New member - new-ish to Mandolin (already play guitar)

[Siberian Khatru]

Hi folks, first post here. I am a long time guitar player looking to get into mandolin playing a bit more. Briefly, I have played them in the past including an Irish Bouzouki (octave mandolin?) and been told I have a certain affinity for them. I understand that the courses are octaves arranged in the reverse of guitar (G-D-A-E) and spread in fourths. I can hack out a few chords and get a nice rhythm going and I love the sound! A friend gave me an Aria mandolin that was in turn given to him and it was nice of him to do so. However, this mandolin seems to have playing issues especially up the neck and so I am looking for a "next" mandolin that is playable in all areas.

I guess I'd like a workingman's mandolin if I was pressed for a descriptor. I play Taylor guitars if that helps. I love the look of an A style mandolin with an oval hole even though from what I can tell, folks seem to more gravitate to the F style with the scroll. Still, I guess perhaps tapping into my Slavic roots and A style just appeals to me somehow astheticly. I have looked at the Eastman 504 and 604 initially, but I thought I'd ask here for opinions since this is a Mandolin Cafe and all.

Any other recommendations? Price is not a serious issue, but a $4k mandolin would likely be lost on me at the same time so that would maybe be overkill. I'm guessing $1k and below maybe is a good place to start? I also would prefer to see one in person if possible before I buy, but it's not strictly a requirement if the the online dealership is reputable, fair and does a good setup before shipping it. I live in the Harrisburg PA area so anything within driving distance may be a player, as long as they have a nice selection. If there are none (I am aware of Appalachian Bluegrass Shoppe already, but they seem to indicate low stock just now -- maybe I'll call) what are some trustworthy online dealers?

BTW, my name is Steve -- glad to be here.

[MikeZito]

Welcome aboard Steve:

As a former Taylor player myself, I can relate to your desire for an instrument that plays well; (my old Taylor's played almost effortlessly).

You will get 10,000 pieces of advice with this question - so why not chime in with my experience and make it 10,001?

I promise to keep in brief . . . .

Basically, Eastman is a good name for quality 'beginner' mandolins under $1000, so they are definitely worth checking out. Kentucky is also another name that you often can't go wrong with from a quality-for-the-price perspective. I am sure that others will suggest other names as well.

Being a guitarist, I am sure that you are well aware that a good set-up is the key to playability in any instrument, and if you want a mandolin that is affordable and beautifully set up, you will probably find 'The Mandolin Store' as the first place you should consider visiting - they offer good prices and expert set-up with every purchase . . . I have yet to see a complaint about anything bought from them.

Again, good luck and welcome aboard.

[multidon]

Welcome Steve!

You do have a couple of misconceptions here. Let us straighten things out for you.

First, mandolin family instruments are in fifths, not fourths. Commonly, that means, bottom to top, GDAE. The Irish bouzouki is actually considered a type of octave mandolin, meaning it sounds an octave lower than regular mandolin. They are really a completely different animal than regular mandolins as far as playing technique is concerned. A bouzouki is close to a guitar scale length but mandolin, with its approximately 14 inch scale length, is approached more like violin fingering, with the fingers pointing more towards the frets rather than at a right angle. Each finger is responsible for more than one fret as well. And left hand fingering on mandolin requires a much lighter touch than guitar, or you'll grind the frets away quickly.

There is nothing wrong with coming to mandolin from guitar. Many have walked that path before you. But you just have to be aware that it is not a little guitar, it is its own instrument, with its own unique playing technique. And the skills needed for setting it up to play properly are different from guitars. Your average tech at Guitar Center will not know the correct specs or have the necessary experience to properly set up a mandolin. That's why, when you go to Guitar center, the guitars are all set up well, but the mandolins are always miserable.

As far as instrument quality goes, you are familiar with Taylor guitars, and that's good. As a general rule of thumb, you will pay twice as much for a mandolin of comparable quality. If your Taylor cost 1500 for example, expect to pay 3000 for similar quality. Of course a beginner doesn't necessarily need top quality, but what you need is a good set up by someone who knows mandolins. It would be best to purchase from a dealer who includes set up. The Mandolin Store, Elderly Instruments, and Folkmusician.com are three go-to businesses mentioned here a lot. All three have great instruments including professional set up.

Bluegrass players almost always want F holes, whether A or F style. The F holes help to give the more percussive attack to the notes that help them to be heard over the other instruments in the band. Other styles may use F holes but oval holes are great too, usually with more mellow and well balanced tone. Oval holes are associated with classical, old time, and Celtic styles. But if you choose oval hole you pretty much cut yourself out of traditional Bluegrass.

