Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 25 of 29

Thread: pick direction practice advice

  1. #1
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Jan 2017
    Location
    Northern Illinois
    Posts
    35

    Default pick direction practice advice

    I'm still very much a beginner at this stage, about 9 months in to trying to be more serious about practicing and improving on the mandolin. One thing I know I need to work on is pick direction, as in here. I resisted this idea at first, but I've watched so many videos of good players and watching that effortlessly rhythmic right hand technique is just mesmerizing.

    My hang up is that it is an _agonizingly_ slow process, ha! I'm starting back with the simplest tunes I know and staring at a very slow metronome app while I play. Without that, I still want to do things like continue a down (or up) stroke to hit two eighth notes in a row on adjacent strings. I am making progress.

    I guess I'd just like to hear other people's experiences, what they did to overcome this hump, what they believe (or not) that the payoffs are. And maybe a little encouragement, too...

  2. #2
    Innocent Bystander JeffD's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    Upstate New York
    Posts
    24,807
    Blog Entries
    56

    Default Re: pick direction practice advice

    Nine months is not a lot of time. To sound like you have been playing ten years takes about a decade.

    There is more distress ahead, as I am finding out. Yes the "rules" given in the link are excellent. But I am learning that in classical music at least, rules are made to be broken. I get more than a few admonitions to do this type of picking here, and that type there, and tremolo through this here.

    So, three points to consider:

    You have to learn how to pick.

    The patterns offered in the link are an excellent place to start.

    What ever you learn eventually you will need to unlearn, to a degree, in order to accommodate exceptions.

    Aren't you glad you asked?
    A talent for trivializin' the momentous and complicatin' the obvious.

    The entire staff
    funny....

  3. The following members say thank you to JeffD for this post:


  4. #3

    Default Re: pick direction practice advice

    Be thrilled you are only 9 months in. The more cemented doing it the wrong way is, the harder it is to do it the right way.

    Part of my practice routine is something I call "Divide the Beat". I set my metronome around 80 bpm then I play scales working through ffcp positions:

    1) 1/4 notes downstrokes (thinking only about tone)
    2) 1/8 down up (evenness between up and down)
    3) triplets D-U-D then U-D-U (accent 1st beat)
    4) 1/16 DUDU (clarity and even)

    These are what I consider the basic rhythmic units. I also try to play with these:

    Three groups of 1/8ths + 1/16ths can fill a beat:

    1) 1/8th + 2/16s
    2) 2/16ths + 1/8th
    3) 1/16th + 1/8th + 1/16th

    The dotted 8th patterns that fill a beat:

    1) dotted 8th + 1/16th
    2) 1/16th + dotted 8th

    There you have all of the 9 most common rhythmic figures that fill a beat. These are the building blocks (along with rests) that form pretty much every rhythm you will encounter. You can mix and match these to make nearly infinite exercises.

  5. The following members say thank you to dadsaster for this post:


  6. #4
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Location
    Va
    Posts
    2,573

    Default Re: pick direction practice advice

    As Jeff said there must be varying pick movement or you will sound like a machine. The real trick is learning where to break the down-up picking, and I don't think anyone does it in 9 months. Keep working on it but don't go over board with one picking technique. We are supposed to be training to be musicians not robots and while there are ways that seem to work best for most of us, and should be tried seriously, we are all different.

  7. #5
    Innocent Bystander JeffD's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    Upstate New York
    Posts
    24,807
    Blog Entries
    56

    Default Re: pick direction practice advice

    In one classical music workshop we were given an exercise designed to break us of any rigorous adherence to a picking system. We were challenged to learn DUDD-UDUU DUDD-UDUU and to do sales with that pattern. It is really hard, and feels like it could drive me to stammering and stuttering, if not catatonia.
    A talent for trivializin' the momentous and complicatin' the obvious.

    The entire staff
    funny....

