Flaked top of 1917 Gibson A

[Urthona]

My 1917 A model sounds good but the brown top has lost roughly 70% of its finish and what remains is flaking off, probably the consequence of toasting in an attic for a century. The sides, back and neck are mint. I know that the general rule is not to refinish, but this instrument is pretty close to being unfinished now. What would be the most historically and musically sound approach to refinishing the top?

I am planning to have this done by a pro who specializes in the chosen technique, so I am not interested in do-it-yourself shortcuts.

On another note, I am thinking of having an old-style adjustable bridge fitted to replace the original one-piece bridge, which is probably a little higher than optimal. I don't want to cut down the original. Any recommendations on a particular replica bridge? Or would it be better to buy another one-piece bridge and experiment with that?

[Frank Ford]

I know that the general rule is not to refinish. . . . I don't want to cut down the original.

Time to get it in the hands of a competent French polisher who can do a nice job on the top. All this discussion about maintaining originality gets a bit tedious, particularly when you have a situation like this one.

Same with bridge. Cut it to fit - it's just a bridge - it can always be replaced, replicated, or whatever, if needed.

[MikeEdgerton]

Time to get it in the hands of a competent French polisher who can do a nice job on the top. All this discussion about maintaining originality gets a bit tedious, particularly when you have a situation like this one.

Same with bridge. Cut it to fit - it's just a bridge - it can always be replaced, replicated, or whatever, if needed.

Amen.

[Spruce]

I love the flakey finish...
YMMV...

[Vernon Hughes]

I have a '22 sheraton brown truss rodded A-2 with LOTS of flakey wear on the top, more so than yours..love it. Installed a cumberland acoustic bridge on it some years ago and it's a cannon.I wouldn't take a gold plated goose for it.

[dschonbrun]

Looks like the instrument has suffered some rapid changes in temp or humidity. It's not unusual in a 100 year old.

Barring all other things, keeping an instrument in a playable state will maintain or improve it's value. At this point, the instrument needs quite a bit of TLC. Beyond Frank's suggestions (which are spot on) I'm guessing there is work needed inside, possible separation of kerfing from soundboard ... from the look of the binding seams. Bring it to a first rate luthier who specializes in instruments of age and have them do a once over inside and out to determine how much work it will require to stabilize it and make it playable for another 100 years.

Best of luck,
David

[Urthona]

Looks like the instrument has suffered some rapid changes in temp or humidity. It's not unusual in a 100 year old.

Barring all other things, keeping an instrument in a playable state will maintain or improve it's value. At this point, the instrument needs quite a bit of TLC. Beyond Frank's suggestions (which are spot on) I'm guessing there is work needed inside, possible separation of kerfing from soundboard ... from the look of the binding seams...

Thanks. It really looks dire, doesn't it? I was prepared to find all sorts of problems when I bought a little endoscopic camera for use with my phone, but despite the horror show on top the camera revealed that all is peaceful below - the kerfing is all in place (the apparent gap is an illusion generated by the raking light), and the top is well supported by sound solidly glued braces. The finish on all surfaces other than the top is nearly perfect, and most important, it sounds very good, though I am hoping a nice finish will improve it. But I will definitely ask the luthier to give it a thorough inspection.

[BradKlein]

This is a 'feature' of some, but not all the Sheraton brown mandolins of this era. I've always assumed that there was an unforeseen reaction between that particular stain and the finish. And that it does not necessarily mean the instrument was exposed to severe conditions.

Also, you mention 'braces' in the post above. There's just the one top brace usually, just south of the sound hole.

Having said that, I'm not against Frank Ford's advice on french polishing to preserve and consolidate what's there. I suppose it's gone out of fashion a bit in both the mandolin and violin worlds. And I agree that it's no sin to refit an original one piece bridge.

[William Smith]

Also, you mention 'braces' in the post above. There's just the one top brace usually, just south of the sound hole.

Having said that, I'm not against Frank Ford's advice on french polishing to preserve and consolidate what's there. I suppose it's gone out of fashion a bit in both the mandolin and violin worlds. And I agree that it's no sin to refit an original one piece bridge.[/QUOTE]

Please don't refinish

[BradKlein]

Please don't refinish

I don't think Frank Ford, (or probably anyone else) is suggesting 'refinishing' the instrument.

I think it was more common in years past to french polish a thin layer of shellac based finish over an existing finish. Sometimes just to clean and 'shine up' older instruments. Sometimes to consolidate a deteriorating finish. Sometimes to protect bare wood or delicate finish that is in danger of being worn through.

