I've asked before, but asking again: how to play louder

[Bertram Henze]

We're doing it the same way, then. It is the way I got volume, after struggling for volume with other ways.
Language may be fuzzy, but volume is definitive.

[jaycat]

Well you all make me embarrassed to have ever picked up a mandolin at all.

Oh, come on. It's not a banjo....

[hank]

"Well, there's thirteen hundred and fifty two
Guitar pickers in Nashville
And they can pick more notes than the number of ants
On a Tennessee ant hill
Yeah, there's thirteen hundred and fifty two
Guitar cases in Nashville
And any one that unpacks 'is guitar could play
Twice as better than I will"

[sbhikes]

I'm sitting in front of a guy playing octave mandolin and you know what? Even miked, even twice the size, mandolins just are not loud.

[JeffD]

Mine is. Two of mine are. And the one with the tone gard is even louder.

[Bertram Henze]

This OM player has been admonished often for playing too loud in sessions with guitars, fiddles, boxes, flutes, even pipes.

Now I come to think of it, that has started about the time when I started playing doublestops most of the time.

[Mandobart]

I'm sitting in front of a guy playing octave mandolin and you know what? Even miked, even twice the size, mandolins just are not loud.

That's a little dismissive. The particular OM you heard played by that particular player didn't sound loud to you. There are so many variables at work. We've covered a lot of the technique variables in this thread. We've touched on some of the construction variables as well. I have a 21" custom built F4 OM with X-bracing that is pretty loud by my own (and playing partners') estimation. In general, the higher frequencies cut through better so my F5 mandolin by the same builder seems louder. I have tone-gards on both and that helps as well. IMHO you asked for some advice, got some helpful tips (and some not) and maybe you've decided its not you or your particular instrument, its the nature of the instrument. I can assure you a good many mando pickers on a good many mandos get plenty of volume unassisted by sound reinforcement.

[sblock]

I'm sitting in front of a guy playing octave mandolin and you know what? Even miked, even twice the size, mandolins just are not loud.

Well, considerations about loudness for an OM are not the same as consideration the loudness for a regular-sized mandolin. That's an apples-and-oranges comparison. No, mandolins are not the loudest instruments -- they're not banjos or bagpipes (thank God)! -- but they can certainly be heard in most jams, with the right technique.

Folks in this thread have offered a lot of helpful advice about why your mandolin sounds so weak. There could be many reasons (competition from louder instruments, choices of picks or strings, mandolin characteristics, ToneGard, setup, playing timing, and so on) -- but a good deal of the advice here centers around the fact that you seem to be playing very softly. Don't. More than anything else, you need to work on your right hand technique, because you can definitely sound louder if you learn how to play that way, and properly! This is not meant to be a negative criticism; it is constructive advice. As the saying goes, first look to the player, not to the instrument.

[sbhikes]

Sure, yes, I have things to work on, but I do feel that some of the comments were harsh and inaccurate.

[Bertram Henze]

As the saying goes, first look to the player, not to the instrument.

...also because a change made on the player's side tend to be the most affordable. Everybody can do it.

Sure, yes, I have things to work on, but I do feel that some of the comments were harsh and inaccurate.

Comments are often inaccurate due to the nature of remote diagnosis - they are jigsaw pieces you have to put together to get a picture. I have read none that were downright harsh in this thread, though; all meant to come across with a helpful meaning, albeit with the occasional ruggedness you can reliably expect from folk musicians.

[PhilGox]

Hello Sbhikes,

For mandolin specific technique, I'm not good enough to advice. I would just suggest you to listen to the advices above, because the subject interests me too.

But I have lot of music experience that might help you, I explain:

I have played the trumpet a lot in horns section (trumpet, sax, trombone).
So I have the harmonisation culture:
In a horn section we never play the same note at the same time.
We always harmonise it. (=playing the same melody but a 3th, 5th or 6th below or above)
The result is that you hear one " big horn instrument" but with three distinct voices.