  8. #6

    Default Re: pick direction practice advice

    Quote Originally Posted by JeffD View Post
    In one classical music workshop we were given an exercise designed to break us of any rigorous adherence to a picking system. We were challenged to learn DUDD-UDUU DUDD-UDUU and to do sales with that pattern. It is really hard, and feels like it could drive me to stammering and stuttering, if not catatonia.
    Paradiddle!

  9. #7
    Innocent Bystander JeffD's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    Upstate New York
    Posts
    24,807
    Blog Entries
    56

    Default Re: pick direction practice advice

    Quote Originally Posted by ampyjoe View Post
    Paradiddle!
    Exactly.
    A talent for trivializin' the momentous and complicatin' the obvious.

    The entire staff
    funny....

  10. #8
    Registered User Bob Visentin's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Decatur, GA
    Posts
    254

    Default Re: pick direction practice advice

    While I have practiced tremolo like a 7 stroke roll I never thought to try other drum rudiments. What fun!

  11. The following members say thank you to Bob Visentin for this post:


  12. #9
    The Amateur Mandolinist Mark Gunter's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Location
    South of Cleburne, North of Hillsboro, Texas
    Posts
    5,091

    Default Re: pick direction practice advice

    Quote Originally Posted by MandoBoris View Post
    ... but I've watched so many videos of good players and watching that effortlessly rhythmic right hand technique is just mesmerizing.

    My hang up is that it is an _agonizingly_ slow process ...

    I guess I'd just like to hear other people's experiences, what they did to overcome this hump, what they believe (or not) that the payoffs are. And maybe a little encouragement, too...
    OK, encouragement first

    You can rest assured that the payoff will be huge over time as you master this ... or any other technique that you make the commitment to mastering! Another thing, it won't take as long as you might think. When you undertake to learn a new technique, even if it seems unnatural at first, if you persevere you're likely to find that one day, like magic, it just clicks and before long you'll wonder how it was ever troublesome because it will come so easily.

    Opinions are cheap, and plentiful, and vary from person to person. In my opinion, what you are learning right now about pick direction is one of the most important and fundamental lessons you'll ever learn. Of course there are exceptions to the alternating pick stroke technique - there are different rhythms and different time signatures, and good reasons to do things differently - BUT the majority of 4/4 and 2/4 music for folk, old-time, bluegrass, country, gospel and rock music can be played primarily with an alternating pick pattern and should be done. The reason is simple, and I'll call it groove. Your groove should very much be in your right hand. You alluded to this - "good players ... that effortlessly rhythmic right hand technique".

    So again, my opinion, master this early on. But I think it is very important to learn some other patterns as well, as soon as you are able to make the DUDU alternating pattern smooth and rhythmic. Once you have it, I'd suggest learning some jigs using the classic jig DUDDUD pattern. Also, learn how to handle triplets that occur in your 4/4 and 2/4 tunes. You can vary the right hand to pick each note of a triplet, or you can keep the groove going and use pull-offs and hammer-ons to play triplets. In the days, months, years ahead it will pay to master as many different techniques as possible.

    And finally, accept that (1) there is never going to be an end to your learning if you stick with it, and (2) slowing way down and taking plenty of time to master new material and new techniques is a requirement that a musician never really "grows out of." So starting back with the simplest tunes you know, slowing them way down and focusing on technique and musicality is always a good thing. Enjoy the scenery. You can rest assured that the payoff will be huge over time.
    WWW.THEAMATEURMANDOLINIST.COM
    ----------------------------------
    "Life is short. Play hard." - AlanN

    ----------------------------------
    HEY! The Cafe has Social Groups, check 'em out. I'm in these groups:
    Newbies Social Group | The Song-A-Week Social
    The Woodshed Study Group | Blues Mando
    - Advice For Mandolin Beginners
    - YouTube Stuff

  13. The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to Mark Gunter For This Useful Post:


  14. #10
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Jan 2017
    Location
    Northern Illinois
    Posts
    35

    Default Re: pick direction practice advice

    Thank you, Mark. You've given me a lot to digest there, maybe more than I expected. I get there are exceptions to the rules, like many people here have said, but I feel like there are some fundamentals it would be useful to have down. I guess I was just looking for some perspective, thank you so very much.