Playing before you buy is always good advice, but since you are a beginner it is difficult to know what you like. Eastman instruments are fine, but they have very small frets and narrow nuts. Guitar players who switch to mandolin may prefer the feel of bigger frets and wider nuts for the feel. You might many to check out the Kentucky or "the Loar" lines. A or F style? Endless arguments here, but F style instruments cost a lot more because of the additional work involved in making the scrolls and points, among other factors. But the extra money doesn't buy you better tone, it just gets you "the look". That being said, having an instrument that is aesthetically pleasing as well as good sounding is important to a great many people, or F styles would not sell as well as they do.

Hope all this is helpful! Good luck and keep us posted!

[Siberian Khatru]

Welcome Steve!

You do have a couple of misconceptions here. Let us straighten things out for you.

First, mandolin family instruments are in fifths, not fourths. Commonly, that means, bottom to top, GDAE. The Irish bouzouki is actually considered a type of octave mandolin, meaning it sounds an octave lower than regular mandolin. They are really a completely different animal than regular mandolins as far as playing technique is concerned. A bouzouki is close to a guitar scale length but mandolin, with its approximately 14 inch scale length, is approached more like violin fingering, with the fingers pointing more towards the frets rather than at a right angle. Each finger is responsible for more than one fret as well. And left hand fingering on mandolin requires a much lighter touch than guitar, or you'll grind the frets away quickly.

There is nothing wrong with coming to mandolin from guitar. Many have walked that path before you. But you just have to be aware that it is not a little guitar, it is its own instrument, with its own unique playing technique. And the skills needed for setting it up to play properly are different from guitars. Your average tech at Guitar Center will not know the correct specs or have the necessary experience to properly set up a mandolin. That's why, when you go to Guitar center, the guitars are all set up well, but the mandolins are always miserable.

As far as instrument quality goes, you are familiar with Taylor guitars, and that's good. As a general rule of thumb, you will pay twice as much for a mandolin of comparable quality. If your Taylor cost 1500 for example, expect to pay 3000 for similar quality. Of course a beginner doesn't necessarily need top quality, but what you need is a good set up by someone who knows mandolins. It would be best to purchase from a dealer who includes set up. The Mandolin Store, Elderly Instruments, and Folkmusician.com are three go-to businesses mentioned here a lot. All three have great instruments including professional set up.

Bluegrass players almost always want F holes, whether A or F style. The F holes help to give the more percussive attack to the notes that help them to be heard over the other instruments in the band. Other styles may use F holes but oval holes are great too, usually with more mellow and well balanced tone. Oval holes are associated with classical, old time, and Celtic styles. But if you choose oval hole you pretty much cut yourself out of traditional Bluegrass.

Playing before you buy is always good advice, but since you are a beginner it is difficult to know what you like. Eastman instruments are fine, but they have very small frets and narrow nuts. Guitar players who switch to mandolin may prefer the feel of bigger frets and wider nuts for the feel. You might many to check out the Kentucky or "the Loar" lines. A or F style? Endless arguments here, but F style instruments cost a lot more because of the additional work involved in making the scrolls and points, among other factors. But the extra money doesn't buy you better tone, it just gets you "the look". That being said, having an instrument that is aesthetically pleasing as well as good sounding is important to a great many people, or F styles would not sell as well as they do.

Hope all this is helpful! Good luck and keep us posted!

Welcome aboard Steve:

As a former Taylor player myself, I can relate to your desire for an instrument that plays well; (my old Taylor's played almost effortlessly).

You will get 10,000 pieces of advice with this question - so why not chime in with my experience and make it 10,001?

I promise to keep in brief . . . .

Basically, Eastman is a good name for quality 'beginner' mandolins under $1000, so they are definitely worth checking out. Kentucky is also another name that you often can't go wrong with from a quality-for-the-price perspective. I am sure that others will suggest other names as well.

Being a guitarist, I am sure that you are well aware that a good set-up is the key to playability in any instrument, and if you want a mandolin that is affordable and beautifully set up, you will probably find 'The Mandolin Store' as the first place you should consider visiting - they offer good prices and expert set-up with every purchase . . . I have yet to see a complaint about anything bought from them.

Again, good luck and welcome aboard.

Thanks for the replies folks.

Interesting stuff here. So then, counting bottom to top it's fourths but (semi-obviously) counting top to bottom it's fifths. I guess I knew that somewhere in my head. The thing I have to keep reminding myself of is that everything is reversed (is that the right terminology?)! Good to remember that! While I liked the sound and fingering of the Bouzouki, it was somewhat difficult for me to hold in my lap (I usually play seated). Being round and all -- it wants to slide off lol.

