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  1. #1

    Default overnight improvements?!

    Hey, fellow mandolieri!

    This might be somewhat of an odd question or entry at all. As I am playing every day I am well aware of my progress (I am in my second year right now) and I found that I got an existimated 50 percent faster on the mandolin from one day to another. Quasi overnight. It still sounds a bit sloppy from time to time but I'm nonetheless quite baffled. How does that work? Have you guys made similiar experiences? That something just klicks the other day?
    I am not as fast as that little guy... not yet

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    Default Re: overnight improvements?!

    Muscle memory is acquired in a non-linear fashion. Sometimes one can struggle for weeks on getting the fingers to handle a passage. Then in one day huge advances are made. Enjoy the breakthroughs, be easy on yourself when it goes slowly. All part of the process.
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    Default Re: overnight improvements?!

    I've noticed something in my 4 years of playing that I'm sure can't be proven, but it's predictable for me.

    If I practice a lot, I don't gain noticeable improvement until days later, and the most noticeable improvement comes maybe after I've taken a day off from playing. In the same vein - if I practice more than usual just prior to a jam, I'm apt to play worse than if I'd left it alone.

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    Default Re: overnight improvements?!

    Quote Originally Posted by guidoStow View Post
    Muscle memory is acquired in a non-linear fashion. Sometimes one can struggle for weeks on getting the fingers to handle a passage. Then in one day huge advances are made. Enjoy the breakthroughs, be easy on yourself when it goes slowly. All part of the process.
    Absolutely true! The process often seems slow - but you do get the occasional 'breakthrough' moments when all-of-a-sudden you feel like a whole new player.

    I was away from the mandolin for 11 years before I came back to it earlier this year. For weeks I thought that I had lost almost everything that I picked up in my initial mandolin phase - and even considered quitting a couple of times . . . but then, all-in-the-blink-of-an-eye, it came back to me. Those flashes are seemingly few and far between - but enjoy the progress and keep plugging at it!

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    Registered User Simon DS's Avatar
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    Default Re: overnight improvements?!

    Physical exercise (running or arm work), improvement for me is a couple of days later. Also, I often have a huge improvement in my singing voice- yes there's room for improvement- that's the day after I do aerobics.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Wilson View Post
    I've noticed something in my 4 years of playing that I'm sure can't be proven, but it's predictable for me.
    If I practice a lot, I don't gain noticeable improvement until days later, and the most noticeable improvement comes maybe after I've taken a day off from playing. In the same vein - if I practice more than usual just prior to a jam, I'm apt to play worse than if I'd left it alone.
    I can believe you I do the same thing. I'll work and work one session trying to get " muscle memory" on a tricky piece and just can't do it. I'll try again next day or even a couple days later and suddenly it just falls into place.

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    Default Re: overnight improvements?!

    Thanks a lot for the responses! That's very interesting!
    I am not as fast as that little guy... not yet

    Proud owner of a BlueChip CT-55... the magic pick

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    Middle-Aged Old-Timer Tobin's Avatar
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    Ah yes, overnight improvements. That always happens to me when I stay at a Holiday Inn Express.
    Keep that skillet good and greasy all the time!

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    Default Re: overnight improvements?!

    If you're interested in a good read as a starting point I would recommend having a read of Phantoms in the Brain by V.S.Ramachandran. It gives a good insight into how malleable the brain & self are and how quickly we can re-map functions along with some interesting musings on the role of feedback and how we assign many habitual functions to the more primitive brain. Often proficiency (once we have trained ourselves) is a result of learning how to get our more evolved brain functions out of the way & trust to the functions & feedback we assimilate at a more direct level. In other words relaxing and not overthinking what we already have learned.
    Eoin



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    harvester of clams Bill McCall's Avatar
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    Default Re: overnight improvements?!

    Unfortunately this is not an easily repeatable, linear process, or we'd all be playing like Chris Thile. Of course, I can only speak for myself. YMMV

    On the other hand, many musicians become overnight successes after 25 years of practice.

    'this is your brain on music' provides some interesting scientific insights for the curious.
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    Default Re: overnight improvements?!

    I sometimes have overnight un-improvements, too.

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    Default Re: overnight improvements?!

    I experience it in steps of improvement, as everyone is describing. But I think the reason is different. I think when we practice regularly and play a lot, we just don't see the incremental improvements. Then all of a sudden we notice something.

    I was blown away the first time someone told me to slow down, people were having trouble keeping up. Who me? You talkin' to me?

    The small incremental gains are less noticeable, and may not even be measureable. Small increments in speed and dexterity sure, but also improvements in attention, focus, musical intuition, interval recognition, detecting chord changes, all kinds of stuff that is not easily measured but bit by bit all agglutinates synergistically. The "all of a sudden" part is noticing you are better or this is easier.

    It is a lot like turning 40. After being 39 for ever.... suddenly you need advil every morning.
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    MandolaViola bratsche's Avatar
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    Default Re: overnight improvements?!

    Just remember, it's all happening in your brain, of which your fingers (muscles in "muscle memory") are just an extension. Your subconscious mind is busy sorting things out for you after the practice session is over, even when you're away from the instrument doing other things. I'm convinced it sometimes does even while one's sleeping. This is normal.

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    Default Re: overnight improvements?!

    It's in the muscles, too. Much of my playing and practice is with warmed-up but partially tired muscles. This may be the pattern for days on end, when I am putting in several hours of practice daily. Then, after perhaps a missed day, I might just go straight into the things I was working on, and discover they seem easy and fluid. The difference could be mainly about fresh muscles. Consider that even in their best athletic years, baseball pitchers are better with a few days off.

    The paradox is that the desire to make faster progress invites excessive fatigue and injury. But one can't simply sleep-learn. Finding the best proportion between large effort and healthy rest is not easy, nor is there a answer that applies to everyone or every kind of practice.
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    MandolaViola bratsche's Avatar
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    Default Re: overnight improvements?!

    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Wright View Post
    The paradox is that the desire to make faster progress invites excessive fatigue and injury. But one can't simply sleep-learn.
    I'm just saying that one needn't always have the instrument in hand in order to make progress. If I'm fatigued to the point of overuse injury being a concern, I'll just sit myself down in a quiet place with the sheet music, and imagine myself practicing through it, with extra attention to the difficult bits, without actually doing so physically. I've even "practiced" inside of my head on such things as memorization, and visualizing myself becoming more fluid and up to speed on passages with tricky picking patterns, while driving alone on long road trips (what else is there worthwhile to do with such vast expanses of time?), and have seen definite results the next time I was able to practice those same things with the actual instrument. It's no surprise, really, as so much of it (at least half) is mental.

    bratsche
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    Registered User Kris N's Avatar
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    Default Re: overnight improvements?!

    I certainly believe in "overnight improvement." Some of the most complex drumming I've learned hasn't been at my drum kit. It may start there with a few trial and errors, but with continual thought about my movements and playing it over and over in my head, I'll sit down at my kit in the next day or two and it just flows out. Now that my focus is on mandolin, I've seen some of this come into play, although​ not as fast.
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    Default Re: overnight improvements?!

    From Mark Wilson - "...and the most noticeable improvement comes maybe after I've taken a day off from playing." Mark,i posted almost exactly the same thing in another thread. In the past,after i'd come back from a 2 week holiday,i expected either my banjo or mandolin playing to take a real nosedive - not a bit of it !. I played like i'd never put them down,& IMO,''better'' = easier,with less effort.

    I think that sometimes we get a bit tired without realising it, & taking a break ''puts us back on the horse''. On some days,if i don't seem to be playing very well,i'll take a rest for a couple of days,& i always come back refreshed in my playing.

    Refering to ''Luxury's'' post above - It's fairly well known that our subconcious mind continues to work 'in the background'. Several Cafe members have posted pretty much the same thing as myself.
    I was working out how to play ''Santa Claus'' played by Bill Keith of Bill Monroe's LP ''Bluegrass Instrumentals'' many years back. I'm not a 'Keith style' banjo player & i was finding it hard to figure out both left & right hand fingering. I got frustrated with it & quit !. Not really being a 'quitter' of any sort,a few days later i decided to give it another try,& within 10 minutes,i'd worked out the first few bars. After that it was easy (sort of). I've no doubt at all that subconciously,the ol' grey cells had been working on it. It happens !!,
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    Middle-Aged Old-Timer Tobin's Avatar
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    Default Re: overnight improvements?!

    Quote Originally Posted by bratsche View Post
    I'm just saying that one needn't always have the instrument in hand in order to make progress. If I'm fatigued to the point of overuse injury being a concern, I'll just sit myself down in a quiet place with the sheet music, and imagine myself practicing through it, with extra attention to the difficult bits, without actually doing so physically. I've even "practiced" inside of my head on such things as memorization, and visualizing myself becoming more fluid and up to speed on passages with tricky picking patterns, while driving alone on long road trips (what else is there worthwhile to do with such vast expanses of time?), and have seen definite results the next time I was able to practice those same things with the actual instrument. It's no surprise, really, as so much of it (at least half) is mental.

    bratsche
    Agree 100%! I use this on a regular basis, due to my hour-long commute each way every day. And since self-driving cars are not a thing yet, I can only practice playing mentally while I'm driving. It really does help to go through the mental exercise of working through difficult passages or just visualizing/internalizing the motions and flow of the music. Just recently, as I've started to transition from clawhammer banjo into old-time two-finger picking, I've noticed dramatic improvements each time I pick up the banjo. And it's because I can work on the finger picking patterns without actually holding my banjo.
    Keep that skillet good and greasy all the time!

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    Default Re: overnight improvements?!

    Quote Originally Posted by bratsche View Post
    I'm just saying that one needn't always have the instrument in hand in order to make progress. If I'm fatigued to the point of overuse injury being a concern, I'll just sit myself down in a quiet place with the sheet music, and imagine myself practicing through it, with extra attention to the difficult bits, without actually doing so physically. I've even "practiced" inside of my head on such things as memorization, and visualizing myself becoming more fluid and up to speed on passages with tricky picking patterns, while driving alone on long road trips (what else is there worthwhile to do with such vast expanses of time?), and have seen definite results the next time I was able to practice those same things with the actual instrument. It's no surprise, really, as so much of it (at least half) is mental.

    bratsche
    I layed in bed last night going over the notes of Irish Washer Woman but I had a constant and annoying flash of the photo of the Gibson Fern for sale in the classifieds that ruined my concentration.

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    Default Re: overnight improvements?!

    It's probably "solidifying" neural pathways. There is of course, learning, or making the initial neural connection. But I too know it takes time. I think of it like a steeping teabag. I trust upon this to the point where I will mess around with a new tune. Not really even playing it through more than three times. I will encapsulate the tune, where I play my arrangement from start to finish. Then I either play something else or do something else. The next time I attempt the new tune, it's remarkably complete.
    I realize it's not really "muscle memory." But it is remarkable one can seemingly watch oneself playing a tune as if it were another person. Watching one's left hand run the fingerboard as if it's on it's own. If this doesn't convince that the brain is wonderful and mysterious, I don't know what will. Moreover, this is not one of those things that is paid as a benefit of having tens of thousands of hours playing time. This is something I found very early on. (early being relative. I started at 30) Learning to trust upon it came a bit later.

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    Default Re: overnight improvements?!

    Quote Originally Posted by farmerjones View Post
    I realize it's not really "muscle memory." But it is remarkable one can seemingly watch oneself playing a tune as if it were another person. Watching one's left hand run the fingerboard as if it's on it's own. If this doesn't convince that the brain is wonderful and mysterious, I don't know what will.
    I'm only an interested duffer on this but from what I've read on how the old noggin works, in a sense it is the 'someone else' that is a basic part of how our brains are built. For example the output from out eyes goes very directly to the Superior Colliculus (very primitave brain development at brain stem) while also branching through the lateral geniculate neucleus and on to the visual cortex splitting again for higher level analysis of what is seen (what is it? & how does it affect my position? etc) this can give rise to situations where people unable to see on a conscious level due to damage to the visual cortex etc, are sometimes shown to be visually aware of objects, even knowing where they are to grab. Hunters are also very familiar with this phenomenon of unconsciously seeing and understanding the presence and location of potential quarry, while not knowing what it actually is until they get to focus on it. We also see it happen where people react incredibly quickly to a sudden hazzard, even though they don't know what it is, they can judge it with pinpoint accuracy, even catching the proverbial 'falling knife' before they realise they shouldn't really try to grab one of those.

    Many of our most refexive functions seem to be similarly linked (via the primitive relay station of the thalamus), with some like smell being very directly linked to the Limbic system which is where we process information derived from events, memories of them and emotional associations. One thing the brain gets very good at is being efficient at saving processing effort, especially where repetitive and predictable tasks are concerned. Once the brain has the patterns sorted out it seems to shunt the task to some where other than our higher brain processes presumably to free them up for the next new high-need task.
    There is a sense in which the more relaxed you are, the more likely the brain is going to think 'got that down' let's file it here out of the way.
    If you we're still fussing over it then it's probably going to need to be held ready for analysis in the higher processing. The importance of rest & confidence seem to play a role here. But I suppose that means if you're relaxed about learning it wrong or poorly and don't get it in a decent state, then unlearning or correcting it would need the info dragging out again for proper analysis & re-learning.

    Any brain researchers on here?
    Eoin



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    Middle-Aged Old-Timer Tobin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beanzy View Post
    Any brain researchers on here?
    I'm not a brain surgeon, nor do I play one on TV. But Josh Turknett is a well-known and respected neuroscientist who studies the human brain for a living, and happens to be a great banjo player. He has a whole website dedicated to teaching clawhammer banjo, and he writes a series of articles where he talks about how to maximize learning by understanding how our brains work. His learning system is cleverly named Brainjo. It's written in layman's terms so it doesn't confuse us poor toothless banjo players, but it's pretty interesting reading. I've found it very helpful. And whilte it's tailored to the banjo, 99% of it is applicable to any instrument.

    Some light reading: https://clawhammerbanjo.net/the-immu...tive-practice/
    Keep that skillet good and greasy all the time!

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    Default Re: overnight improvements?!

    This improvement after a day off and the idea of muscle memory and all that is very much like strength training with barbells.

    Barbell strength training relies on the stress/adaptation cycle that is present in all living things. When subjected to a stress you either adapt or you die. To get stronger, you add a little bit more weight to the barbell each time. (It's how as a 5'3" 50+ lady I have been able to squat over 200lbs). When this process is applied to learning a musical instrument, the adaptation results in improved skills (plus things like calluses.) With any stress, if there is too much of it, instead of adapting you get worse. If there is too little, you don't improve. So you give the stress to yourself in doses separated by a period of rest. It's during the rest that the adaptation occurs. This is why you see improvements after a period of time away or after sleep.

    Your brain rests and adapts builds new neurons during sleep. There's a lot of literature out there about practicing the piano before sleeping and in my personal experience it works. The recovery time is when the actual adaptation occurs. That's why it's such a surprise after a short time away that you suddenly have better skills than when you last practiced.

    As an old lady barbell lifter, I have learned that this stress/adaptation thing works for pretty much everything and that it doesn't stop working just because you are old. They always say it's too hard to learn a new instrument after childhood. Maybe, but it isn't impossible if you approach it from the stress/adaptation cycle. Small doses separated by rest and sleep. This way you can achieve more than you think.

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    but that's just me Bertram Henze's Avatar
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    Default Re: overnight improvements?!

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    MandolaViola bratsche's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sbhikes View Post
    As an old lady barbell lifter, I have learned that this stress/adaptation thing works for pretty much everything and that it doesn't stop working just because you are old.
    Please do be cautious and careful with yourself, though. A good friend of mine has to do basically everything for her husband, now in his late 80s, because his body is so crippled up from having weightlifted to excess, as he readily admits, when he was younger.

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