does it matter that much?

[A#Bb]

I'm a newbie but i finally got up enough courage to lead a few songs at our local jam session. i led some really basic songs but still being new to the mandolin, i did them using two finger chords mainly G, C and D. as i was doing the songs, most everyone in the jam group was getting into the song(s) singing out loud with me, tapping in time with the songs and basically having a great time. even the patrons inside the cafe was singing along. so, as you can imagine, i was ecstatic and couldn't wait to come back the next time maybe even with a new song or two.
however, there was a "seasoned" mandolin player there who pulled me aside after we were finished and told me i really need to learn my songs using three finger chords and that the way i was doing it wasn't actually correct because i was turning the mandolin into a strumming instrument like a guitar instead of using it for the chop and percussion sound it was meant to be used for. as you can imagine, all the excitement that i had went from 10 to 0 in a hurry. no way will this person ever keep me from the jamming that i enjoy so much, but now i'm going to be wondering every time that this person is there am i going to get some more "constructive criticism" after we are done. i'm always working on three finger chords and chopping chords and will get there someday where i will be comfortable in doing songs this way. to me, two finger chords sometimes makes a much better sound than three finger chords. i understand that there is a time for more than two finger chords but is it that important to have to play every song using three finger chords? any advice would be appreciated!

[jshane]

My two cents-

Are you having fun? Sounds like the answer is yes.

Are you moving forward? Sounds like you want to, and are doing so.

Don't let others dictate your enjoyment of music. Go, participate, and enjoy. The mandolin can be whatever you want it to be. It was "meant" to make music. Limiting it like that other player wants you to do is very foolish and short-sighted.

[George R. Lane]

That person is a jerk. Keep doing what you feel comfortable with. When you feel you can do three finger chords easily, then you can play them in the jam.

[Ken]

Sounds like your "seasoned" player has a pretty narrow view of madolins and music. Do it your way. You'll grow in whatever style(s) that interest you. One of the best local players I know sometimes uses two finger chords, including as chop chords.

[Mike Stewart]

As they say, "well, he's not wrong". (Yes, I'm quite confident that it's a "he".) Some folks just don't do constructive criticism well. What the person should have said was, "hey, great song(s) you called out tonight. 'Wagon Wheel' is always a fun one. Say, here's something you might want to work on if you're not already doing so...<yada, yada>...I know one of the things I struggled with starting out is treating the mandolin like a little guitar, but here's some strumming patterns that I've found work well."

Unfortunately it too often comes out, "you're doing it wrong." They either aren't great with words and mean no harm, or they're a butthole who boost their own ego by pointing out the flaws of others. So, for the former you can take it in the spirit intended. For the latter, smile politely, "thanks for the tip", ignore them. On the flipside, no matter how it's worded, don't get defensive and honestly assess if it's something you should spend more time on in practice.

Now as to how important it is or what kind of difference it makes, meh, depends on the song. If I off-beat chopped every single song I'd go nuts from boredom. Hard-driving, hard-core bluegrass song (whatever that means)? Yeah, probably a lot of hard chopping with a little embellishment here and there. "Kentucky Waltz"? Umm, no, we won't be chopping that one. So your critic is not wrong, but not completely right, either. But I will say that three and four finger chords are something you should be working on because it not only allows you to get to that off-beat chop rhythm playing, it will also allow you to do i-IV-V "triangles" of chords that IMO are easier to use, remember, and transpose than two finger chords.

Above all, don't let it make you self-concious. Put in honest work during the week in practice, do what you can at the jam, it will all come with time.

[Pittsburgh Bill]

however, there was a "seasoned" mandolin player there who pulled me aside after we were finished and told me i really need to learn my songs using three finger chords and that the way i was doing it wasn't actually correct because i was turning the mandolin into a strumming instrument like a guitar instead of using it for the chop and percussion sound it was meant to be used for. as you can imagine, all the excitement that i had went from 10 to 0 in a hurry. no way will this person ever keep me from the jamming that i enjoy so much, but now i'm going to be wondering every time that this person is there am i going to get some more "constructive criticism" after we are done. i'm always working on three finger chords and chopping chords and will get there someday where i will be comfortable in doing songs this way. to me, two finger chords sometimes makes a much better sound than three finger chords. i understand that there is a time for more than two finger chords but is it that important to have to play every song using three finger chords? any advice would be appreciated!