  15. The following members say thank you to MandoBoris for this post:


  16. #11
    Innocent Bystander JeffD's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    Upstate New York
    Posts
    24,807
    Blog Entries
    56

    Default Re: pick direction practice advice

    Unless there is notation or a recommendation to the contrary, I do DUDU, just about everywhere. I have done other pattern for jigs, but not routinely.

    DUDU is a good place to start.
    A talent for trivializin' the momentous and complicatin' the obvious.

    The entire staff
    funny....

  17. #12
    Registered User Bob Visentin's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Decatur, GA
    Posts
    254

    Default Re: pick direction practice advice

    I would like to add practice with a metronome every now and then too.

  18. The following members say thank you to Bob Visentin for this post:


  19. #13
    Registered User wildpikr's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Louisiana, USA
    Posts
    703

    Default Re: pick direction practice advice

    Quote Originally Posted by MandoBoris View Post
    I'm still very much a beginner at this stage, about 9 months in to trying to be more serious about practicing and improving on the mandolin. One thing I know I need to work on is pick direction, as in here. I resisted this idea at first, but I've watched so many videos of good players and watching that effortlessly rhythmic right hand technique is just mesmerizing.

    My hang up is that it is an _agonizingly_ slow process, ha! I'm starting back with the simplest tunes I know and staring at a very slow metronome app while I play. Without that, I still want to do things like continue a down (or up) stroke to hit two eighth notes in a row on adjacent strings. I am making progress.

    I guess I'd just like to hear other people's experiences, what they did to overcome this hump, what they believe (or not) that the payoffs are. And maybe a little encouragement, too...
    MandoBoris,

    Here are a couple of links to a workshop by John Moore...he affirms the DUDU pick direction well...

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HCP9HbyKvLw

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ojjtvv2l5vs

    Hope this helps...
    Mike

    Those who think they should think, like they think others think they should think, need to think out their thinking, I think.

    No envejecemos, maduramos. -Pablo Picasso

  20. The following members say thank you to wildpikr for this post:


  21. #14
    Registered User Sherry Cadenhead's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2017
    Location
    Irving, TX
    Posts
    925

    Default Re: pick direction practice advice

    I'm wondering about pick direction also. Like MandoBoris I'm a relative newbie to the mandolin, my first instrument to learn. I need a basic rule of thumb for now. My 2-1/2 year teacher is a professional violinist with a master's degree in music education. She has taught me to use down up for quarter and faster notes. I just started with a mandolin teacher who says I should use down down for quarter notes. At this point, at least, DD seems very inefficient, for lack of a better word.

  22. #15
    two t's and one hyphen fatt-dad's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2003
    Location
    Richmond, Virginia
    Posts
    7,635

    Default Re: pick direction practice advice

    I also strive for DUDU. . .

    Sometimes I get upside down. That's a mind game! Just keep going and keep the tempo!

    My advice? Go to jams!

    f-d
    ¡papá gordo ain’t no madre flaca!

    '20 A3, '30 L-1, '97 914, 2012 Cohen A5, 2012 Muth A5, '14 OM28A

  23. #16
    The Amateur Mandolinist Mark Gunter's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Location
    South of Cleburne, North of Hillsboro, Texas
    Posts
    5,091

    Default Re: pick direction practice advice

    Sherry, depends on time signature. Like in 4/4 time, each quarter note gets a full beat. The alternating pick pattern (DUDU) means that downstrokes fall on the beat (1 2 3 4) and upstrokes go between the beat ( & ) 1 & 2 & 3 & 4

    This keeps the right hand moving up and down in a steady rhythm. To play in alternating pattern, you would use a series of downstrokes to play a string of quarter notes, and DUDU to play a string of eighth notes - but the important thing about the note values is where they fall in the rhythm of the song. It's the beat, the rhythm, or the groove, that is important.

