To use one’s pinkie or not part 2

[Jairo Ramos]

I think that there are no benefits of not using one’s pinky. If we have four fingers, why not use them? Using the pinky is an excellent way to enhance the skills playing any instrument. I'm studying now the old classical methods for mandolin (Munier, Bickford, etc), the Marilynn Mair's book, August Watters' book, and I found that from the beginning all of them have an intensive use of the pinky. We need the pinky to play in different positions up the neck, even if you want to learn lef hand pizzicato, the pinky is there.

I found too that in my Bowlback is more easy to use the pinky, my A style mandolin has a longer scale and is harder. So I make the same exercises in both mandolins...

In Don Julin's Exercises Book one of the patterns for scales, arpeggios, etc. begins with the pinky. Ted Eschliman's Jazz Mandolin (waiting in my desk) have and intensive use of the pinky(FFcP). However, music is music, with or without the pinky...Django with his two fingers was a master!

[OldSausage]

Okay, at the risk of igniting a pinky war, here are some reasons why a person might choose NOT to use their pinky. I would like to point out that this is in no way an endorsement of the no-pinky lifestyle. Note that this only applies to playing melody, not to playing chords, where it remains an abomination to not use your pinky. Also note that this mainly applies to bluegrass picking, although I would say it also applies to jazz. It probably doesn't apply to any style where you are supposed to just play the notes on the page and be a good boy/girl.

1. Many violinists are trained to use their pinky to play at the 7th fret in first position. Mandolinists should avoid this because it is a waste of a fine open string, and anyway it sounds way cooler if you slide your third finger up to the seventh fret while playing the open string above it at the same time.

2. Many people find it very difficult to execute a flawless slide with their pinky, since it requires both strength and a large pad on the end of your finger to keep from fluffing it and muting the note by mistake.

3. Using your pinky can tend to lock you in to playing in one position, and you can often be more creative and expressive by shifting positions up and down the fingerboard. It encourages you to notice new patterns, and to incorporate slides into those patterns, and it is very easy to learn and play three finger shifting patterns.

None of this means you SHOULD not use your pinky. It just means that you CAN eschew the pinky and do very well. Many people have reported that what at first look like limitations can turn out to be structures that help to support their creativity.

[Erok]

4 strings/courses. 4 fingers.

Thread done.

[OldSausage]

4 strings/courses. 4 fingers.

Thread done.

I'd like to see you play guitar.

[catmandu2]

4 strings/courses. 4 fingers.

Thread done.

You have a future in government.

While this rationale may seem logical, it makes little practical sense.

[Bertram Henze]

You have a future in government.

While this rationale may seem logical, it makes little practical sense.

Actually, in advertising. Making things sound logical is essential for that.

In a similar vein, you can listen to oval-hole instruments with one ear, while you need two for hearing f-holed ones.

[DavidKOS]

I'm studying now the old classical methods for mandolin (Munier, Bickford, etc), the Marilynn Mair's book, August Watters' book, and I found that from the beginning all of them have an intensive use of the pinky. We need the pinky to play in different positions up the neck, even if you want to learn left hand pizzicato, the pinky is there.

I found too that in my Bowlback is more easy to use the pinky, my A style mandolin has a longer scale and is harder. So I make the same exercises in both mandolins...

Last part first - of course the traditional scale length is easier to finger than the overly-long Gibson scale!

I'm glad you are looking at what I consider the finest method books around. These books use the full range of mandolin techniques - and you NEED all 4 fingers.

Case closed.

1. Many violinists are trained to use their pinky to play at the 7th fret in first position. Mandolinists should avoid this because it is a waste of a fine open string, and anyway it sounds way cooler if you slide your third finger up to the seventh fret while playing the open string above it at the same time.

2. Many people find it very difficult to execute a flawless slide with their pinky, since it requires both strength and a large pad on the end of your finger to keep from fluffing it and muting the note by mistake.

3. Using your pinky can tend to lock you in to playing in one position, and you can often be more creative and expressive by shifting positions up and down the fingerboard. It encourages you to notice new patterns, and to incorporate slides into those patterns, and it is very easy to learn and play three finger shifting patterns.

None of this means you SHOULD not use your pinky. It just means that you CAN eschew the pinky and do very well. Many people have reported that what at first look like limitations can turn out to be structures that help to support their creativity.