I agree with George, that person is someone to be ignored (maybe not a jerk, but definitely ignored). There are different styles for everyone's ears. I, personally, do not appreciate hearing a mandolin player chopping chords and becoming a snare drum. But that is just me, not right or wrong, just my preference. My preference is hearing a mandolin picking out a melody with enhancements including, but not limited to tremolo, double stops, and a spattering of chords that I can actually with my limited ear know what chord is being played rather than a chop. And if the chord, when used works, I don't care if it is a two or three finger chord, or a bar chord.
Ignore that persons comments and continue having fun in your way. You will eventually expand upon your chords as made necessary by your more challenging mandolin endeavors.

[JeffD]

Well having goals and long term aspirations, and actively working on them, is of course important. But enjoying what you can do right now is just as, if not more important.

Just because you have a way of enjoying it now doesn't mean you are stuck there, or that you have no intention of getting anywhere.

If someone's complaint is that you are not yet all you could be, keep in mind that that complaint can accurately be leveled at every mandolin player on this forum. We are all somewhere on that continuum.

Another moral booster for you, there is a video of Steve Earle playing Galway Girl. He doesn't to much more than you were doing, if any. And he is up there on the world's stage while your seasoned mandolinner is sitting next to you in a jam.

[Bertram Henze]

I avoid teaching, also because I make a lousy teacher, but mainly because example is stronger than talking. What did that mandolin player do to contribute to the music? Was it impressive? Did it make you want to be able to do the same? If not, he's just a talker, and talkers make me thirsty (that was a GoT quote, but you get what I am saying).

[Beanzy]

Well if you're working on 3&4 finger chords they're only telling you what you already were working on anyway, so no major insight from them so far. As to when you actually take the new chords out of the woodshed, totally up to your judgment. You wouldn't want to take the new hot-rod out of the garage just to have it break-down out side the gate. But equally you'll be busting to take it for a spin once you're confident.

As to their motivation I'd assume they saw the energy and how well you led the song & got people engaged, so they probably thought imagine how good you could be if you had the chops in there too (done well, they really can drive things up a gear or two). But then again I always like to assume people have good intentions but just come across wrong.

If you can lead a song so people pile in and take off, then you probably don't need to worry too much about what's happening with the mandolin while you do, after all there's already a player who can cover the chops to make you sound good. When it's someone else's turn to lead you can try to do the chops for them & make them sound good. After all that's our role in a jam to make the song and singer sound good & keep the waggon clattering along.

[Denny Gies]

Two sides to this stick of dynamite. One, if you're having fun that's all that counts. Two, if you want to improve your playing and knowledge of the fingerboard you might want to learn the three and four finger chords. Learn to use your pinky and you will be surprised at the progress you'll make. Bottom line, it's your decision...don't listen to the jerks who think they know it all. Find your own way and just have fun.

[William Smith]

For sure keep going, don't get discouraged, and take criticism as fuel for learning. Believe me I went through it learning from players and family. I've heard "thats not the way Bill Monroe played that" Well I'm not the Big Mon I said! I'll play it my way! Heck you can learn a lot by watching more experienced players and by pickin with em.. It can be easy to get bummed out but keep on a truckin!

[Drew Egerton]

It really depends on what you're after. If all you want to play is old time or pop kind of stuff, you can get pretty far strumming along with open chords.
If you want to play bluegrass and jazz, you'll want to start exploring other shapes. I start beginners off with open chords for sure in any style so that they can easily play some things and not get discouraged by harder shapes.
Good luck!