    It might help if your teacher will teach you about rhythm rather than only about notes and note values. Music is meant to be heard (and felt) rather than seen. We write it down as a means of preserving or teaching it - the groove comes first, written notes hopefully can help you understand it. Your mandolin teacher has the right idea. He learned with a pick rather than a bow.
    Last edited by Mark Gunter; Oct-28-2017 at 11:23am.
    WWW.THEAMATEURMANDOLINIST.COM
    ----------------------------------
    "Life is short. Play hard." - AlanN

    ----------------------------------
    HEY! The Cafe has Social Groups, check 'em out. I'm in these groups:
    Newbies Social Group | The Song-A-Week Social
    The Woodshed Study Group | Blues Mando
    - Advice For Mandolin Beginners
    - YouTube Stuff

  24. #17
    harvester of clams Bill McCall's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2014
    Location
    Forest Grove, Oregon
    Posts
    2,776

    Default Re: pick direction practice advice

    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Gunter View Post
    .......depends on time signature. Like in 4/4 time, each quarter note gets a full beat. The alternating pick pattern (DUDU) means that downstrokes fall on the beat (1 2 3 4) and upstrokes go between the beat ( & ) 1 & 2 & 3 & 4.
    As pointed out before, there are many specific styles that use non DUDU picking, including jigs, classical, gypsy Monroe licks and others I’m sure, but the basic technique is as quoted above. Much swing music starts with an eighth rest followed by a quarter, but that quarter should be played with an upstroke.

    Of course, anybody can play anything in any manner, but speed, efficiency and tone quality start with a smooth, consistent right hand, with equal up and downstrokes.

    If it were easy, we’d all sound like Chris Thile.
    Ymmv
    Not all the clams are at the beach

    Arrow Manouche
    Arrow Jazzbo
    Arrow G
    Clark 2 point
    Gibson F5L
    Gibson A-4
    Ratliff CountryBoy A

  25. The following members say thank you to Bill McCall for this post:


  26. #18
    The Amateur Mandolinist Mark Gunter's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Location
    South of Cleburne, North of Hillsboro, Texas
    Posts
    5,091

    Default Re: pick direction practice advice

    A better way to think about it might be to forget "pick strokes" for a moment, and think of the right hand instead. The right hand takes a steady motion of DUDUDU in time to the beat. The pick strikes the string(s) at the appropriate time on the way up or down to play the melody notes in time with the beat. So there will be no pick contact wherever there is no note in the melody. The important thing is to keep the groove with your right hand. If you do that, the melody determines whether you skip an upstroke or downstroke with the pick, while the hand maintains the beat.

    Some of the best sounding syncopated rhythms may give you fits until you learn the value of keeping a groove with the right hand, and the value of silence - rests - or mutes - and where they fall in DUDU pattern. This is where simple, straight time tunes usually when written will have successive down strokes on written quarter notes, and down/up for successive eighth notes.

    Like Bill says, you can play it any way you want to, and the DUDU stuff taught in Scott's lesson (see link in OP) and in the workshop shared by wildpikr (see links in message 13) may not be easy for a beginner to grasp, but IMO you should master this early on.
    WWW.THEAMATEURMANDOLINIST.COM
    ----------------------------------
    "Life is short. Play hard." - AlanN

    ----------------------------------
    HEY! The Cafe has Social Groups, check 'em out. I'm in these groups:
    Newbies Social Group | The Song-A-Week Social
    The Woodshed Study Group | Blues Mando
    - Advice For Mandolin Beginners
    - YouTube Stuff

  27. #19

    Default Re: pick direction practice advice

    Quote Originally Posted by Sherryc View Post
    I'm wondering about pick direction also. Like MandoBoris I'm a relative newbie to the mandolin, my first instrument to learn. I need a basic rule of thumb for now. My 2-1/2 year teacher is a professional violinist with a master's degree in music education. She has taught me to use down up for quarter and faster notes. I just started with a mandolin teacher who says I should use down down for quarter notes. At this point, at least, DD seems very inefficient, for lack of a better word.
    Your new mandolin teacher is correct (IMO). You can think of playing DDD on quarter notes to be the same as D-U-D-U eighth notes where the U is silent. Eventually you will be able to seamlessly move between eighth notes and quarter notes.