1. Classical mandolinists are trained like violinists, and would prefer to use the closed E on string 2 than the open in in many situations. You are thinking like a folk/BG player here. In that case, the ringing open strings are a useful sound.

2. So they need to practice the 4th finger slides!

3. "Using your pinky can tend to lock you into playing in one position"

Exact opposite opinion here - NOT using your 4th finger will certainly lock you into shifting positions WAY more often than needed.

Plus it opens you up to ALL the upper positions, playing without the 4th finger often locks you into first position.

"It just means that you CAN eschew the pinky and do very well"

Maybe for certain styles, certain songs, etc.

In the long run it is a limitation, unless NOT using finger 4 is a music choice and not a lack of ability.

I'd like to see you play guitar.

I assume you use the 4th finger on guitar?

This whole "don't need the 4th finger" thing is not even a possible issue in the Italian, jazz, Klezmer and Classical worlds.

Only musical traditions that play almost exclusively in first position, use a lot of ringing open string, and keys of C, G, A, E, D, and related minors could even consider getting by without use of finger 4.

I have at times imitated Django's 2 finger playing; some of the Asian instruments use fingers 1 and or 1, 2 and 3 almost exclusively.

Yes you can play a lot of music with very few fingers!

But we are talking about manolin.

Unless you play in a genre that you can get away with no 4th finger, well, good for you - but that does not apply to the greater mandolin world.

Why do I feel that these justifications for not using finger 4 are merely excuses for not taking the time and effort to learn to playing properly - or are VERY genre specific and even then dubious?

[OldSausage]

Why do I feel that these justifications for not using finger 4 are merely excuses for not taking the time and effort to learn to playing properly - or are VERY genre specific and even then dubious?

That is a great question. I hope you find the answer some day.

[DavidKOS]

That is a great question. I hope you find the answer some day.

Frankly, I hope I do too.

I do appreciate your POV, though, thank you.

[Jstring]

There is no advantage to refusing to use the fourth finger on your fretting hand. End of story.

Check both threads... I can’t find a single post in which someone says that they “refuse to use the fourth finger” or suggests that others should avoid using the pinky... This isn’t directed at you, Alex, but I’m not sure where this is coming from.

I do think there’s more than a whiff of condescension from the classical / jazz players in a lot of these posts.... directed at the simple-minded bluegrass / oldtime / folk players who just don’t know much about “serious” music, technique, or pinky use.

I’ve experienced this a LOT over the years... I’m not the most accomplished player here but I play in many contexts. I gig for money... I’ve been first chair / first mandolin in a mandolin orchestra... I play in a jazz trio...but I’m primarily a bluegrass / old time player.
Number of times I’ve heard a bluegrass / oldtime player disparage jazz or classical music? Literally zero...NEVER. Number of times I’ve heard a classical or jazz player disparage “hillbilly music”, “that three-chord stuff”, “hee-haw songs” or simply make a yuck- face when bluegrass or oldtime is mentioned? More than I could count.

I don’t get offended by much, so those comments don’t bother me. It’s a free country.

My upcoming weekend:
I’ll be playing Irish music on mandolin this Saturday with some friends. I’d invite my jazz guitarist friend (great pinky player, obviously) but the 9/8 rhythms aggravate him so much he won’t do it.

I’ll be playing Appalachian fiddle on Sunday evening at a session. I have some friends who are awesome on violin (and pinky masters!) but they can’t play a note by ear so they won’t come.

I’ll be jamming on bluegrass with a bass player friend next week. It will just be us, because my classical mandolin friends (more pinky masters!) don’t know any chords, not even the two- finger variety, let alone chop chords. They don’t enjoy improvising either.

I’ll be using my pinky every time it helps. If it’s faster or cooler to hit an open string or slide to the 7th fret with the 3rd finger, that’s what I’ll do. None of my classical friends will be there to roll their eyes at me!

[DavidKOS]

I do think there’s more than a whiff of condescension from the classical / jazz players in a lot of these posts.... directed at the simple-minded bluegrass / oldtime / folk players who just don’t know much about “serious” music, technique, or pinky use.

