Any fiddle players?

[Verne Andru]

I know this is the Mandolin cafe, but as a picker I'm finding myself becoming piqued by the violin. AFAIK they are tuned the same, and I've seen reference to people playing both so...

There are quite a few violins of all shapes and descriptions on my local CL but, like all things, it's best to know what to look for, and avoid, when purchasing, so if there are any fiddlers out there your words of wisdom are most welcome.

[Tobin]

Yes, there are lots of fiddle players here. Some were fiddlers first before taking up the mandolin, and some (like me) were drawn to the fiddle after playing the mandolin for a while.

It's not something you will want to explore casually. By that, I mean the fiddle is a jealous mistress and demands full attention, as well as years of study to get sounding decent. It's addictive too, once you get past the point of sounding like you're torturing a cat. There is SO much to learn, and so much to work on. One can spend a lifetime perfecting one's bowing.

Definitely avoid cheap fiddles and cheap bows. You'll want to do your research and get some help from someone who knows their stuff before spending money on a starter fiddle.

[Dave Sheets]

Started fiddle a couple of years ago (after guitar, bass and mandolin). I didn't take lessons, just did it, and have just gotten to be able to play fiddle tunes close to speed. Not really ready for public consumption. But working on fiddle really improved my guitar playing in particular. No idea why really, but it did.

It's been blast learning, it's a neat instrument. I started on cheap fiddles, but a decent one is way better, with more resonance in the instrument, it's way easier to tell when you are in tune, which was a big issue for me. A decent fiddle and set-up makes life way easier.

Check out http://www.fiddlehangout.com, not as active as Mandolin Cafe, but it's got some decent info.

If you have to economize, get a good bow and a cheap fiddle, you get more improvement for your money in having a good bow.

There are a lot of inexpensive german trade violins around, made between 1880 and 1930 or so. They are relative cheap, and the decent ones are solidly built. Some luthiers regraduate the tops, and turn them into pretty decent instruments, if it's done right.

Talk to the fiddlers in your area, lots of folks upgrade instruments and may have their own starter instrument to sell.

Have fun, it's initially really slow and frustrating, but the learning curve (for me at least) suddenly flattens out and you start being able to play, and with the bow, it's a really nimble instrument.

[liamcpurcell]

Fiddler right here! As both fiddle player and mandolin player I will say once you know one, it will be easier to get the other. The drastically different thing is the right hand, it will probably be pretty frustrating to slow down and clean up the bow arm cause your left hand will be telling you to play cool fast tunes!

As far as fiddles go, go for something handmade OR factory made around or before the 50's... Bob Koguts (NC) fiddles are incredible, avoid Palitino, none of their fiddles are up to scratch even if they are branded as such. If you find a decent fiddle at the pawn or sold as is, take it to a luthier, almost any fiddle will sound good when set up!

also, Strings!!! Coated classical strings tend to take LOTS of practice to sound clean on, if you want something loud and toneful, try Prims, they are steel and non-coated and cheap as fiddle strings go!

Good Luck!

[Jstring]

If you want to get a fantastic fiddle for an affordable price, you can't beat Royce Burt in Florida. I have 3 of his fiddles (FAS! Lol...)
and they are all great.

He has a website, but it's best to go to his YouTube channel and listen to what he has for sale. He has lots of new, old, and restored fiddles.

You won't be disappointed.... and if you are, you can return the fiddle and he'll send you different ones until you are happy.

https://m.youtube.com/user/burtvillefarms

[Dave Reiner]

I'm a fiddle player - it's a really fun instrument, though tricky at times. Consider finding a teacher first, who can help you rent or buy an instrument. Try instruments in person if possible (could be on approval). A decent bow is really important - think about spending about a third of the cost of the fiddle on a good bow.

Good luck!
Dave

[Mandobar]

Spend money on a good bow! While the fiddle itself is important, if you are uncomfortable with the bow, you are going to struggle to get good tone, and the fiddle will find its way to the back of one of your closets.

I feel very fortunate as we have a local shop, close by in NH run by a fiddle maker (who used to teach at the UNH fiddle making program). I've learned a lot from him, and he's a great player too!

[Pete Martin]

Get help from a goodteacher and practice a LOT!

[JeffD]

I find the fiddle to be very difficult. I had the prejudice that I had a leg up knowing the fretboard, but wow, that was the least of my troubles.

