Asking about oval hole

[Safou]

Hello , I'm still new and I'm interested in learning the mandolin. I'm looking for an affordable easy to pick up oval hole mandolin.
And another question , in oval holes what is the difference between the normal one and the F style one ?

[Mike Arakelian]

Hello Safu and welcome to the Cafe'. When you say "reasonable", what is your price range? It's highly preferable to get a mandolin made of solid woods rather than plywood. Critically important is that the mandolin is set up properly in order to sound good and play comfortably. Be aware that not everyone that sells mandolins sets them up, and if you purchase one of these you will have to find someone to do the set up for you...expect this to run any where from $50 to as much as $100 depending on the work needed.

When you say "normal one", I assume you mean an A-style mandolin. Essentially the only difference is the look. The F-style is more expensive due to the more elaborate cutting and carving for the scroll, but they will, or at least should, sound the same. Note that both A style and F style mandolins can have either oval holes of F holes. Most people here at the Cafe' will advise you to start with an A model as you will get more bang for your buck. Two good choices are the entry level Kentucky and Eastman mandolins. I would recommend looking at one of the Cafe' sponsors such as Elderly, The Mandolin Store, Folk Musician, etc. to see what they offer. All will provide a mandolin that is well set up and ready for you to play. Good luck and enjoy your mandolin journey.

[pheffernan]

I'm looking for an affordable easy to pick up oval hole mandolin. And another question , in oval holes what is the difference between the normal one and the F style one ?

The F-style oval is different in aesthetics, not quality, so if affordability is a priority, then focus on the "normal" A-style. In fact, though you don't say where you're located, my advice would be to consider a flattop mandolin. They're less time intensive and therefore less expensive to produce, with the savings passed along to the consumer. Some brands to consider include Mid-Missouri / Big Muddy, Flatiron, and Redline.

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[MikeZito]

If you just want to get your feet wet with a 'beginners' instrument, just to get started - I have no problem in recommending a Washburn M1SDL . . . if you want to jump in a little deeper to get started, then the above recommendations are a good choice.

[Safou]

. In fact, though you don't say where you're located, my advice would be to consider a flattop mandolin. They're less time intensive and therefore less expensive to produce, with the savings passed along to the consumer. Some brands to consider include Mid-Missouri / Big Muddy, Flatiron, and Redline.

I live in north africa and I assume it's an uncommun instrument around here. Thanks for the advice ( all of you guys ) I'll do some infield research or I'll have it shipped from europe since it's cheaper.

[Verne Andru]

If you just want to get your feet wet with a 'beginners' instrument, just to get started - I have no problem in recommending a Washburn M1SDL

+1

And once you move up to a better mandolin, you can use the Washburn for your knock-about.

[Explorer]

In oval holes what is the difference between the normal one and the F style one ?

Instruments with f-holes typically have much less sustain and lowered high frequency response compared to oval hole instruments. You can hear the difference when surveying demonstration videos, both between mandolins and on related instruments like octave mandolins.

I recommend listening to those demo videos to get a good idea, now that the difference has been pointed to to you.

Whatever you choose, good luck!

[Eric C.]

Instruments with f-holes typically have much less sustain and lowered high frequency response compared to oval hole instruments. You can hear the difference when surveying demonstration videos, both between mandolins and on related instruments like octave mandolins.

I recommend listening to those demo videos to get a good idea, now that the difference has been pointed to to you.

Whatever you choose, good luck!

He's wanting advice on the difference between F style and A style. Bringing up ff holes may only lead to confusion..

[GeoMandoAlex]

Safou, there really is not a difference in sound between a normal (A style) and F style mandolin. The big difference is the price between the two styles since the F style has more carving (time to carve the scroll, etc.) than is is to carve an A style.

[fatt-dad]

To be clear there are f-style mandolins and there are a-style mandolins. Either can be bought with sound holes shaped like an, "f" or an, "oval."