Are there more experienced vintage repair folks who know the history with mandolins and violins and how attitudes have changed over time in regard to french polish over existing varnish and nitro finishes?

[Urthona]

Doh!

I was misremembering the inside of this mandolin when I referred to braces -- I haven't peeked inside it since I determined that all seemed to be shipshape. I was hoping that there is a reliable technique for dissolving the remaining finish and redistributing it, then perhaps adding a new more thin layers. But if this (sp?) brown stain is the culprit, or if the consensus here is that even a minimal intervention by an expert French polisher would adversely affect the sound, I may just leave it as it is.

[billhay4]

I don't think FP would affect the sound at all.
Bill

[Br1ck]

I've seen an old Martin or three that Frank Ford has French polished. Seals the bare wood and locks in what finish remains. It is a very pleasing conservation of the look of an old instrument.

[Ginridge]

I rebuilt this Gibson A which was in terrible condition when I got it. Repairs entailed splinting multiple sections of wood and sanding done sections of the already trashed finish to blend in the splints.



As Frank suggested, I used French Polish for the finish. I did a wipe down with alcohol to "re-glue" loose chips. Then I gave it a light wet sanding to remove some overspray. Once it was prepped, I french polished it by hand with garnet shellac and a bit of tobacco stain from stu mac. Time consuming and meticulus work, but not hard once you get the hang. It turned out beautifully and looks period appropriate.

[Ivan Kelsall]

Most competent luthiers realise the importance of removing only what needs to be removed ie.the 'flaky finish'. Any sanding to remove it would go no deeper than that. Afterwards,as Frank Ford suggests, & as Ginridge beautifully demonstrates above,the top can be sealed with a thin coat of French polish. The new finish would simply replace what was there originally (re.the thickness) & IMO,the instrument 'should' sound exactly the same as it does now,look better & maybe last a whole lot longer,
Ivan

[Timbofood]

Remember, there is a difference between finish restoration and refinishing, as Mr. Ford says. Getting the instrument into the hands of an experienced finish professional to get it shipshape is the best idea.

[William Smith]

Yes for sure you can get it french polished I'm just the type that is obsessed with keeping the finish original on these things no matter how flaky or flawed it is! When I have say a F-7 regraduated I get it done from the inside cause I wouldn't want the original finish re-done, Thats what I've seen on youtube of the Gibson's that John Mclanahan has redone-he removes original finish because he says to get the best results on those old F-12's etc. You have to do it like "his way" from the outside, I actually can't believe he redid a newer Gibson Master Model that way-I seen the video. Just seems krazy to me?I'm not throwing off on his work because he makes some really fine mandolins, I just don't agree with the refinish of the old instruments.

[Ivan Kelsall]

From bluegrasser78 - "I just don't agree with the refinish of the old instruments.". I understand your point fully,but for me 'it depends' on what needs to be done & why !.

Leave the OP's mandolin alone & eventually the rest of the finish will flake off = a bare wood, 'unprotected' top. IMHO,that's not good. It leaves the wood open to the absorbtion of moisture,staining & abrasion. 'For me' - it's far better to preserve the mandolin,than it is to preserve a bad looking flaky finish ,which will eventually become non-existent.

I was watching a TV prog. a few weeks back - the US Pebble Beach car show. Now there's a direct opposition of thought regarding old,classic mega-buck cars. One guy had bought a rare British Aston Martin for $13 million US. Did he leave it ''as it was'' - no way !. He spent a further small fortune ( maybe a 'big' fortune for us), in having it 'restored to it's original condition'. The final outcome was simply awesome !!. However - the finishing etc. was ''replacement'' NOT original. He didn't win the competition either.

You can not restore to an 'original' condition - it's a contradiction in terms,but you can restore 'the appearance' of something so that it looks as it did when it was 'original'. IMHO - that's what should be done with this mandolin - purely my personal opinion, & i'd point once more to Ginridge's beautiful restoration. If i was the OP & i could have my mandolin restored like that,i'd travel a long way to get it done !!,
Ivan

[Urthona]

For anyone interested in how this worked out I ended up restoring the top myself with StewMac tobacco dye and French polishing (and fitting a Cumberland Acoustics bridge). The result wouldn't fool an expert into thinking the top was original, but it looks pretty good, and thanks to the bridge it sounds and plays much better.

[MikeEdgerton]

It looks good to me. Enjoy it.

[Urthona]

A new photo of the restored top with a bit of antiquing--paste wax applied and removed four times with slightly abrasive terry towel after spiriting off--no oil or final polishing--with a tiny amount of shellac and a lot of Everclear in the pad. Looks pretty plausible, but will look even more plausible in a year or two.