The real issue for me is that the violin does nothing for me, I have to do it all. Every note - you have to start it crisply, control the volume and pitch and tone through out its duration, and end it crisply. The mandolin, if you pluck it soft or loud, your responsibility for the note is done. Mandolin is more like bowling - once you let go of the ball what happens happens. Violin is more like riding a bicycle, you are responsible for starting, for the speed and direction of moving, and for stopping, of every single darn note.

Because of this I felt like I was fighting the fiddle at ever step. It was me against the fiddle. We never bonded, never became comrades in music.

One other thing. I should have started the violin first, a long time ago. Over my long time playing with others I have a very good idea what a violin should sound like. And I know I am not doing that. It takes a long time to get to sound acceptable on the darn thing, and if I started earlier I would have had more patience with myself because of my relative inexperience in listening to good fiddlers.

[Tobin]

Spend money on a good bow! While the fiddle itself is important, if you are uncomfortable with the bow, you are going to struggle to get good tone, and the fiddle will find its way to the back of one of your closets.

Agreed. However, there's a caveat. A new player won't know what a good bow should feel like. When I was just a few months in, I went to a local violin shop and tried out a bunch of bows, ranging from $200 all the way up to $1500. I really couldn't tell the difference in how they felt, because my bowing arm wasn't experienced enough or "dialed in" enough to know what I wanted. So buying a really expensive bow sounds like a good idea, but it could still not be the right bow for you, and you won't know until much later.

I think bows have to be approached sort of like mandolin picks. You just have to start off with one that others say is decent, and get used to it long enough to develop your basic bowing skills. And then experiment with more. It's a heck of a lot more expensive than buying picks (even those Blue Chip picks!), but it's going to take going through a lot of bows and spending time with them to figure out which one suits your playing style. I'm only 2 years into playing the fiddle, and I have 4 bows, but I am still not sure what's "right" for me. I make do with my two favorites. Each has a different feel and different sound. I figure I'll just have to buy more bows over time as I continue to improve, until I find the one that I just don't want to put down.

And on top of that, even a great bow can be awful if you're using rosin that's not suited to your style or your environment. So experimenting with different rosin cakes is important too. Most are junk. I bit the bullet and got on the list for Baker's Rosin, and I've been happy with it.

[Mandobar]

A good bow is not necessarily an expensive bow. it takes a while to learn what works for you and some people like a heavier bow, some like a lighter one. Some players prefer more weight in the tip, some less, etc.

There's also a lot of choices in the carbon fiber and fiberglass arenas. Personally, I wish I'd bought a carbon fiber bow to start with. Glasser makes a great bow, which is inexpensive, and you don't have to worry about it warping or humidity. They are about half the price of an entry level Coda Bow.

[Verne Andru]

Boy, now you've got me thinking of all those (probably expensive) violin bows we destroyed back in the '70's imitating Jimmy Page.

I'm assuming these new chinese electrics are pretty much junk?

[Jstring]

Fiddlerman also makes a nice carbon bow, available on Amazon:
https://www.amazon.com/Fiddlerman-Ca.../dp/B00K0NZQHY

Not quite as agile as my expensive Codabow, but it's totally adequate and a great value at $67....it's the bow I travel with, camp with, etc...no worries at that price.

[Verne Andru]

There are approximately 127 violins on my local CL - anybody see anything worth recommending:

https://vancouver.craigslist.ca/search/msg?query=violin

[Mandobar]

People will tell you, unless you really know a lot about fiddles try and buy from either a local shop where you can get a lot of guidance, or purchase from a reputable on-line dealer, specifically one that is known for their customer service and knowledge of fiddles.

If you are in Vancouver there are quite a few violin shops in that area. You might want to visit a few and see what they have available. Fiddleheads.ca was in Vancouver, but it looks like they have moved.

[Louise NM]

Congratulations: a whole new world!

If you have played mandolin for awhile, you have a head start on looking at instruments. You know how to tell if a neck is straight, if general fit and finish look decently done, if the body is cracked. You also know that $150 instruments are usually a waste of money!

I would suggest staying away from Ebay, Amazon, etc. There are some truly dire violins out there. If you end up with something with a poorly cut bridge, a badly fitted soundpost, pegs that won't stay put (no, violinists have not yet discovered tuning machines), a fingerboard of of soft wood dyed to resemble ebony, you will spend several hundred dollars trying to put it right and still have a crummy instrument.

If there are local violins shops, make the rounds. If you can take a friend with you who plays, all the better. Don't bother with a place that snobs you if you're not a big-bucks pro, and don't bother with the guitar shop that has two violins in stock. Find someone who actually seems interested in helping you get what you need. If that's impossible locally, Shar (Michigan), Johnson Strings (Massachusetts), and Southwest Strings (Tucson) are all reliable mail-order shops, and all do business across the country, both rentals and sales. Renting for a few months might be a good plan, especially from a shop that will apply rental charges to a purchase.