Well what do I hear in your video if I close my eyes?
ONE fiddle a little detuned and no mandolin at all.
So I ask to myself:
What is the use of having three instrument playing the same melody at the same time?
Is it the genre of music that requires this?
(It's a real question, no ironic or perjorative will I'm just not familiar to this style of music.)
Imagine a sound ingeneer mixing your three separate tracks, it would be a mess for him.
And pushing volume would not make your instrument more dinstinct anyway. It's a matter of frequencies as said above by someone.

When playing strings, I had the same problem than you with my guitarist and I solved it like this when playing louder had no effect:
-When he plays low chords I play high notes
-When he plays high notes for solo I go to the low range of my instrument.
-When we both play melodies we harmonise it an octave, 3th or 5th below.
To resume I always try to not walk on his feets.

So this is what I would advice:

1- Give a try to all technical advices mentioned in this topic: Your technique and volume will surely improve with time. It can't hurt.
2- Get a punk attitude on stage and don't be afraid to brutalize your instrument: You WILL play louder. (I exagerate the image, you don't need a pink iroquois hair )
3- Try not to play the same thing than the fiddles. Learn harmonisations or change octave or rythm: You will hear yourself and be heard. And you will have the satisfaction to add your touch to the music and make it richer

Good luck

[DougC]

I think you need lessons. It seems as though you have read a ton of suggestions and you 'have asked before...". Still no improvement. A teacher can decide, (not you) and actually work with you until you do what he/she says is better.

[hank]

Sbhikes I enjoyed your video performance, and could tell you are a seasoned player. Personal criticism usually generates defensive responses with me too. I think your courageous putting yourself under the Forum magnifying glass to find a way to break your present volume barrier. Do you think your defensive energy from our critique of your technique might help you now? Use this fire to push and pull those strings with a new firmness raising your mandolins voice just as you do with your voice when speaking in a defensive way.
Your funny descriptions of the other louder instruments you perform with made me laugh but also revealed your ability to assert yourself. Just keep in mind that you probably can play twice as better than I can just maybe not as loud. You got the hard part, now dig in and straighten us Na-Sayers out.

[Bertram Henze]

2- Get a punk attitude on stage and don't be afraid to brutalize your instrument: You WILL play louder. (I exagerate the image, you don't need a pink iroquois hair )
3- Try not to play the same thing than the fiddles. Learn harmonisations or change octave or rythm: You will hear yourself and be heard. And you will have the satisfaction to add your touch to the music and make it richer

These two have helped me progress a good deal in the past. I can recommend that.

[pops1]

If you look at my hand while playing it would not look like I am hitting the strings hard, but I can be heard with 5 fiddles and a banjo and a guitar or two. I don't think you have to wail on the pick to be loud, but there is a technique involved, and a push, even tho it won't look much different. Using a little more force may get you where you want to go. Also when playing the tune you were playing I would tremolo some of the sustaining notes. I can hear you, but only slightly, you are playing the same notes as the fiddles and it makes it harder to distinguish between the two. Try recording again and drop out in the middle and see if you hear a difference in the recording. I think you will notice when you drop out. And I always practice the way I will perform. If you practice quiet it will feel odd and throw you off to try and play hard, practice hard if you need to play hard so you are consistent. Above all have fun.

[A 4]

I have two suggestions, one easy and one hard. The easy one: based on the video, it looks like you are squeezing the back of the mandolin against your body. While sitting down, try angling the headstock away from you, so that the back is free, the mandolin is resting on your lap only on the side, and maybe you are touching it with your right forearm, but again near the edges, not the back. I think this is what toneguards do, and I know it makes a difference to me, and others can hear it.

However, that does not address the fundamental issue, which is that you are playing softly. Here I have another suggestion, which worked for me: play chords and rhythm. That gets you used to playing with joy and some oomph, which will transfer over to your melody playing. It is also tons of fun.

I'll start with the backstory: For the first seven years or so of playing mandolin, I was living in a place with neighbors on the side or up above me, and family who went to sleep early, so I played quiet all the time, which meant I was a quiet player. Never really practiced chord playing, because that is sort of boring by yourself. Eventually I started playing (oldtime) with other people, and I was too quiet. Over time, though I got louder, possibly too loud sometimes now. Playing chords means you have to use at least your wrist, if not whole forearm, which will break you of the habit of only playing with fingers. And you learn to give your wrist a flick (shake it like a polaroid picture on the down stroke) for more oomph, and you get away from delicate finger movements that you have now. When your friends start getting that pulse really clicking, maybe you will let yourself play with more abandon. Sometimes, when they start playing faster than you think you can play, you'll keep up but you won't have time to play quiet.