[Tobin]

What kind of jam was this? If this group plays pretty traditional bluegrass style, where each instrument is expected to stay within its role, then the other mandolinist may have a valid point. It's not that you're doing it "wrong", but it could have been his attempt at helpful advice for you to fit in better with the group's expectations.

Of course, if it's a general jam that includes all styles, then that's different.

There's a woman who comes to our local jam sometimes with her mandolin, and she only plays two-finger chords, strumming it like a little guitar or ukulele. She doesn't do any melody/lead breaks, and just uses her mandolin to accompany her singing. It works fine for her, and I could imagine how difficult it would be to lead the chord progression on a mandolin with only chop chords. If this is what works for you, then do it. But once the rest of the group can follow the chords without you leading them, you can really get a LOT more out of your mandolin by switching over to different chord shapes and a different style of playing. Once you move on to these other techniques, it's hard to go back to simple two-finger chords and strumming.

Don't let his advice get you down. But don't fight the advice either. Use it as motivation to experiment and learn new things that will enhance your jamming experience.

[Mark Wilson]

Learn and enjoy both. It's only wrong if it sounds wrong to you - so make sure you are listening while you're having fun playing. Seasoned mandolin players with rules are like opinions... wait how does that go?

[Marc Katz]

i remember being kind of pissed when I rec'd some similar advice about not playing on the 1&3. It took me a while not to be pissed, but it was fundamentally good intentioned advice. But advice that isn't asked for is often unappreciated.

If you can't do it yet, it's fine to do what you can. And since you're leading the song, it's alright IMO to use the mandolin like a guitar - whatever it takes to get everyone going and keep it going. But someday, you'll be able to chop on the 2&4. And you'll be able to decide what you think is best.

In the meantime, it's kind of a moot point whether 3 or 4 finger chords are better, if you can't pull them off yet. So do what you can do now and keep on picking!!

[Bill McCall]

Time will confirm if he's a jerk, or just socially inept. He did take his time to provide some insight into your playing, some of which matches your private efforts. I would withhold judgment and remember your success.

When I began, I went to a jam and was told (by a woman) "you need to take lessons from x and go to this workshop". That was a little over 4 years ago and I have been very grateful to her for that, although at the time my first response was a little "wtf". But now I jam with her whenever I can because I realized she saw I was serious and she was trying to help me improve.

Patience is important in this journey and the ability to tolerate unfortunate circumstances is part of that.

[Ivan Kelsall]

There's a big difference between telling somebody something that makes them feel inadequate or 'wrong',& 'advising' somebody in a constructive manner. The OP's a beginer,but he obviously knows that he's only on the first rung with his 2 finger chords. He's well aware that the more advanced chord shapes are waiting for him to arrive at that point. No way should anybody have told him that he was 'incorrect'. I play a simplified 'G' chord shape because i prefer the sound of it over the standard shape - that's not 'wrong',it's what 'I' do & it works fine. I'm pretty sure that there's some pretty unorthodox methodology going on with a lot of us - & if it works,so be it !!,
Ivan

[mrmando]

MEANT to be used for chop and percussion?

Um. no. Everyone knows mandolins were MEANT to be played by Italian guys in clown suits!



The fact is, the mandolin is a versatile instrument that can be used in several different ways, of which chop/percussion is only one. I agree that every mandolinist should learn the closed chord forms, but that doesn't mean open, 2-finger forms are useless, or that the mandolin was "meant" for one type of chord or the other.

I've met people in the mandolin orchestra scene who have been playing for 50 years and never learned a single chord. On one hand, if they're happy with what they're doing, that's what matters ultimately; on the other hand, they're limiting themselves by acting as though the mandolin was "meant" only to play single-line parts in large ensembles.

So while the advice to expand your chord repertoire is good advice, it wasn't given tactfully. What you're doing now isn't "wrong," just different.

[Dagger Gordon]

I often use 2 finger chords. I'm not playing bluegrass and I don't see anything wrong with it.