Eastman makes good reliable instruments—yep, same Eastman—as do Snow, Scott Cao, and some other Chinese companies. There are some excellent instruments coming out of China, and some gawd-awful ones, too.

As others have said, plan on spending some money on a decent bow. Carbon fiber might be a good place to start. You tend to get better quality for your money in lower-end bows with CF. Coda makes great CF bows at several different price points. If you are gong for wood, you will want pernambuco, and not brazilwood. Again with bows, having someone with you who plays can be helpful. You want to make sure the bow is straight, that it is well-balanced, and that it won't cause you problems.

If you can buy in person, you can get some help finding a good chin rest and shoulder rest. If you are young, flexible, average size and shape, this isn't a biggie, but if you are thin, built like a barrel, built like a giraffe, have an arthritic neck and a bum shoulder, and are 6' 8", a little help might be a beautiful thing. An instrument will come with what should be a serviceable chin rest. Fora shoulder rest, look for one that is highly adjustable.

Strings. You can spend a lifetime trying out different strings. A decent entry-level violins will come with reasonable strings. Dominants are kind of the classic, middle-of-the-road string, and a good place to start. They are not cheap (I still can't get over a set of mandolin strings being under 10 bucks) but they last well. Synthetic-core are much easier to tune, and stay in tune longer, than steel. While you may eventually prefer the more cutting sound of steel strings for fiddling, I wouldn't start with them, even though they are cheaper.

Decent instruments do show up on Craigslist. People lose interest, the kid needs a step-up, all that. Here's where a buddy can help. If you go it alone, some of my earlier comments will give you an idea of what to look at. Watch out for heavy varnish. If the thing looks like it was dipped into a vat of polyurethane, that's not a good sign. Check bulletin boards at the local university, too. A music major may be selling the old instrument to help finance the next one.

Another suggestion: hire a teacher, as you will want a few lessons to at least get you out of the gate. If you start with good habits, you won't have to break bad ones later!

[Seter]

One thing I've been pondering about violins, is there such a thing as an oval hole violin (or I suppose any other variant besides the standard F hole)?

[Louise NM]

There are approximately 127 violins on my local CL - anybody see anything worth recommending:

https://vancouver.craigslist.ca/search/msg?query=violin

The Eastman 315 (May 16) would be well worth looking at. The June 6 Heinrich Gill looks well cared for, don't know if that's more $$ than you want to sink in it. I see a few Gligas. i think they are Eastern European, and they have their fans. I have never played one. The June 11 in Maple Ridge looks clean and well cared for.

You want 4/4, I assume—a full-size instrument—unless you are a tiny person. Most of these are fractional. The new ones for $60 are probably trouble. There is a purple one . . . And a banjo!

[Louise NM]

One thing I've been pondering about violins, is there such a thing as an oval hole violin (or I suppose any other variant besides the standard F hole)?

Nope, no oval holes, no A-style or F-style, no sunburst finishes, no exotic woods. The differences between a Guarneri or Strad pattern are subtle.

[Mandobart]

Seriously Verne? I could've swore you've commented on at least one of these threads:

Mandolin/fiddle players
Did you start playing fiddle or guitar and then start mandolin?
Mandolin to Violin - Help
Mandolin/Fiddle Crossover
From Mando to fiddle
Mando to fiddle
Mandolin players who took up the fiddle - talk to me!
Learning to Play the Fiddle....at this age????
Does violin playing enchance mandolin playing?
Mandolin leads to fiddle playing?
Making the jump from bluegrass mandolin to bluegrass fiddle
starting fiddle
Fiddle players and mandolin

Its a start. Or you could go straight to our Fiddle Players social group.

One cool thing about orchestral strings - you can rent them to try them out first. Head to your closest music store and rent one for a few months first. There are probably 10 times more violins available anywhere than mandolins.

[MontanaMatt]

I found the mandolin after 16 years of intense classical violin training. The mando came easily after I learned to grasp the pick and pluck, yet advanced mando technique is equally elusive and complex as complex fiddle work. Besides the bowing, the main difference is you can't play a narp or flatural on a mando (natural-sharp, or flat natural)[finger placement is super precise on fiddle].
The recommendation of finding a teacher is spot on, in fact, plan on finding and using several teachers, as each has their own style and limitations. Do not self teach the fiddle, you will fail. There is too much no-intuitive physical posture and movement to the proper technique. When you have a skilled teacher, you are reaching back into history to all of their teachers teachers, etc.
Buy the best fiddle you can afford, start learning and saving for you next great one. Like mandolins, you get what you pay for usually, and great wood makes for fun playing.
Plan to practice an inordinate amount of time to refine your muscle memory.
As for your question of finding a good fiddle, since there have been so many fiddles made, there are lots of bummers out there, find someone with skills and knowledge and ask them for help. A beginner on a dud sounds like a beginner on a gem.
Happy picking and bowing, it's the best!