The guitar player can give you the foundation to work with, and after a while, they may want to start walking all over the fretboard, and then you need to be the foundation, so you do it. You can't do that quietly, so you play more loudly than you are comfortable, and then it gets comfortable. And you realize people want you to play loudly (two fiddles!). Sometimes the timing starts breaking down, so you have to whomp really hard to get everyone back on track. The nice thing about playing oldtime is you get plenty of time to practice on a given tune.

I realize that these are not a recipe; there is no "do this and you will be louder." It is a way to get out of your head and into the music.

[Pepe]

Hi sbhikes,
Not sure I can add much here, but with flatpicking tunes on mando and guitar, I know the challenge of 'cutting through' in a loud group setting. I also have a female mando-playing friend who is very quiet when she plays (and a couple who aren't!)
In terms of motivation/inspiration for improving your volume and tone, let me pass on the general acoustic instrument philosophy Bryan Sutton espoused (to every student) when I was enrolled in his Artistworks course: everything you bring to the table, instrument, pick, how you hold them, how you pick, how you fret etc., should be working toward producing the best tone possible. Although this seems basic, many folks never focus on it and if this area needs work, that's where Bryan starts regardless of how advanced the student is. One of the reasons good players sound good is they know how to get the best sound out of their instrument.
The other point I'd like to comment on is pick choice. Most experienced flatpickers these days have spent lots of time (months . . . years) trying out all kinds of picks (you can search countless threads here). Also most advanced pickers choose heavier/thicker flatpicks for good reasons (tone, volume, dynamic control). I know you've tried a few thicknesses and find a medium-ish pick loudest. What I don't think has been made clear it that thinner picks are definitely much easier to master than thicker picks, which it why lots of folks, particularly less experienced pickers gravitate toward and have better results w/them. Thicker picks require a much more dynamic and educated grip to be able to use to full advantage. I'd recommend using whatever pick is working best for you at a given time, but also have faith that a huge number of the best pickers favor thicker (1.4+) picks and keep working w/them. Your technique will improve.

[Jess L.]

... everything you bring to the table, instrument, pick, how you hold them, how you pick, how you fret etc., should be working toward producing the best tone possible. ... One of the reasons good players sound good is they know how to get the best sound out of their instrument. ...

I agree completely, but "best tone" and "loudest" don't necessarily coincide.

Although, generally speaking, in a group setting with a bunch of other instruments, with no mics or any amplification of any kind, chances are no one will notice if the tone isn't quite as nice because of having to play stronger to get more volume. Also depends on the instrument itself as to whether or not it responds well to heavy playing - when I used to have high-end acoustic instruments, with most (not all) of them I could play as heavily as necessary to be heard, without much detriment to the tone; however since then I've resorted to super-cheap instruments which don't respond well at all to any attempt to play louder, just makes them sound harsh. So I don't think one can necessarily always have both high volume *and* sweet tone in a purely acoustic instrument with no mic or other amplification.

[sblock]

Sure, yes, I have things to work on, but I do feel that some of the comments were harsh and inaccurate.

We (well, most of us, anyway) are sorry if you interpreted these comments -- especially the ones that suggested that you work on your right-hand technique -- as being harsh and inacurate. They were not intended to put you down, but to lift you up. Your mandolin cannot be heard in the video for several reasons, but chief among them is that you do not seem to be playing very loudly. I get the impression that you were hoping for a "quick fix" solution: something about the pick, or the strings, or the setup, or the instrument. Or maybe even something about the music or quieting the other players. And some of that might still be part of the solution. But the main problem, in the opinion of many of us, is your playing. You do not play loudly. But you could learn to play louder. Suggesting that the problem might be with your playing is not meant to be harsh. It is a constructive criticism. It may not be what you wanted to hear (sorry!), but if you take it to heart and practice a better technique, you might find that your playing improves by leaps and bounds. I suppose this is tough love. But please rest assured, it is love! You can play louder by learning how to play louder. That sounds easy, I suppose, but it isn't. But you can do it.