To me, the a-model, f-hole mandolin is the most versatile. I used to own a Kentucky KM-250 and I liked that. I used to own a KM-180s and I liked that too. Lots of folks recommend the Kentucky KM-150 for starting out - never played one.

Have fun!

f-d

[Teak]

I have two A style mandolins. One has ff holes and is long scale, meaning it is joined to the body at fret 15. The other is an oval hole that is joined at fret 12.

I am still trying to get used to the sound of the oval hole. It sounds higher pitched to me because of the shorter scale and the chords are not as mellow as the ff hole/long scale. Of course there are other differences that make for the contrast also. The ff hole/long scale was made in 1979 and is probably Sitka spruce topped versus the oval hole/short scale which was made in 2015 and topped with Englemann spruce.

[yankees1]

Just start out with an Old Wave and you won't have to upgrade later !

[Bill Cameron]

The F-style oval-holes trace back to the Gibson F-4, one of the most aesthetically beautiful string instruments ever made. As everyone says, there is no practical acoustic reason to prefer an f-shaped body over an a-shape, but if you find one that appeals, there's no reason not to prefer it, either. They are a minority taste and you pay a premium for that reason.

By-the-by, if you are limiting your search to oval-holes because of the style of music you play--it is oft repeated that they are better for Celtic, old-time, classical or jazz--dont believe everything you hear. I am one of many Celtic-style players who like an instrument with f-holes.

[Verne Andru]

As everyone says, there is no practical acoustic reason to prefer an f-shaped body over an a-shape...

I realize this is the common understanding, and don't wish to single you out, but there is a functional difference between an F and an A. The pointy-bits on the bottom (treble side) are designed to let the player hold the instrument between their knees without it slipping around, like an A does, while playing.

In this day of musicians standing (musicians in mandolin orchestras of the day the F5 was designed were usually sitting) a strap solves the bouncing-mando problem well and renders the bits Loar added a curiosity, but I still find they come in handy from time to time.

[Randi Gormley]

Curious. Were the points deliberately designed to hold the instrument in place or was that just how people used them after the design was created because it was part of the curlicue-deco look? Or is that a chicken-and-egg kind of thing? I mean, for me it's a moot point since none of my instruments are fs and I play sitting down without a strap, even with my bowlback, and usually don't have my instrument move around when i play. But now you have me wondering if function determined form or if people just used what they had and then backfilled the reasoning!

[Verne Andru]

Good questions to put to Lloyd, but he's left the building. As I understand it, and I claim no authority whatsoever, Loar was looking to reinvent the mandolin and may have designed around some (perceived/real) complaints. Or not. Without a strap I find myself orienting to the twirly-bits for function, so they do serve a purpose for me.

[David L]

Good questions to put to Lloyd, but he's left the building. As I understand it, and I claim no authority whatsoever, Loar was looking to reinvent the mandolin and may have designed around some (perceived/real) complaints. Or not. Without a strap I find myself orienting to the twirly-bits for function, so they do serve a purpose for me.

Lloyd Loar had nothing to do with the points. The F (for Florentine) style had been around for a long time before Loar hit the scene. They had oval holes, but the points were there in the early 1900s. My 1906 has THREE points. The third point (by the scroll) is not there to help hold it up!

[Verne Andru]

The F (for Florentine) style had been around for a long time before Loar hit the scene. They had oval holes, but the points were there in the early 1900s. My 1906 has THREE points. The third point (by the scroll) is not there to help hold it up!

Got a pic? All I get on Florentine are things like this 2-pointer:

[Bill Cameron]

I realize this is the common understanding, and don't wish to single you out, but there is a functional difference between an F and an A. The pointy-bits on the bottom (treble side) are designed to let the player hold the instrument between their knees without it slipping around, like an A does, while playing.

In this day of musicians standing (musicians in mandolin orchestras of the day the F5 was designed were usually sitting) a strap solves the bouncing-mando problem well and renders the bits Loar added a curiosity, but I still find they come in handy from time to time.

