scale length - what's up?

[mandolin breeze]

I'm confused about different scale lengths. Say for a "standard" F5, I might see a scale length noted as 14", or 13 7/8, or 13 5/8, or some other tiny variation. Why is this? Seems logical that a F5 would have a "standard" scale length, but apparently not. What's the length of the gold standard, a Lloyd Loar? Why do they vary? Does it affect intonation or pitch as you move up and down the fretboard? For instance, would there be a pitch difference between two mandos with different scale lengths, say fretted at the 10th fret? Thanks.

[Willie Poole]

I have always heard that a standard scale is 13-7/8ths inches...Should be the same for an A and an F model but I suppose some do vary a bit, All of mine are 13-7/8th`s, and I would also suppose the intonation would be different but some builders will chime in an let you know for sure...

Willie

[mandolin breeze]

If you scroll through the first couple pages of the classifieds, you'll come across a few posts that mention the scale length. Most say 14", and I think one said 13 7/8. I wonder if it is actually 13 7/8, but folks are just "rounding up". Hopefully, as you say, a couple builders can explain . . . it's got me curious.

[pops1]

It is no different from guitars. Scale length 24", 24.5", 24.75", 24.9". 25.5". Well you get the idea. A slight difference in scale length is a little more or less tension for the same note, a little more or less wobble in the string. Most likely won't notice this in mandolins with short scale. Differences in scale can make for differences in sound, and they are not rounding up from 13 7/8" to 14". A Martin mandolin is a 13" scale.

[Bill Snyder]

Weber uses 14" .

[Mandoplumb]

This has always confused me too. I know in theory the scale could be any length but the fret spacing would be different. Are builders laying out their own fretboard or is a pre cut board considered close enough for bluegrass or in this case close enough for mandolin?

[JEStanek]

Within that range of mandolin scale length (13 7/8th and 14) the boards would be slightly different or the intonation would be off. The Lyon and Heally mandolins even had violin scale of 13" on some models. I think the difference in scale between 13 7/8 and 14 may be real hard for most people to feel but, the boards would have slightly different spacing for proper intonation. 13 7/8th seems to be standard at least in templates and tools I see available online.

Jamie

[David L]

This has always confused me too. I know in theory the scale could be any length but the fret spacing would be different. Are builders laying out their own fretboard or is a pre cut board considered close enough for bluegrass or in this case close enough for mandolin?

If you have the frets already cut, then that determines the scale length. The scale length is exactly twice the distance from the nut to the 12th fret. Builders lay out their own fretboards.

[mandroid]

it's related to a 4/4 violin scale + the combined width of all the frets.

[sblock]

it's related to a 4/4 violin scale + the combined width of all the frets.

Huh? I don't think so. Where did you get idea that from? For one, the width of the frets does not "add" to the scale length of a fretted instrument. The frets are superposed against the scale, not appended to it.

The violin scale is approximately 13" for a full-sized violin. The mandolin scale length is typically about the same on a bowlback (Neopolitan style) mandolin. But it's longer on Gibson A- and F-models, about 13-7/8", and mandolins derived from these (some, like Weber, are fully 14", which is very hard to tell apart by "feel", but whose measurements are nonetheless different). But the preferred scale length on a mandolin has nothing to do with the fret widths.

[CES]

I'd consider 13 7/8 to be standard, but then again I've only played a bunch, never built one. My Martin style A has a 13 inch scale, and it's noticeably different than my "standard" ones.

Some love the shorter length, and tension does seem less (though it has much lighter strings than my arch tops), but I've yet to bond with it...