[Paul Kotapish]

Whoa boy, now we're venturing into the semantics of language...."What the meaning of 'is' is..."

Dangerous territory, indeed. I used to do forensic graphics and multimedia work for civil litigation attorneys, and one evening when we were working on a thorny case I was called into a meeting where five partners were sitting around trying to do just what Alan mentioned: define what the meaning of "is" was in a particular document. Somehow I managed to put together a visual narrative through a series of documents from the case that convinced the bench judge that our meaning of "is" was better than the opposing counsel's meaning of the word "is."

I no longer do that.

As for picks, I don't think a thicker pick naturally equates with louder volume. At a certain point, I think it becomes counterproductive, in fact. Anything between a .73 and 1.2 or so should do the trick.

More to the point, so to speak, is the shape of the pick. It's easier to get warm, mellow sound with a rounded or even round shape, but for volume and projection, the pointy end is your better friend.

In addition to all the fine tips above, try a variety of picks in different shapes and practice finding the sweet spot between the bridge and the end of the fingerboard. Do it with a sympathetic listener who can tell you when you seem to be hitting your stride in terms of volume.

[Pepe]

...So I don't think one can necessarily always have both high volume *and* sweet tone in a purely acoustic instrument with no mic or other amplification.

I think your point is certainly valid and it definitely can be instrument-dependent. I agree w/Bryan though that tone quality is the real holy grail, and that once someone has undertaken the (considerable) task to produce good acoustic tone on their instrument, they will have developed the chops to produce respectable volume as well.
Regarding tone quality, 'sweet' is a term I would associate with warmer, rounder, picked further from the bridge tone, as contrasted with bright or strident (picked closer to the bridge) tone, which might be my choice when trying to cut through, depending on the instrumental mix at the time.
Having had a recent electric-mid-life-crisis in a band of guys half my age, I can attest that amplification doesn't necessarily solve volume wars!

[sbhikes]

I intend to talk to a friend who plays bluegrass mandolin and see if he can help me. If I try to play louder I don't have very good control and the pick gets all tangled up and I can't do much of anything, so my hope of posting here was that there would be some help for me that isn't just "play harder" because that isn't working. Maybe my friend can watch me and tell me what to do.

I play old-time music and the tradition is to play the melody in unison. Our guitar player isn't really that knowledgeable of old-time guitar methods, but he is enthusiastic.

Here's an audio where you can actually hear me a little better. I'm playing with the same other people in my back yard. I can't say I'm brilliant, but at least you can hear it some. People I play with seem happy to see me so I can't be too horrible. http://glendessaryjam.com/sites/oldt...in_hunting.mp3

[B381]

In her defense, that guitar player is banging away on those strings, no fluid motion, stiff like a robot. Come to the front, the back is for the bass....lol

[Tom Haywood]

One bit of advice that I don't recall seeing here that you may get from a bluegrasser is that you might need to raise the action. If your action is low, playing it harder might just create more of a mess than volume. Higher action generally gives more volume, sometimes better clarity, and allows you to get your pick down into it better. You may or may not like the feel with it higher.

[Bertram Henze]

I intend to talk to a friend who plays bluegrass mandolin and see if he can help me.

Good idea. Interactive is always better and faster than remote.

If I try to play louder ... the pick gets all tangled up...

Exactly what is to be expected from plucking. Plucking means stretching the string and then releasing it. Archers, harp players and fingerstyle gutarists do that, but mandolinists don't. We don't pluck, we strike. That means the pick moves fast and delivers a glancing blow at the string. There is no need to "dig in" and get tangled up, in fact it is a lighter and much more relaxed move.

BUT - changing picking habits is like a large truck stuck in a cul-de-sac: you have to back out, slowly, cautiously ("beep beep ..."). Concentrating on different picking means attracting attention away from the melody, and your playing is hampered until the new technique comes naturally and you can turn attention to the melody again. That is normal, and that is why many players are anxious to get into the best habit from the start.