  28. The following members say thank you to dadsaster for this post:


  29. #20

    Default Re: pick direction practice advice

    About 85 percent of the time, I don't think about my pick direction at all. Either UDUD or DUDU seems to just happen, I think - I mean, if I even think about it.

    Sometimes when playing slow to midtempo music, I'll arbitrarily pick UUU or DDD for awhile, just for s____s and giggles. I get a nice "pop" to my notes while picking UUU - kinda "hooking" the string, as it were.

    Good luck, and the more metronome time you put in, the better.

  30. The following members say thank you to Tate Ferguson for this post:


  31. #21
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Location
    Va
    Posts
    2,573

    Default Re: pick direction practice advice

    I disagree that the hand must keep moving to keep the time. If I play a note that I want to sustain for a beat I don’t move my hand in a phantom note. I wait for the best. Some may need the phantom note, I don’t. I know someone starting out needs some “rules” to abide by, bu5 wouldn’t it be better to say this is one way try it, here’s another way, which feels better to you. The same thing applies to which finger to use in any given situation as another thread is working on now. Watch the pickers you admire,you’ll probably see each does just a little different. Look at all the times Monroe just down stroked, one whole instrumental (Bluegress Stomp), anyone think there was phantom strokes between each of those? Wouldn’t it have been more efficient to play Dudu, wouldn’t it have sounded compleatly different? We are playing music not learning some set of rules so we all sound the same. End of rant

  32. The following members say thank you to Mandoplumb for this post:


  33. #22
    The Amateur Mandolinist Mark Gunter's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Location
    South of Cleburne, North of Hillsboro, Texas
    Posts
    5,091

    Default Re: pick direction practice advice

    "Hand must keep moving all the time" - not the point. Only that beginners will benefit from finding and feeling the groove of the song, rather than worrying over which dots on a page to play up or down. Bill, for instance, if he played all downstrokes in Bluegrass Stomp, then he had "phantom" upstrokes - rest upstrokes - whatever you want to call them - his hand went up and down a bit in time, else he wouldn't have played in time, 'cause you can't have a downstroke without moving your pick up to go back down again. This is just what I don't get about every thread that deals with this kind of pick stroke discussion - is that there are always at least one bluegrasser who has to naysay the idea and they like to point to Bill. Bill has been recorded on video, you can watch his right hand and see that he keeps time with it. Also, that he does so like other great players do.

    The point is not that your hand has to move in a phantom beat; the point is that the groove is there and this is a good way to teach a beginning musician. The brain actually keeps the beat, and you don't have to move your hand consciously to keep the time - but if you are moving your hand randomly off the beat, or striking the strings out of time, then ... what are playing? I suspect that BG musicians play in time and move their right hands to the groove despite how much a few of them deny this.

    Watch any of your favorite players, Bill included, watch for the norm not any purposeful exceptions, and if they are not rhythmically moving their hand up and down to the beat, I'll buy you a round of beers, a bottle of wine, or a pint of whiskey. Your choice.
    WWW.THEAMATEURMANDOLINIST.COM
    ----------------------------------
    "Life is short. Play hard." - AlanN

    ----------------------------------
    HEY! The Cafe has Social Groups, check 'em out. I'm in these groups:
    Newbies Social Group | The Song-A-Week Social
    The Woodshed Study Group | Blues Mando
    - Advice For Mandolin Beginners
    - YouTube Stuff

  34. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Mark Gunter For This Useful Post:


  35. #23
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Location
    Va
    Posts
    2,573

    Default Re: pick direction practice advice

    Mark after your explanation I agree with what you say, but if I’ve been playing 50 years and got the impression from previous post that your hand is supposed to flap around like patting your foot to keep in time How is a new guy going to interpret these post. I think he’ll be so concerned with keeping that hand going that it would become detrimental to his playing. I don’t ever remember thinking about hand movement to keep time, in fact the right hand just seemed to do what was necessary to pick the note the left hand was noting. Don’t remember any real difficulty with tremolo. I think the reason I had no problem is I didn’t freak out worrying about it. Yes you have to develope good timing but playing with a metronome or a guitar player with good timing will force you to do that without even thinking about it. Only possible exception is learning to cross pick a roll.