[nickster60]

I think it is more important to learn the songs and the melodies. I got the same advice when I first started to play mandolin. It was more tactful than your advice. Go and enjoy yourself and play the mandolin. Anybody can beat on their mandolin like a drum.

[UsuallyPickin]

Hmmmmm .... If you murdered the songs it would be wrong .... If people enjoyed your effort and songs then it was right. Two fingered chords are the beginning of a long journey with many paths to choose from. Bluegrass style rhythm uses three and four tone chords and popping them on the off beats for their playing. This is just one of many styles. The thing about two finger chords is they ring on the open strings. This is sometimes wanted but not always by the player. Learning to control more of your mandolins tone / sound is part of learning how to play. Whatever you decide your music is to become. Enjoy the journey... R

[Pittsburgh Bill]

I think it is more important to learn the songs and the melodies. I got the same advice when I first started to play mandolin. It was more tactful than your advice. Go and enjoy yourself and play the mandolin. Anybody can beat on their mandolin like a drum.

Not true. Anyone can not beat on their mandolin like a drum (and make it work with-in the realm of music being played). I can't. Personally, I don't even like listening to a mandolin player chopping away. But I would like to someday develop that skill. I have yet to try. Perhaps if I ever get around to practicing that style of playing, I may develop an appreciation for it.
Again not wrong or right, just a different style and it does work in Bluegrass.

[Bertram Henze]

Anybody can beat on their mandolin like a drum.

Alternative wording: Anybody who claims the mandolin was meant for chopping deserves to get beaten with his mandolin like a drum.

[sblock]

There are two separate issues at play (pun intended) here, IMO.

The first is that some self-appointed critic was very much less than tactful in providing you with unsolicited advice on how one "must" play your mandolin in a jam setting. (Either that, or you heard him wrong -- but I tend to doubt it.) One should always be careful when offering advice, and this was clearly not the right way to do it, because it seemed to lack any supportive component. And it left you feeling badly.

The second issue has to do with the nature of the advice itself, and not with the way it was delivered. As you get better on your instrument, you will probably want to move away from two-finger chords and guitar-style strumming, because advanced mandolin players don't generally play that way. That's a fact. Particularly in a bluegrass setting, the mandolin traditionally tends to play backup more percussively, on the off-beats. That's a "chop," and that's a fact. And these players tend to play backup using 3- and 4-finger chords, like the infamous 4-fingered G with that D note on the bottom. That's a fact, too. Yes, strumming on the downbeats using 2-finger chords does have a place somewhere in mandolin music, but perhaps not so much in bluegrass backup, I'd say. As your playing improves, I have no doubt that you will move away from this, and towards other approaches.

Hang in there. Keep playing and improving. Go to jams. Listen carefully to the better players, pick up on what they're doing, and emulate them as best you can. The rest will take care of itself. Someday, you will look back on your two-fingered strumming and smile. You might even approach a newbie after a jam, and offer some supportive, tactful advice on how they can advance their mandolin playing! And I'm quite sure you will do it better.

[CarlM]

Are you playing in time and rhythm?

I am going to be a little of a devil's advocate here and relate an experience I have had with a player joining jams. A banjo player (naturally) who would come in strumming the five string banjo since he did not know how to pick it very well and could not pinch backup to save his life. He jumps in and out inconsistently and wildly off time and rhythm anywhere from a couple beats ahead to 3 and 2/3 beats behind. It has even been captured on youtube unfortunately which I will mercifully not share with anyone. I tried nicely to work with him and politely told him something like what you were told, to learn to pick and pinch instead of strumming because he was so off rhythm and loud the leads and vocalist could not be heard. The last time he jumped in as I was practicing to go on stage with a singer, he played in the wrong key for a whole verse and chorus as well as completely out of rhythm till I said something. He argued. Then I was not so polite.

I had a teacher who said No one has the right to kick you out of a jam but you do not have the right to wreck the jam either. Some people are control freaks but other times that kind of advice comes for a good reason. Keep playing and have fun but make sure you are not wrecking things for everyone else.