nuances in the piece emerge. Endlessly diverting.

(Now for sure) Sheri may groan, but I am learning to play most of these (very rudimentarily) on the accordion. Now this is fun.

Mick

[DavidKOS]

David may groan, but I play all three mandolins styles with equal delight: archtops, flatbacks and Neapolitans. (Well, four if you count electric.) I've enjoyed some of the SF pieces on one type of mandolin more than the other. Then a year or so later, I'll switch mandolins and different nuances in the piece emerge. Endlessly diverting.

Mick, feel free to enjoy playing music on any mandolin type you want.

I'm not the Mandolin Police.

Just because I prefer the flatback and Neapolitan instruments I grew up playing, doesn't change the fact the in America some of the finest European style players since Apollon have chosen Gibson (or L and H) archtop mandolins.

BUT

When you play through some of the the Calace and Munier material, those long scale instruments make the stretches even harder on some of the extended chords.

Also, the archtop instruments have longer scale AND thicker strings - this means higher string tension and that gets one away from the "Meridionale" tone of lower tension light strings.

It's personal taste...sort of like playing Bluegrass on my bowlback. It's a lot of fun but not the way most folks choose to do it.

[Simon DS]

Some Italian tunes in tab format:

[DavidKOS]

Some Italian tunes in tab format:

And thanks for including staff notation for those of us that only use TAB for playing Renaissance lute.

[brunello97]

Also, the archtop instruments have longer scale AND thicker strings - this means higher string tension and that gets one away from the "Meridionale" tone of lower tension light strings.

It's personal taste...sort of like playing Bluegrass on my bowlback. It's a lot of fun but not the way most folks choose to do it.

Thanks, David. You know I'm just teasing you....

Lately, I've been playing my Gibson with the Dogal Calace Medio strings--on John Bernunzio's recommendation. I like them a lot and they help work in that sweet spot I've been after been an oval hole and f-hole sound. I've been using the Dogal Dolce's on my bowls and flatbacks for a long while and then it was a doh! moment talking to JB.

There's a great old photo of David Grisman--as a young chubby kid--chopping away on a bowlback with some equally young BGers.
All those floppy open string notes on Jerusalem Ridge sound great on a bowl, imho.

My favorite bowlgrass tune.

Mick

[phillawrencemandolin]

Hi David: I play a 1912 Gibson F2 mandolin. That's really the only instrument I use. It has a rich tone, especially in the lower range. On my CD the harmonies are played on the same instrument, of course, so the blending of tones is impeccable. I also strove to match every ornament as precisely as possible, and I mixed the two mandolins far left and far right so the best way to experience the CD is to listen on a good sound system and to sit in the middle of the speakers or use good headphones. Often there is a third or a fourth mandolin as well. I use a 1988 Martin D28 guitar with light gauge Marquis strings. That was as close as I could get to reproducing the tone of Gino's Gibson harp guitar.

[DavidKOS]

Hi David: I play a 1912 Gibson F2 mandolin. That's really the only instrument I use. It has a rich tone, especially in the lower range.

Thanks for the response. It is a nice sounding instrument all right. It doesn't sound quite like the short-scale Italian style instruments I use, but it certainly has a pretty tone on recordings.

Of course I am in the vast minority of players that don't like long scale archtop mandolins for my own use. But I'd rather hear Italian music on an American mandolin than no Italian music, and you certainly put in the time to make this sound good.

Besides, you are in good company as many Italian players wound up using American made instruments.

Anyway, my big thanks is for taking the time and effort to continue the spread of what I think is some of the finest mandolin music in the world, the Ballo Liscio music and related folk music.

In what seems to me a world where mandolin seems to be considered a Bluegrass instrument, we need to remember the real roots of the mandolin.

[lowtone2]

Liuqin陳子涵 Chen Zi Han

Don’t know how to embed , but if you check out this Taiwanese woman’s renditions of Italian faves on Youtube, playing a liuquin, I guarantee you’ll be impressed.

Bill

I don't know anything about the folk music, but all serious mandolinists are at least aware of Calace, right?

[DavidKOS]

I don't know anything about the folk music, but all serious mandolinists are at least aware of Calace, right?

Thanks for posting.

However, I'm sure that there are people that consider themselves "serious" mandolinists that have not heard of Calace.

[pheffernan]

In what seems to me a world where mandolin seems to be considered a Bluegrass instrument, we need to remember the real roots of the mandolin.

It seems to me a world where mandolin seems to be considered a kitchen slicer.

[DavidKOS]

It seems to me a world where mandolin seems to be considered a kitchen slicer.

That "e" sure makes a difference...where's my mandoline...I'm off to the cucina.

[DavidKOS]

Hi David: I play a 1912 Gibson F2 mandolin. That's really the only instrument I use.