[mandolin breeze]

I think it's fair to say that the Lloyd Loar F5 is the "standard" for the F5. If not, what else would possibly be? In doing some research, I found a wonderful in-depth article on Mr. Loar. Very much worth the read. In it, I found my answer . . . his mandolins had a 13" 15/16 scale length. Isn't that something . . . exactly between the common 13 7/8 and the 14" lengths - fascinating. Really makes you wonder why or how he came to that particular length. So, until a "higher authority" than Mr. Loar comes along, 13 15/16 is indeed the "standard" F5 scale length.



http://siminoff.net/loars-contributions/

[Graham McDonald]

All mandolins used to have a 13" scale, more or less the same as a violin. Orville Gibson increased the scale length of his mandolins in the 1890s by about one fret which brings it up to close to 13 7/8". When the Gibson Mandolin Guitar Manufacturing company was formed in 1902, I suspect the 13 7/8" scale was used as fretboards of that scale could be cut on the same gang saw as Gibson's guitar scale. It wasn't until the mid 19-teens that other manufacturers started to use longer scales with their new lines of flat mandolins, while the bowl-back instruments stayed at 13". The carved Lyon & Healy mandolins carved which came out in 1917 had 13 3/4" scale for the first few years, then reverted back to 13", supposedly as that was preferred by the players. Loar didn't change anything about Gibson scale lengths, though there are some inconsistencies on the fret positions of quite a few 1920s Gibsons which some have suggested was because the spacers on the gang saw were replaced incorrectly after servicing was done on the saw.

The scale length is twice the distance between the front of the nut and the middle of the 12th fret, which on a Gibson scale 13 7/8" mandolin should be 6.94" or 176mm. The distance from the 12th fret to the contact point on the saddle for the high e string will usually be a little longer than that to compensate for the sharpening of notes as the string is pushed to the fret. This means that the distance from the nut to the saddle will be closer to 14" than 13 7/8", so it is more accurate to measure the nut to 12th fret distance and double it to get the scale length (as long as the nut is in the right place, but that is a whole other discussion)

cheers

[Paul Merlo]

Sure, there ya have it. 13 15/16" scale length for LLoyd. I'll give it to him because that length gave his mandolins the exact tone he (and many people since then) was looking for - along with body dimensions, string gauge, and a number of other slight specifications.

I suppose a reason for varying scales these days is because modern builders geeked out on the science of it, and found slight tweaks (of a 1/16" or so) can alter a mandolin's sound. You want a tubbier, fat tone? Build one with a thicker body and heavier strings. How about a bright, tight, ring? multiply your dimensions by .976 and see what happens. Obviously, you'd have to alter the fret spacing a tiny bit - but to me, that's fantastic anybody can get a mandolin that sounds just like they want it to.

But was Lloyd measuring to the near or far part of the compensated bridge?

Here's an interesting story about exact scale length: One time a friend was getting a guitar set up, and the luthier asked him how hard he plays, like was he a lead / solo kind guy that wailed, or did he just strum along? Evidently that affected how to adjust the intonation because the frets were extra large, and you get a different pitch depending how hard you fret the strings. This particular guitar was an Ibanez model made for metal. It had a big wide neck that was especially flat with extra large frets. I was like "no ####?" and he was all "plug it in and see". So we plugged it in and ran it through this giant tuner powered by a flux capacitor and I'll be damned if that guitar didn't bend its notes a little the harder you pressed. You could hear it. My mind was blown.

[CarlM]

But was Lloyd measuring to the near or far part of the compensated bridge?

To the smallest strings. The compensation is to allow for string diameter. The closer you are to zero diameter the closer you are to an ideal, theoretical string.

I'll be damned if that guitar didn't bend its notes a little the harder you pressed

Which is one of several reasons for pressing as lightly as you can and still get the note to sound without a rattle. Harder pressure does several things all of them bad. That pressing too hard bends strings out of tune is no secret. Try playing banjo with its light strings. You can hear the difference clearly if you press even a little.

[Mark Gunter]

Read Graham McDonald's post above, it says a lot in just a few words. Lloyd Loar (and any good luthier or engineer) would measure from the leading edge of the nut to the crown of the twelfth fret, and double that number to get the scale length. In practice, the saddle may be adjusted to make actual string length vary a bit for setting intonation - and the saddle can be compensated to allow for different string diameters, and different properties for wound vs. naked strings, but scale length is expressed as "distance from nut to twelfth fret x 2"