I’ve experienced this a LOT over the years... I’m primarily a bluegrass / old time player.
Number of times I’ve heard a bluegrass / oldtime player disparage jazz or classical music? Literally zero...NEVER. Number of times I’ve heard a classical or jazz player disparage “hillbilly music”, “that three-chord stuff”, “hee-haw songs” or simply make a yuck- face when bluegrass or oldtime is mentioned? More than I could count.
!

Any jazz/classical/whatever musician that is disparaging or condescending to other musicians based on repertoire is acting boorishly.
Even me sometimes...but I also appreciate folk music, traditional music, etc.

Mostly I've been trying to make a point about only not using the 4th finger by choice of musical reasons - and to study the classical mandolin methods to see what the instrument is capable of.

But what Jstring says is true, and I've seen it more among jazz players - and some rock players - than among classical players.

BUT

I have also seen what in this context would be reverse discrimination from the "bluegrass / oldtime / folk players". Without adding even more to this whole thread, most of us have also seen the traditional/folk/ethnic/Bluegrass/Celtic/whatever players say or act in a way that suggest that they look down on the people that do not play their way...and maybe worse, try to!

Good manners among musicians are appreciated, no matter what style.

[Alex Orr]

Check both threads... I can’t find a single post in which someone says that they “refuse to use the fourth finger” or suggests that others should avoid using the pinky... This isn’t directed at you, Alex, but I’m not sure where this is coming from.

I do think there’s more than a whiff of condescension from the classical / jazz players in a lot of these posts.... directed at the simple-minded bluegrass / oldtime / folk players who just don’t know much about “serious” music, technique, or pinky use.

I'm really not intending to be condescending. I ONLY play bluegrass, so I really try to avoid being condescending towards the genre

I also don't think it's condescending to say, "using your pinky can only help. Yeah, it's hard at first. That's what practice is for, so stop whining and get to woodshedding." Barre chords are tough on the guitar. Do you need them to play? No...but if you suggested that you'd rather not learn them because they're hard at first and then try to find some serious guitar players to justify that there is no advantage to playing them, then you're likely SOL. Learning a backhand is hard in tennis. You can play without one, but try finding a decent player who will agree that you really don't have to learn how to hit one and you'll be looking for a long time. I don't think it's condescending to be a bit irked at someone who may be starting out and is asking for people to justify a terrible playing habit simply because it may be too frustrating at first to just learn the skill they're avoiding. Obviously if there is some reason, such as the person maybe not having a pinky, then this is all moot, but if someone has a healthy left hand, is sincerely trying to learn to play the mandolin, and is avoiding pinky use because it's hard, then I have no sympathy for that position. I realize I'm taking a firm stand, but I feel that in a case like this, experienced players should take a firm stand and point out some of the most basic facts about trying to achieve mastery in any field: it will take lots of time, it will take lots of practice, many of the skills will be very difficult at first and that is why you simply have to bite the bullet, be very patient with yourself, and practice your butt off.

[Jstring]

Totally agree with everything you said, Alex... I liked the tennis metaphor.

I guess I was scratching my head (and Old Sausage is as well, I believe) because no one’s saying not to use the pinky, everyone agrees it’s an important skill. The only real disparity is that some people (especially among the bluegrass crowd) are suggesting that they don’t ALWAYS use it- sometimes they switch position or slide etc... and it’s getting interpreted as a “refusal to use the 4th finger”?.... huh?!?

Rest of my post was just general thoughts

Typical Cafe mountain out of less than a molehill...

Family just went to bed... time to go practice!

[DavidKOS]

I don't think it's condescending to be a bit irked at someone who may be starting out and is asking for people to justify a terrible playing habit simply because it may be too frustrating at first to just learn the skill they're avoiding. Obviously if there is some reason, such as the person maybe not having a pinky, then this is all moot, but if someone has a healthy left hand, is sincerely trying to learn to play the mandolin, and is avoiding pinky use because it's hard, then I have no sympathy for that position. .

Hey, I'm with you on this!

I guess I was scratching my head (and Old Sausage is as well, I believe) because no one’s saying not to use the pinky, everyone agrees it’s an important skill. The only real disparity is that some people (especially among the bluegrass crowd) are suggesting that they don’t ALWAYS use it- sometimes they switch position or slide etc... and it’s getting interpreted as a “refusal to use the 4th finger”?.... huh?!?

It often sounds like they are looking for justification to not use the 4th finger.

[OldSausage]

It often sounds like they are looking for justification to not use the 4th finger.