Phil, last night I played a short scale 1918 Gibson mandolin , and it was a lovely instrument indeed. Wonderful balanced tone, had 24 frets, and I would play Italian music on it in a minute.

As a matter of fact, the owner (an Irish fiddler) wanted to hear his instrument, and I played "Tra Veglia e Sonno" for him.

He said he really liked hearing his instrument from the other end.

Well, I certainly wouldn't refuse one of those Gibsons.

[mandopops]

David, glad you dug the Gibson oval. I love them. You know I love the Italian style Mandolin. Although I don't own a playable Bowl back (shame on me) they do sound great for the Italian music. (I do have a Sicilian Carmelo Cantania flat back that I play for the "authentic" Italian sound.) The old Gibson ovals (A or F's) are my go-to axes. They sound great on Italian & Classical Music. The bonus is they are great on funkier Music, too.
Since I'm more accustomed to the flat-backs, I've thought about getting a flat-back German style Mandolin. I've never played a flat-back version, but I think it would work for me.
Joe B

[Jim Garber]

Phil, last night I played a short scale 1918 Gibson mandolin , and it was a lovely instrument indeed.

I think you mean a short neck Gibson mandolin. I believe that all Gibsons have the same scale length but the F-5s have the necks set further back so the bridge is more centered on the soundboard.

[DavidKOS]

I think you mean a short neck Gibson mandolin. I believe that all Gibsons have the same scale length but the F-5s have the necks set further back so the bridge is more centered on the soundboard.

This was a shorter scale than the typical f hole models I've played - and not liked. This was a sweet instrument.

[brunello97]

This was a shorter scale than the typical f hole models I've played - and not liked. This was a sweet instrument.

Hmmm. My understanding was the same as Jim's, that my 1914A had the same scale length as a 1924F. But I am well known for being mistaken about things. It does have the same as my '50s EM150, which is an A-50 body......if I am not mistaken.

Any clarificationism would help.

Mick

[DavidKOS]

Hmmm. My understanding was the same as Jim's, that my 1914A had the same scale length as a 1924F. But I am well known for being mistaken about things. It does have the same as my '50s EM150, which is an A-50 body......if I am not mistaken.

Any clarificationism would help.

Mick

https://reverb.com/item/7607440-1934...-orig-f-5-case

"Here is a very rare example of a 1934 Gibson F-10 Mandolin. It is serial number 91332 and the Batch number is 1149-5. As all of these mandolins were this mandolin originally had a short scale length neck. However, this particular mandolin was converted to an F-5 scale length neck by master luthier Chris Berkov."

So the scale is not the same, it seems...

but maybe not the same as my European-style instruments...



https://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/s...-scale-lengths

but maybe not...

"As far as I know Orville decided on the longer 13 7/8" scale very early on and all his mandolins, and those of the Gibson company were 13 7/8". It was effectively one fret longer than the bowlback 13". Gibson historian Julius Bellson wrote thatat Orville was experimenting with a 15" scale, but the strings kept breaking with the increased tension and so settled on 13 7/8". I don't think the F-5 was any longer."

next post....

[DavidKOS]

13 7/8 to 14 1/8....

http://www.lmii.com/products/media-g...lypage-noimage

Plan, 1923 Lloyd Loar Gibson F5 mandolin

Scale length 13.938"

That's a bit longer....

http://www.stewmac.com/How-To/Online...Explained.html

Mandolin
# frets scale
Gibson F5 29 13.875"
Gibson A model 22 14.125"

So the winner is - Gibson had 2 scale lengths.

[mandopops]

I think there is a difference in the playability between my F5 & my ovals. The Ovals feel like a little less stretch & the strings are under less tension. The F5 has what I would say is a little more resistance.
Joe B

[DavidKOS]

I think there is a difference in the playability between my F5 & my ovals. The Ovals feel like a little less stretch & the strings are under less tension. The F5 has what I would say is a little more resistance.
Joe B

That may be why I never have warmed up to F5's.

[Jim Garber]

Sorry David, that Reverb seller is also mistaken and he did not have an original F-10. Retrofret has one. They say:

Overall length is 26 7/16 in. (67.1 cm.), 10 in. (25.4 cm.) wide at lower bout, and 1 3/4 in. (4.4 cm.) in depth, measured at side of rim. Scale length is 14 in. (356 mm.). Width of nut is 1 1/8 in. (29 mm.).

That is pretty close to the 13-7/8” standard. Gibson always stayed with that.

[brunello97]

Well, David, whatever the reason and whatever the math...welcome to the "dark side".

I'm glad you've discovered what I've been enjoying for years: playing the Italian repertoire on a '10s Gibson A...in addition to my shorter scale bowls and flatbacks.

That isn't quite the sartori I had when I discovered what you had been enjoying for years: the very pleasure of playing this amazing trove of music.

Mick