Fair enough points, Verne, but they dont address my qualifiers "practical" and "acoustic", which I didnt put in for window dressing. Not arguing, just clarifying. Sure there are practical reasons for the f-shape body, but they are not acoustic-related. That is _not_ to say that there is zero difference in sound between an f-style and a-style, I understand that the f-style has an air chamber about 10% larger, which may lead to slightly higher volume in otherwise-identical instruments. But we have broadly acknowledged that this difference is not enough to be significant.
That scroll is purty, and handy to hang a strap on. Much purtier than the strap button I installed on the neck-heel of my A. I could be tempted to own an F-4 myself. I just cant make a real practical argument for it, which is the beauty of the whole thing.

[Verne Andru]

It would be interesting to read ad copy from the day when the F was first released. Gibson (in particular) would have hyped any new features and benefits so if there was a known function to the form it should be talked about in the ad copy.

Anybody have any ads they can post?

But this is getting pretty far OT...

[Bill Cameron]

It would be interesting to read ad copy from the day when the F was first released. Gibson (in particular) would have hyped any new features and benefits so if there was a known function to the form it should be talked about in the ad copy.

Anybody have any ads they can post?

But this is getting pretty far OT...

Maybe OT but I think we thoroughly bored the OP a good three weeks ago.

I believe the introduction and refinement of the scroll had everything to do with the aesthetic sensibilities of Orville Gibson, who was an artistic woodcarver working in the medium of stringed instruments. Wouldnt we love to have been a fly on the wall in his workshop in the 1890's! Lets face it, they look classy, they feel right, the look _is_ the selling point. Imagine what a revelation it must have been for a longtime player of bowlback mandolin the first time they sat down with a carved Gibson.

[pops1]

I wonder if a mandolin scroll was a way to incorporate the scroll like a violin, but different than the headstock. The Vega uses a scroll in the headstock, was Orville trying to have the beauty of a scroll, but be different?

[allenhopkins]

Got a pic? All I get on Florentine are things like this 2-pointer

"F" ≠ "Florentine," a point that's been flogged to death on the Cafe. Gibson assigned letter prefixes to its different mandolin models in arbitrary fashion: "H" for mandolas, "K" for mandocellos, "J" for mando-basses, e.g. The only mandolin Gibson ever explicitly called "Florentine" was the EM-200 solid-body electric which I believe they made in the '50's and '60's. It had two points (per your catalog pic), not the scroll and points of the F-model mandolin.

Gibson also made some 1920's tenor banjos called "Florentine," which had pearloid fingerboards decorated with painted Venetian -- not Florentine -- scenes. Wonder who thought that up...?

Orville Gibson came up with the F-model mandolin just before he left the Gibson Mandolin & Guitar Co., leaving his name behind, and his basic concept of a carved-top-and-back "violin-esque" instrument -- but not much else. Here's an interesting Gruhn article on "Orville Gibson's Last Mandolin."

[Verne Andru]

Any idea what Gruhn means when he says "The tone might best be described as semi-classical." in that article?

[allenhopkins]

Any idea what Gruhn means when he says "The tone might best be described as semi-classical." in that article?

While I can't hear through George Gruhn's ears, the "classical" sound in mandolins might be less percussive, sweeter, with more "ring" and sustain -- perhaps a "thinner" sound such as bowl-backs often produce: clear highs, strong mid-range, no "woof" in the bass.

Not a bluegrass voice, may be what G's trying to say, but I'd attribute a similar sound to many Gibson oval-holes, though they may have a more bassy emphasis -- what is often called "tubby" when describing Gibson A-model, oval-hole instruments of the 'teens and twenties. A more "classical" sound would have a clearer treble.

Sound's pretty subjective; ears differ. Helps to use generally accepted adjectives: treble, bass, attack, sustain. "Semi-classical" may be crystal clear to the author, somewhat obscure to us.