[Beanzy]

I'm loving my foray into fiddling over the past 3 years. I have been a cellist since '92 so wasn't intimidated by the bowing aspect as the mindset is already there from that. My real issue is probably that viola would be a better physical fit for my fingers, but I wanted to be able to just swap between mandolin and fiddle as needed while working up the same tunes, so the viola will have to wait.

I bought an old fiddle found in the top drawer of a dresser by a house clearance/ antiques guy.
It cost £20 as neither of us knew what it might be worth. I took it to a very good luthier and spent £130 on a proper setup, another £150 on bridge, tail piece shoulder and chinrest (which was one of about a dozen she tried to suit my particular quirks) then £90 on a very useful carbon fibre bow. The fiddle is one of those Mecklenberg strad pattern ones which were turned out in great numbers in the late 1800s, the woods used were good swiss pine for the top and nicely figured maple. My son has a Wolff Bros. violin from 1888 (£2.2k) which it can compare with in tone while bowed but not resonance and complexity of the overtones, so pretty good for fiddling, but not so much for classical. It's probably worth about £300, but has far more value than that for me in terms of fit and utility for my fiddle playing.

In terms of practicing I would say spend a lot of time each practice just settling yourself in to the instrument before you begin trying to practice the tunes or exercises for that day. Get a wee routine of fettling everything just right before you start. Do a few good stretches and reaches to loosen yourself up.
Set the bow on the strings and spend a while just bowing the open strings in turn over and back, getting the arm used to the angles an lines you need to bow cleanly without catching other strings. Practice swapping strings cleanly so you remind yourself where the bow needs to be as it travels between one string and the next. Bow pairs of strings so they are evenly balanced then favour one then the other, thos will help with when you want to double-stop or add drones.
Spend time enjoying the resonance and physical satisfaction from making the instrument come alive.
Remember that lovely sound as you bow actual tunes and try to keep it as you play even faster and work on actual tunes.
With the fiddle there is a real reward from spending time settling yourself into the instrument and not just rushing in to play the tunes straight off, so don't rush in, ease yourself into your practices. Come to the tunes already making a good sound and warmed up.

[Mandobart]

I'm loving my foray into fiddling over the past 3 years. I have been a cellist since '92 so wasn't intimidated by the bowing aspect as the mindset is already there from that. My real issue is probably that viola would be a better physical fit for my fingers, but I wanted to be able to just swap between mandolin and fiddle as needed while working up the same tunes, so the viola will have to wait.

I play viola now vs violin, the 16.5" size fits me better. I modified my viola to a 5 string so it has the full range of violin and viola. D'addario makes a long scale viola E that works nicely. You can restring a viola as a violin to have an instrument tuned like a mando that better fits your hand size. Sure it'll never fly in an orchestra but it works great.

[Mandobart]

Nope, no oval holes, no A-style or F-style, no sunburst finishes, no exotic woods. The differences between a Guarneri or Strad pattern are subtle.

Well not exactly true - Sonny Morris built a pretty cool sunburst fiddle for a player in our old time fiddlers club. I'm having a western red cedar 10 string Hardanger built now (by my friend Tom TJ Jessen) more in the older viola d'amore style. Definitely not strad looking.

[UsuallyPickin]

Yep ... lots of fiddlers here.... Bottom line .. a well setup well made instrument and bow will assist you in learning to play a fiddle. A poorly made one, referred to here as a VSO or FSO , violin or fiddle shaped object will only stand in your way. As stated above she is a jealous mistress. If you don't spend time with her she will not become your lady. Lessons at the start pay off in that it will help not to start out with bad technique. Habits both good and bad are hard to break. My recommendation is to buy the best instrument and bow you can afford. Usually a student grade instrument, bow, case tuner and rosin can be had for around 750.00$ new give or take. There are reputable foreign companies that sell a good beginner instrument for slightly less. Older German made instruments can be purchased for less but often require work to make them playable and that can make them expensive quickly. Also, purchase a mute to use ..your family and pets will thank you ..... the first few months are more noise than music.... R/