Octave mandolin in bluegrass

[rbrazz]

Does anyone out there play an octave mandolin in a band with dobro, banjo, mandolin, guitar, bass or whatever? How does it mix in? Is there a place for it or does it just get lost in the mid range mix in a traditional group?

[Dagger Gordon]

In a 'traditional' line-up I think you might be struggling. But Tim O'Brien, Eli West, Sarah Jorosz and others use them successfully in quite similar styles of music.

[foldedpath]

I have limited experience with this, where I've tried using my octave mandolin for a few tunes in a duo with a guitar player, where I'd normally play mandolin, or bottleneck slide Dobro. Sometimes other musicians would join us on fiddle or another guitar.

Your mileage may vary, but for me it didn't work well alongside guitar when it's played in a "natural" way, i.e. playing melody lines or arpeggiated/strummed accompaniment the way you'd play a mandolin. With just one guitar in the mix, the pitch and timbre is so close that an octave mandolin tends to get buried under the brighter sound of the guitar.

To make it work -- and we did make it work on a few tunes -- it requires arranging each tune so the two instruments stay out of each others' way. The guitar player has to back off in volume and play simpler chord inversions, or capo higher up the neck. Then the octave player has to back way off when the guitar is featured, to avoid too much mud in the mix. I finally gave up the effort because it was too much work to arrange space for each instrument with the music we were playing. Maybe others would have more success (or just work harder at it).

Here's one example, and you can see where they've worked out how to keep the octave and guitar out of each other's way:



Take the guitar out of the band and it can work well. Here's another Sierra Hull example, with just the OM, Dobro, and bass. The Dobro has a different enough timbre that the OM can be heard clearly, with no guitar competing for that space in the mix:



I've played the octave occasionally in Irish/Scottish trad sessions alongside a bunch of fiddles and other trad instruments, and usually one guitar. It works a little better in this context because everyone is going for a "melded" sound with unison playing, and the music isn't designed like Bluegrass to feature individual instruments in a sequence of solos.

[Joe Mendel]

It's not in the video, but you can hear it. It blends nicely if used the right way, that can be a tricky thing. Bryan McDowell does a great job on this song. And it happens to be an octave mandolin that I built!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FmWjCxEtIY8

[colorado_al]

There is a lot of tonal overlap but if you and the guitar player are good at listening to each other and providing space when one or the other is taking the lead, it can be great! It also depends on your arrangements. If one is playing rhythm up the neck and one lower, it can be a really great sound. Also great to trade off verse to verse which one is playing high and which one low. I think it actually gives the guitar player some room to stretch out since they are not expected to hold the mid section on every song.

[foldedpath]

One other quick point: In my post above, I was mainly discussing a band situation, where you have at least a chance of working out an arrangement that gives the OM and guitar separate sonic spaces to work in. In a casual Bluegrass jam the problems are magnified. Often there is more than one guitar player in the circle, if not the entire Guitar Army.


That's why I think the "natural home" of an octave mandolin is in non-Bluegrass styles of music like OldTime, Irish/Scottish trad, Swedish/Finnish music, etc. The examples above show that it can work in Bluegrass, but it's more of an uphill battle, I think.

[rbrazz]

Thank you all. I am in a bluegrass band. I play mandolin. A member who left 10 years ago is back and he is an excellent mandolin player. I play some fiddle but was wondering if an octave mandolin would work to help make room for him. Sounds like with all our instruments it would not be a good mix. I have a Weber mandolin I may try to trade for an octave mandolin and try. Sarah Jarosz sure sounds good.

[rbrazz]

Yhanks

[allenhopkins]

Might suggest you try mandola instead of octave. It sits sorta between mandolin and guitar, and can take leads either in the mandolin's (lower) range, or an octave below the mandolin's upper range. It also works well providing harmonies, counter-melodies, and sometimes a "darker" texture in songs that need that kind of sound.

I've seen several bluegrass bands, including Del McCoury's, where the mandolin player has used mandola for a song or two. If you and your mandolinist band-mate could work out some interplay, you might have a unique sound. I've played in a Celtic band with a mandolin and mandolin-banjo player, using both mandola and octave mandolin to try for a "harmonized" sound, and sometimes it's been surprisingly interesting.

You would have to learn to transpose your chord fingerings: G chords on mandolin = C chords on mandola, and so on. Takes adjustment, but can be done with a bit of practice and flexibility.

[mbruno]

I view it much the same way as bands with two guitar players. If guitarist plays up neck, you play down neck and etc. It can work really nicely but you have to rethink the chords so you can blend the notes well. The traditional mandolin chords may not work (and may not be accessible depending on how big their hands are). It's definitely doable - just treat it like a guitar.