I could play with a rubber chicken if I feel like it and if it helps me communicate what I want to say. But if I start explaining why I do it to someone who thinks rubber chickens are not at all funny and imply moral failings in their possessor, I'm always going to sound to them like I'm just "looking for justification" to whip out my chicken again.

[Tom Wright]

Quoting Jethro Burns to young student Donnie Stiernberg: "If you're not going to use that pinky, can I have it?"

[bobby bill]

Number of times I’ve heard a bluegrass / oldtime player disparage jazz or classical music? Literally zero...NEVER.

I think maybe you haven't been looking hard enough. Check out the numerous, lengthy, religious threads on whether it is superior to play by ear or from notes (answer: yes it is) and inevitably the old saw turns up about the talented classical musician so handicapped by her ability to read music that she cannot even play Happy Birthday by ear. Admittedly, this is more about the musician than the music, but I see it in the same light. I have also played classical, hillbilly, and several genres in between, and I do not really see any particular genre as owning the market on condescension.

[AlanN]

Quoting Jethro Burns to young student Donnie Stiernberg: "If you're not going to use that pinky, can I have it?"

Playing Flickin' My Pick benefits from pinky use tremendously. It can be done w/o using the little feller, but why do it that way?

[JeffD]

I I do not really see any particular genre as owning the market on condescension.

Its the tea drinking musicians, who sip with pinky pointed up, who drive me crazy.

[catmandu2]

And, lo, the Great Pinky Wars continued. Chickens were brought in to further bolster the dialectic, and talk of whippings. Yet even this, nor other colorful metaphors would sway opponents to either side. Other varieties of barnyard animals would soon emerge, and still more talk of whippings. Neither side would budge, so great was the ideological divide...

Soon it would be Thanksgiving, and talk of whipping chickens would turn to still larger fowl. The wars raged on, through the Holy festival times, and beyond. Men grew old, withered by battle and vigilance. Children cried; women consoled them. Yet, there was no end in sight.

Suddenly, a new figure appeared on the horizon, who spoke of a completely different pinky, one not even on the same hand. THIS pinky, it was said, should be planted, to sow a great uniformity among all peoples. And lo, their pinkies they did plant. And all was well.

[Jstring]

I think maybe you haven't been looking hard enough. I have also played classical, hillbilly, and several genres in between, and I do not really see any particular genre as owning the market on condescension.

I don't know... Every bluegrass or old time organization / jam / meet-up I've ever played in has been incredibly welcoming towards anybody who wanted to play with them.... regardless of skill level or background or technique used or PINKY SKILL....I honestly have never heard any of those people disparage classical or jazz as an art form. Maybe rap....not really a rap crowd!

I'll grant you: I see your point about playing by ear. If you go to an old-time jam, and whip out sheet music...you'll get some eye rolls. But I don't think that's really in the same league as the generalized condescension that classical /jazz players exhibit towards bluegrass or old time.

Ever go on any violin forums and read posts about Mark O'Connor? ( I'm not defending his opinions or behavior; I know many people feel he's unhinged) But what about his playing? Unless your name is Hilary Hahn, Mark O'Connor is going to play any piece in any genre better than you. Still, classical violinists refer to him as a "fiddler", an "American player"....any dog-whistle term you want to use that implies "not a real violinist and not one of us"

I guess i just see some of that in this debate: Classical / jazz players feel that they have the right to define what is / isn't correct technique, and get a little patronizing towards players in other genres.

The very fact that a statement like "Sometimes I use a slide or open string" gets (mis)interpreted as "rejecting use of the 4th finger" is evidence of this....

Well, I'm personally pretty bored with this. If my opinions offended anyone, I didn't mean to. For the record, I think pinky skill is important and we should all make a conscious effort to work on it!

[catmandu2]

Actually, in advertising.

Is there a difference?

[bobby bill]

Its the tea drinking musicians, who sip with pinky pointed up, who drive me crazy

I choose not to use my pinky whilst drinking me tea.

[bobby bill]

Okay, I'm going to start a thread: Can I just play eighth notes or should I play sixteenth notes, too?

[des]

I choose not to use my pinky whilst drinking me tea.

I can't bring myself to use my pinky - I far prefer to use my little finger (on this side of the Atlantic pinky sounds .. well how shall I put it .. twee? cute?)