  36. The following members say thank you to Mandoplumb for this post:


  37. #24
    The Amateur Mandolinist Mark Gunter's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Location
    South of Cleburne, North of Hillsboro, Texas
    Posts
    5,091

    Default Re: pick direction practice advice

    I've seen your comments over the short time, couple years I've been here, on threads that discuss pick direction. I think I do understand basically where you're coming from. "I wasn't taught like that." "Nobody had to tell me when to pick, I learned it on my own." etc. Well, I came in on the same kind of boat. I learned rhythm playing guitar at 12 years old, just 50 years ago, and nobody told me the kind of stuff that I and others wrote earlier in this thread. I played with records, I played with family and I played with friends, and I can remember what musician I was listening to when I figured it out.

    Should I just tell a musical newbie who struggles with this stuff, "Don't worry about it, you'll figure it out"? You probably already know how many people start and just give up after awhile. Why not try to find a way to explain to folk how to find a groove?

    Well, anyway, I could show you dozens of good players and teachers who can tell you how a DUDU picking pattern is supposed to work with your hand keeping time. I can show you dozens of videos of good players where you can watch for yourself how their hands keep time while they pick or strum. I'd even bet a silver dollar that if I watched you playing, I'd find you flapping your right hand to the beat or at least jiggling it to the beat while you're picking. If you're good, then you can't help it.

    If a newb is struggling with it, it's because they haven't caught on yet. 50 years ago you weren't worth a dime at it either until you'd got out and learned it! If that's not so, then you must be the only one who didn't have to figure it out.

    That's why I'm puzzled when you rant in these threads about it. Watch Bill when he chops. See that little jerk on beat 1 followed by the big stroke on 2? Another little jerk on 3 followed by the big stroke on 4? He's flapping his hand to the beat, might as well be tapping his foot. And watch him picking to a 4/4 or 2/4 fiddle tune. You'll see his hand bouncing up and down with the beat, picking out notes on the way up and/or down according to the melody, occasionally he might pause his hand movement for a l-o-o-o-n-g note, or when he's singing and not playing, but he never loses the beat - and he starts flapping that hand like tapping a foot again, with the same up and down as before, as soon as he starts back playing without skipping a beat.

    So it might be that you were having trouble understanding the point I was trying to get across about DUDU in the hand, what I was trying to say is "play like Bill Monroe does" or "play like Sam Bush does" or "play like Tim O'Brien does." I just never thought it would take this much explanation to get that point across.
    Last edited by Mark Gunter; Oct-29-2017 at 1:27am.
    WWW.THEAMATEURMANDOLINIST.COM
    ----------------------------------
    "Life is short. Play hard." - AlanN

    ----------------------------------
    HEY! The Cafe has Social Groups, check 'em out. I'm in these groups:
    Newbies Social Group | The Song-A-Week Social
    The Woodshed Study Group | Blues Mando
    - Advice For Mandolin Beginners
    - YouTube Stuff

  38. #25
    Registered User Sherry Cadenhead's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2017
    Location
    Irving, TX
    Posts
    925

    Default Re: pick direction practice advice

    "Like Bill says, you can play it any way you want to, and the DUDU stuff taught in Scott's lesson (see link in OP) and in the workshop shared by wildpikr (see links in message 13)"

    Mark, what is OP? Mike, do you know if there are PDFs available for the exercises John Moore demonstrates?

    I appreciate the input here, but I must admit it is information overload for my pea brain! I decided to look back at Brad Laird's beginning mandolin course. There it was: DD for quarter notes, DUDU for eighth notes.

Bookmarks

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •