Play for free ...

[catmandu2]

Our Friday night parking lot jam brings out a lawn chair audience of anywhere from 10 - 50. No one expects compensation (although one regular listener knitted me an afghan). I often see musicians "performing" songs at venues and that is all. They have not invested the time and effort to put together a set list that flows (often pausing to reflect "what should I / we play next?), they interact very little with the audience and are doing nothing or very little to help the event owner keep the customers there and spending money, donating our whatever the "ask" might be. Finally, there are what I call entertainers - the ones that put it all together and create a high value and enjoyable evening for the listeners - they get the bucks!

Each of the three has a place and can be rewarding ...

When I went to Edmonton on a business trip about 10years ago, I was reading an article on how big a music scene there used to be there. But club owners started hiring lousy talent because they played cheap or free and brought in friends. Due to this the quality of the music went down. If a place gets bluegrass band to play for free, and for some unforeseen, unexplainable reason, there were people there who never heard bluegrass, changes are they will not get a real representation of the music compared to a more accomplished band that would not play for free.

Good example showing why this must be considered in its systemic aspect. An environment (or culture) where the patronship is not invested in - in this case live music performance (assumedly) - affects the dynamic adversely and systemically. We cannot minimize or exploit a resource of value without having an effect in system. Practices of fair exchange must exist or a breakdown somewhere in the system occurs.

It's a simple and fundamental principle, yet often goes without heed.

From the perspective of the venue - which may be trying to derive 'entertainment' from amateur 'players,' perhaps not understanding dynamics, etc - there is this consequence.

[Ausdoerrt]

That is a great explanation and I 100% agree! Simply being a good musician is not enough.

There are exceptions, of course (especially in the classical music world where it's all about performance and 'entertainment' in the modern sense is something out of the ordinary).

But it's a good rule of thumb. You sell a whole package, not just your ability to play an instrument. A (popular) musician who stares at his instrument all night is almost as bad as someone who can't play/sing in tune.

[allenhopkins]

I shed no tears for the "plight" of the club owner who doesn't pay musicians because it's "complicated." I've been involved with running a twice-monthly concert series, under the auspices of a small-town public library, for seven years now. We ask for a "donation" at the door, five or ten dollars depending on the status (which we measure subjectively) of the performer, and we give the performer the entire "gate" minus expenses. The library doesn't charge us rent, and we get some touring and regional performers that you've actually heard of. (By the way, if you've never heard Loren Barrigar and Mark Mazengarb, you should.)

Now, obviously, the three of us aren't trying to make a living from this; we do it for free, 'cause we like doing it. But if we were a "music club," we'd be taking in a good deal more revenue, from food and alcohol sales, and we'd charge more at the door -- and it wouldn't be a non-enforceable "donation," either. True, we'd have employees to pay, and rent, and taxes (nice to be sheltered under the library's umbrella). But we'd damn well pay the musicians who drew people into the venue.

Running a club or coffeehouse is a chancy proposition, at best; they go into and out of business frequently around here. Like the bed-and-breakfast, it's what everyone thinks would be fun to do, and wouldn't be that hard. Wrong. But the solution's not to try to get people to play for nothing. Our little Tunes By the Tracks has an open mic portion, and people show up who want to play a song or two, but any scheduled feature performer will get paid -- not a lot, but a decent wage for a one-hour set.

Not trying to seem virtuous, but trying to treat musicians the way we'd like to be treated.

[billkilpatrick]

… You sell a whole package, not just your ability to play an instrument. A (popular) musician who stares at his instrument all night is almost as bad as someone who can't play/sing in tune.

One of many reasons why I'm not a professional musician. "Acting out" the music would be embarrassing in the extreme for me, facial grimacing, writhing around in contortions, moanin'ana'groanin' … bah!

[Ausdoerrt]

You could try dancing, it's probably not as embarrassing, but it does take a bit of practice to do both at the same time.

[Bertram Henze]

One of many reasons why I'm not a professional musician. "Acting out" the music would be embarrassing in the extreme for me, facial grimacing, writhing around in contortions, moanin'ana'groanin' … bah!

I am not sure that acting out would suffice. To entertain, you have to sell not just music or moves but your whole personality. Making people want to play or dance like you is not enough, they must want to be like you, their lives must feel dreary and empty without you.

For reasons of symmetry, your life must also feel dreary and empty without them. It comes at a price.

[billkilpatrick]

… To entertain, you have to sell not just music or moves but your whole personality. …

Ahhh … there's the rub. Introverts unite! - separately and in your own homes ...

[billkilpatrick]

Bluegrass musicians tend to be undemonstrative while playing.

[Tobin]

I shed no tears for the "plight" of the club owner who doesn't pay musicians because it's "complicated." I've been involved with running a twice-monthly concert series, under the auspices of a small-town public library, for seven years now.

Well, obviously, as you know, a public library plays by a different set of rules than a private business. They can do things that business owners can't legally do without declaring taxes, carrying additional insurance, etc. I'm not trying to drum up sympathy for business owners or anything, but it is important to try to understand things from the perspective of small business owners. I don't think I'm overstating things when I say that many of them live in constant fear of being put out of business by the tax man, local government officials who can always claim that local zoning/code/permit rules are being broken, etc. Most of them are forced to skirt the rules where they can, just to scrape by. I'm talking about the real mom & pop type establishments. I know enough small business owners, and the issues they deal with, to be willing to help them out where they can.

Running a club or coffeehouse is a chancy proposition, at best; they go into and out of business frequently around here. Like the bed-and-breakfast, it's what everyone thinks would be fun to do, and wouldn't be that hard. Wrong. But the solution's not to try to get people to play for nothing. Our little Tunes By the Tracks has an open mic portion, and people show up who want to play a song or two, but any scheduled feature performer will get paid -- not a lot, but a decent wage for a one-hour set.

That is as it should be. I do think there's room for both. Local amateur musicians who just want to play publicly for free should get their chance, and "booked" acts should get paid. I think it would go a long way towards resolving the issue if the venue owners were open and transparent with the paid performers about what they actually make per night, and what their expenses are, from the cost of the food and drinks to the electric bill, rent, insurance, wages, etc. I would bet that a lot of musicians would be surprised at the razor-thin profits that a lot of small businesses are making. Approaching it as more of a business partnership to benefit both parties, instead of an adversarial relationship, is always a good start.

[catmandu2]

Yes, I'm not going to vilify the 'club owner' out of hand. There are many factors in the equation. Among them may be the perception - hey, if good craic (and entertainment for patrons) can be had among session players in an Irish-style pub (without being paid monetarily), why not in my establishment?

Also, I've no personal experience with non-paying clubs: when I was playing them, it was $100/person. Of course it wasn't 'folk' music. But isn't 'folk' music a bit of a tenuous animal, traditionally, in terms of its money-making potential? When I wanted to make money performing music, I formed or joined bands with established earning potential (for the club market). 'Concertizing' - whether folk, classical or jazz - is subject to other variables.

[NursingDaBlues]

Razor-thin margins are no reason to take advantage of folks trying to provide a valuable service. Call me heartless, but I believe in survival of the fittest. For a business to survive, it has to provide something that people are willing to pay for. It has to be properly managed. It has to follow a business plan. It requires adequate marketing. And it requires adequate capital. Take away any of those and the business will fail. Hey, I applaud the entrepreneurial spirit. But I don’t believe that gives a franchise operation, a corporate entity, or a mom and pop enterprise the right to take money out of someone else’s pocket.

I know. I owned my own business for 25 years until I retired. While my business was not retail or entertainment based, razor-thin margins are a fact of life in just about any business. If a business wants to include entertainment, then they first have to justify it – will the entertainment bring incremental business in? If yes, then the cost of the entertainment has to be added to the cost of doing business. If no, then the idea needs to be scrapped. However, even if there is incremental business, if the incremental business won’t produce a profit margin that will cover the cost, then you don’t do it. Because why should you do something that will not make you money? It’s that simple. It’s called management. It’s called operating with a business plan.

If you operate a business the way it’s supposed to be operated, you don’t have to resort to squeezing other folks trying to make a living.

[Mandobart]

Some interesting and valid responses as usual. I'm a pretty good musician, been playing various instruments for over 40 years. I get a handful of paid gigs a year, but I have never attempted to support my family financially with my musical skills. I'm also a skilled residential plumber and electrician, but again that's not my day job. I've never attempted to support my family financially through these skills either. When I help a friend with their plumbing or electrical problems for a couple beers and dinner am I stealing work from a union craftsman? I don't think so - I'm using my skills to help someone. Is it unethical to donate those skills on a Habitat for Humanity home?

When I play for a friend's wedding gratis am I "stealing" work from a union musician? Just a question is anyone reading this even a member of a Musician's Union? There was a time in America when being a trained, skilled musician was seen as a skilled trade like carpentry, pipefitting, etc. You never see electricians, auto mechanics, plumbers, etc. down on the corner plying their trade for tips....

[Tobin]

Razor-thin margins are no reason to take advantage of folks trying to provide a valuable service. Call me heartless, but I believe in survival of the fittest. For a business to survive, it has to provide something that people are willing to pay for. It has to be properly managed. It has to follow a business plan. It requires adequate marketing. And it requires adequate capital. Take away any of those and the business will fail. Hey, I applaud the entrepreneurial spirit. But I don’t believe that gives a franchise operation, a corporate entity, or a mom and pop enterprise the right to take money out of someone else’s pocket.

All the things you just said apply to musicians just as equally as business owners.

If you want to survive as a paid musician, you have to provide a service people are willing to pay for, and work hard to make it happen. If people aren't willing to pay for it, what does that say about your business model or the value of the service you provide? That's where I see the disconnect here. Musicians sometimes tend to think that they are in some sort of special category that exists independently of the rest of the business world, and that their pay should be based on some sort of moral high ground rather than the actual market.

But the truth is, if local venues aren't willing to pay for musicians to play, then there simply isn't a market for your services. Or perhaps the market is flooded by those who play for free. You can try to create one by convincing them of the value. You can search other markets. But business is business. They don't owe you the right to play in their establishment for the pay you are demanding, any more than you owe them the right to cater food and drinks to your next party.

And let's be fair here when we use phrases like "take money out of someone else's pocket". No business owner can force you to play music for free. You, as a musician, have the right to enter into a contract or not. It's totally up to you. They cannot steal your services without your consent. All they can do is refuse to hire you for the pay you want. You, as a businessman, can choose to walk away. Obviously, if they break a contract you've already made with respect to paying you after you've played, that's a different story. But I don't think that's what we're talking about here.

[NursingDaBlues]

Some interesting and valid responses as usual. I'm a pretty good musician, been playing various instruments for over 40 years. I get a handful of paid gigs a year, but I have never attempted to support my family financially with my musical skills. I'm also a skilled residential plumber and electrician, but again that's not my day job. I've never attempted to support my family financially through these skills either. When I help a friend with their plumbing or electrical problems for a couple beers and dinner am I stealing work from a union craftsman? I don't think so - I'm using my skills to help someone. Is it unethical to donate those skills on a Habitat for Humanity home?

When I play for a friend's wedding gratis am I "stealing" work from a union musician? Just a question is anyone reading this even a member of a Musician's Union? There was a time in America when being a trained, skilled musician was seen as a skilled trade like carpentry, pipefitting, etc. You never see electricians, auto mechanics, plumbers, etc. down on the corner plying their trade for tips....

For me, the operative phrase that I used earlier is: "if someone wants to hire me to perform..." What a person does for civic or personal good is purely his/her own decision. Some may take a harder stance while others may not draw any type of distinction. That is their choice and I certainly will not try to impose my own thoughts on anyone. My opinions are simply that -- my opinions.

In a lot of ways, I miss the climate of the late ‘60s early ‘70s. The musician’s local where I lived was pretty strong. They made sure that session players and house bands were paid well; contracts were reviewed every year; and members had a hard deck on the base amount they were to be paid. You could ask for more, but you could never go below the minimum. The majority of the clubs hired union to ensure that they got quality bands and wouldn’t get no-shows. Musicians knew that they would have decent playing conditions and wouldn’t get stiffed. Venues that did not abide by contracts or were slow-or non-pay would get black listed; and it was difficult for a venue to get off a black list. Most bands on tour would always register with the local when they came through to ensure that their interests would be protected before, during, and after their performance at a local venue. Members received retirement and health benefits. And because musicians for the most part were musicians, and not very good business people, you had someone always speaking for you. If you played music, you became a member of the local. Unfortunately, it's not that way anymore. Oh, well.

[NursingDaBlues]

All the things you just said apply to musicians just as equally as business owners.

And I wholeheartedly agree with your statement. And much of what you said for that matter.

Yes, I can choose to walk away from an offer. However, I don't especially care for the "take it or leave it" practice that I've experienced. I leave it. So do many of my peers. But there are some musicians who take it because they think that's all they've got.

[dhergert]

My band is a Gospel band. We enjoy performing our music well enough that we want to play whenever we can... The majority of our "gigs" are for small churches that have no budget for music; we gladly do programs for them as our schedule allows.

But when asked by larger churches or by promoters of larger events or festivals, we do routinely ask "What is your budget for music for this event?" It's a simple, non-assuming question, and even if there is no budget our band will still discuss and consider doing the "gig".

Asking this question lets the venue know (1) that we are confident in our program quality and know our music has value, (2) we have enough experience with doing "gigs" that we know we should ask this question and (3) that if there is a music budget and if we agree to play, we expect to get a share of that budget.

If we do get to a point of discussing fees with a venue, we also have a separate fee if we're asked to provide our own sound equipment and mixing. And we'll also discuss travel and housing expenses if they are involved.

We also do perform for a few small local businesses doing both Gospel and secular programming... And we'll ask this "music budget" question for these businesses unless they specifically bring up pay. But again, the answer does not necessarily determine whether we will play or not.

Music is a very competitive business to be in. If a band wishes to go "pay-only", the quality of their performances need to be an obvious level above the bands that are willing to play for free. That doesn't happen automatically, it requires lots of individual practice on the part of each band member and as a group, it requires careful planning of each gig, it requires managing the band as a professional business and it requires providing extraordinary value to the businesses that hire the band.

In my opinion, discouraging local bands from playing for free is simply anti-competitive, and discouraging small businesses from bringing in free bands will simply squash possible venues for people who just want to perform for the fun of it. Bands that want to go "pay-only" need to either be at the top of the food chain and be worth "pay-only", or they need to keep their day jobs.

[Charlieshafer]

I think the days of the local bands seem to be largely over. Robert Fear correctly pointed out that from a business standpoint, a bar that runs karaoke and open mics will have increased attendance over a simple local band. It's not the pay issue, it's people in the pub and number of drinks sold. If a band wants to get paid $500, it'll have to prove it can sell in pure profit, not just gross sales, more than $500 worth of food/beverages. That's hard to do in a small bar. The ones that do pay well are few and far between, and usually are music-oriented bars with years of experience running shows, and they alternate between local up-and-coming acts and smaller touring pros. Plus, most bars are very rock-oriented. Folk songs don't get people in a party/beverage consumption mood. In our area, Cafe Nine in New Haven is the perfect example.

And, on the meaning of the word professional, it means only that you derive a full-time income from music. Classical players do this by combining private teaching studios, weddings or other small gigs, plus the very part-time world of the actual symphony performance. A true performance-only professional simply has to tour, at the very least nationally, to make a go of it. You simply can't stay local as the market will be saturated.

For the touring artist to make a living, they might play the occasional bar, but the money is at the small performing arts centers. Here, acoustic music of many sorts is expected, and eagerly anticipated. Some may seat 70 or so people, like Club Passim in Boston, and the bigger ones that seat around 200, are like Berkeley Freight and Salvage. Note that while they all serve food, it's just light stuff. They do serve beverages, and this is where the safety net comes from.

I've a good friend who is the beverage manager at a really up-and-coming arts organization, the Fairfield Theatre Company and on many of the nights during the midweek, the manager would have to back to the bar till to get enough money to pay the band.

I have linked to these venues so you can see the level of musicians coming through. The bar is set really high. For my own venue, which is all-volunteer and non-profit, young artists need to be on a level of a Molly Tuttle, or Brittany Haas, or as a group, 9 Horses or Ten Strings and A Goatskin. Established players need to be at the level of Alasdair Fraser and Natalie Haas, Mike Marshall and Darol Anger, John Jorgensen, Ben Sollee, or Jeremy Kittel. Any less than that, and I won't get people to come. Audiences are a lot more discerning, and the older ones also tend to want a calmer environment without the loud bar-noise scene.

So, the mid-level guys, who used to make a few extra bucks locally, are squeezed out. I'm not saying it's right, but it's the way it is. When I play out with the fiddle club, we will ask for a few bucks just to help run the program and pay instructors for the kids, but if it's a non-profit also, we won't charge. We'll have 6-year old kids and 85 year-old grandmas in there; how can you charge for that? When it's a few friends playing together to have a good time, we'll just head to open mics: we're all busy folks, no one has that much time to practice, so we really don't deserve any pay, but it's great to have a bar to go to, have people yell at you (for better or worse) and in general have a blast. On a Wednesday night, with open mic at this place, it'll be packed. When I rive by the same bar on a Saturday night, with a live local band, the place will only be half full.

To quote James Carvill, "It's the economy, stupid."

[A-board]

Before I picked up the mandolin, I sang with an acapella (not barbershop) group for about 10 yrs. Our first gig, unpaid, led to paid gigs as time went on. Eventually, we got connected to corporate functions and that represented the bulk of our performances in later years; corp gigs were frequently the result of our personal networking. We all had fulltime jobs and took no money out and used the funds to self produce 2 CDs which were million sellers ("I've got a million of them in my cellar!").

Now, I jam with a group whose members are connected to a regional social/activity group. These folks provide an opportunity to build our (unpaid) chops at small house parties. As it happens, we get a little better as time goes on. Maybe there's an eventual payday!

[Austin Bob]

To quote James Carvill, "It's the economy, stupid."

This really sums up this whole discussion in a nutshell.

[leftus maximus]

I play in a lot of trad sessions and have done in many places in Europe and USA. It's understood that the players may not expect to be paid, but a pint or perhaps some snacks thrown in shows at least a bit of proactive thinking.

My local pub, which is a great place in the middle of nowhere, just a mere stagger across a field from my house, has new 'management', who have turfed out the session after an hour because they need the tables for people to eat at.

I started that session about ten years ago and it's incredibly galling that the shot termist, money grabbing attitude from these guys has effectively ruined something that has been built up over years and has a name where people from out of town come and visit, and are now disappointed to find out that the session is no more. It now resides in a pub in town, where as soon as you go in, before you take off your jacket, a barman will come over with a glass and £50 in it, even if it's outwith the regular agreed time and dates.

Now the session is buzzing and well attended.

Another place in town lets local artists play there 'for the exposure'. I'd expose my lily white butt to anyone who tries that one with me

[Bertram Henze]

My local pub, which is a great place in the middle of nowhere, just a mere stagger across a field from my house, has new 'management', who have turfed out the session after an hour because they need the tables for people to eat at.

Their food must be extraordinary to justify that step
OTOH, if it's the only place to eat "in the middle of nowhere", they might have a point. In town there's more competition where customers' ears can make an extra difference beside their stomachs.

[leftus maximus]

Their food must be extraordinary to justify that step
OTOH, if it's the only place to eat "in the middle of nowhere", they might have a point. In town there's more competition where customers' ears can make an extra difference beside their stomachs.

Nah it's just standard pub grub, and not exactly great at that. In saying that it's in the middle of nowhere it's only a few miles from the nearest town.

The thing is the previous management have always realised that a good session will bring people in and keep them in. We've made that place a lot of money but they think that the musicians can be picked up and dropped when it suits. It doesn't work that way.

The session has pretty much stopped, with only a few locals going along and playing outside when the weather suits. It's a bit acrimonious and awkward from our point of view. They've also been told why people don't go any more yet keep expecting people to turn up. It's also the first thing they have in their advertising.

They're trying to be clever and stingy but unfortunately it's very transparent and people have walked.

[Bertram Henze]

... they think that the musicians can be picked up and dropped when it suits.

[Tobin]

My local pub, which is a great place in the middle of nowhere, just a mere stagger across a field from my house, has new 'management', who have turfed out the session after an hour because they need the tables for people to eat at.

I started that session about ten years ago and it's incredibly galling that the shot termist, money grabbing attitude from these guys has effectively ruined something that has been built up over years and has a name where people from out of town come and visit, and are now disappointed to find out that the session is no more.

I can understand the disappointment of losing your regular session spot, but can you not see it from the business owner's perspective? It's not "money grubbing" to try to put paying customers at tables. That's what his business is there for, pure and simple. Having musicians occupying space is all well and good if the owner needs help attracting customers, but if they at some point are an impediment to his ability to fully utilize his seating space, then any practical business owner is going to have to find a way to get those customers seated. Otherwise, he is losing potential business. And that's not a wise business decision.

I mean no disrespect here, but this is the sort of attitude that can be problematic amongst musicians, causing discord with businesses. There seems to be an entitlement mentality that musicians are more important than the business owner's needs. I think a lot of us sometimes forget that a restaurant, bar, or other small business has a first priority of making a living. Having musicians in their establishment should be part of the mechanism for them to increase their business. They are not there for charity. If you can help them improve their business model, then it's a win-win scenario. But if at any point the musicians are costing them too much, or not bringing in enough new customers to be worth what they're paying/comping, or taking up space that paying customers should be using, then it's a problem. And we need to be sensitive to that. It's not all about us when it comes to playing in someone else's business establishment.

[Bertram Henze]

There seems to be an entitlement mentality that musicians are more important than the business owner's needs.

Such musicians exist, but normally an agreement can be arrived at, as long as it's reliable.
It's more a question of time scale: just like eating customers like to know in advance if they will get a seat before driving miles and miles, so will musicians. The danger of suddenly being rushed out in a matter of minutes is something I would not put up with.