I've been playing electric octave for a bit on an 8 string John Mann octave and just recently bought a 5 string Mann from the classifieds. They are electric but same tones as an acoustic generally when played clean with some reverb. The 5 string sounds MUCH clearer than the 8 string and is a lot easier to work with in a band setting. The 8 string can get muddy on the lower notes when there's a lot of people - especially if the tuning is slightly off between the strings. I much prefer the 5 string right now when playing octave, but it does lose the "mandolin-ness" of the 8 string though. Both however pair really nicely in a duo or trio with violin, uke, and brass.

My mandocello has the low C which is much more difficult to fit in with instruments like guitar and bass. You almost have to play with violins or other high instruments. I'm debating about selling mine - I just don't play it that much.

[foldedpath]

One more thing to consider if we're talking Bluegrass, is how fast can you move around on a long-scale instrument tuned in 5ths?

Bluegrass assumes solo breaks, at a fast tempo. You're going to move your hand and fingers around much more on a long-scale 5ths tuned instrument than you will on either guitar or mandolin. Sierra manages it in those clips above, but look at how much she's moving her hand and stretching her fingers, compared to a Bluegrass guitar player. And on the second clip I posted, she's capo'd at the second fret.

I'm not saying you can't do it; Sierra is great and manages with fairly small hands. But as someone who plays Irish/Scottish reels at dance tempos, I'll tell 'ya that my hand gets tired a lot faster doing that on my octave mandolin than my mandolin. I tend to play the fast stuff on mandolin, and the slower tunes on the OM. But then I'm an older guy and not exactly in my prime for this stuff. YMMV

[Chuck Leyda]

I play mostly octave mandolin in a trio with guitar and bass. We also play as a quartet adding a mandolin. Seems to work ok but we're not strictly bluegrass. Americana I guess but the OM doesn't need to be only for Celtic!
This is us as a trio:

[mbruno]

While it may slow you down, I dunno if I'd worried about movement really.

If you need to go faster than the fret spacings allow - move up the neck. At the 12th fret OM's sound like Mandolins and the spacing is similar.

If you want to keep the lower sound with fast movement, incorporating the open strings really helps. Certain songs that have a lot of closed position movement (i.e. Old Dangerfield) are harder to play fast compared to those with more open tunings (i.e. Little Liza Jane).

Another option altogether is to go for a 10 string OM like this https://themandolinstore.com/product...tom-10-string/. With that, you play more across the neck rather than up and down the neck - making movements easier and more "guitar" like.

[Marcus CA]

I view it much the same way as bands with two guitar players. If guitarist plays up neck, you play down neck and etc. It can work really nicely but you have to rethink the chords so you can blend the notes well. The traditional mandolin chords may not work (and may not be accessible depending on how big their hands are). It's definitely doable - just treat it like a guitar.

I play in a trio with a guitar player and a mandolin/mandola player. On songs, the second guy plays mandola, and I play mandolin. However, on fiddle tunes, he plays mandolin and I sometimes play octave.

Even though I'm in the same tonal range as our guitar player, his guitar has a sharp, crisp sound with a strong attack, while my OM has a full sound with lots of resonance. So, our breaks sound very different. Also, on rhythm, he plays the full bluegrass chords, while I mix in a lot of power chords with open strings (e.g., sometimes playing a G chord as 0-5-5-x instead of 0-0-2-3), which expands the sound behind the mandolin breaks and somewhat replaces the guitar during the guitar breaks.

[Alex Orr]

This might be an unpopular opinion, but I think an octave mandolin in a bluegrass setting sounds like a really bad idea, but then again, I'm something of a bluegrass traditionalist. Even in that first Sierra Hull clip I think the song would have sounded better with her on mando.

[mbruno]

I play in a trio with a guitar player and a mandolin/mandola player. On songs, the second guy plays mandola, and I play mandolin. However, on fiddle tunes, he plays mandolin and I sometimes play octave.

Even though I'm in the same tonal range as our guitar player, his guitar has a sharp, crisp sound with a strong attack, while my OM has a full sound with lots of resonance. So, our breaks sound very different. Also, on rhythm, he plays the full bluegrass chords, while I mix in a lot of power chords with open strings (e.g., sometimes playing a G chord as 0-5-5-x instead of 0-0-2-3), which expands the sound behind the mandolin breaks and somewhat replaces the guitar during the guitar breaks.

I think we're saying the same thing. While the sounds might be different - if you both play the same tones of a chord in the same way (i.e. G, B, D) - it could get really muddy. I'm willing to bet you all do not play the same exact chords (i.e. same exact timbre and etc) but rather play the same chords with different inversions and/or different timbre.