I'll have to remember to make a lighter touch when I play. On the Aria I have, my fingers don't really fit so well even if I make efforts to be absolutely perpendicular. I have large hands actually. So a wider fretboard would be a plus. As far as setups go, I do them myself generally speaking on guitar. Always have actually, but then I'm the kid who took the tubes out of the television to see inside how they worked. Years later in the Air Force, I learned tube theory properly, but I digress. Suffice it to say I don't mind digging in and figuring stuff out. However, I am at square zero for a mando, so when I get one and assuming it is set up properly, I will absolutely make copious notes so I can return it to that condition if needs be. I may be kidding myself there, but time will tell.

So overall, I am hearing that Eastman is OK at my level, but the frets are smaller. Also, Kentucky makes a decent enough mando and I have looked at those as well, but not knowing good from questionable, I didn't linger long. I will check out the Mandolin Store (is that is Arizona?) and Elderly (I have bought from them in the past) and see what's out there.

Oh, and I don't mind 10,00 answers -- at my stage of the game all the advice is welcomed. Thanks again!

[J Mangio]

If I were looking for a great player for under 1K, I'd start looking in the classifieds for
a Kentucky KM 900, or an F style KM 1000, great players at an affordable price.
All the best to you.

[Trav'linmando]

Hi Steve and welcome. As Multidon stated above the vendors he mentioned are all very reliable. I would suggest that you try out an Eastman first to see if you are comfortable with the neck. Personally I like the shape of the neck. It took a $700 mistake to realize that. I love the sound of my 404 oval and it's my favorite. You should look at the 504 unless you need a pick up , then the 604 would be my choice.
Larry

[multidon]

You mentioned a "workhorse". The classic workhorse that is also fine build quality is the Collings MT. A guitarist should already be familiar with Collings build quality. The MT is A style matte finish no frills. It goes for around 2700 but you can sometimes find used ones at around 2000 or even less. When they come up they don't last long. It is almost a no brainer purchase to get a used one because if you decide you don't like it it is usually an easy sell to get most or even all your money back out of it.

Another workhorse is the Weber Gallatin A style. These go for 1999 new but you can find used ones for 1500 or less. Great bang for the buck.

If you are not interested in Bluegrass a flat top is a great option. They have a different sound but very popular for old time and Celtic. They almost always have oval holes. Big Muddy makes a good one, and a new one is well under 1000. A used one is often under 600. Howard Morris makes an occasional flat top and you have to watch the Classifieds here for them to pop up, at around 600 new.

Personally, I don't believe the arguement you make that a high end mandolin is "lost" on a beginner. I advocate that beginners buy the best quality mandolin they can afford. You set under 1000 as an arbitrary goal, but there is no reason not to go up from that if you can afford it, just because you're a beginner. Life is short. Too short not to play nice stuff while we're here!

[F-2 Dave]

Used Collings MT. $1500-$1800. Professional level instrument, understated elegance in their A design. I've never heard one that didn't sound great. Oh, and welcome.

[Mark Wilson]

If your tastes in guitars is at the Taylor level for fit and finish, I would guess your target budget should be 1600 + for a lightly used A5 mandolin of similar quality. Double that more or less for an F5. A used Gibson F9 comes to mind for an quality F5 style mandolin. There is always the used deal for less maybe if you are patient.

Eastman and Kentucky are fine. I've played enough of them at factory expo booths to say they vary a bit in tone on same models and would recommend to a friend to pick those out in person for best results. imo

Buying a new A5 to suit Taylor tastes might start at the 2250 (Brown satin Pava) or little more for Collings MT. Some sponsor dealers here have generous new return policies - up to 30 days?

Satin Pava and Collings MT are 2 well known A5 mandolin builders that are mentioned a lot (I've had both and no regrets).

If you are adventurous and do your homework, small shop builders put out some awesome mandolins for a real value. Less of them out there, so waiting for used requires more patience. In my area Skip Kelley and James Bernabe are two that come to mind.

While you're shopping - get an idea of what kind of neck profile, nut width, and fretboard (flat vs radius) you might prefer. Only way to know for sure is to travel to where there are a few to touch and play.

Good luck and enjoy the ride!

[Randi Gormley]

Don mentioned this but it needs to be repeated. Proper mandolin technique is NOT to put your fingers perpendicular to the fretboard. that's guitar technique. Mandolin technique is pretty close to fiddle/violin technique. Hold the instrument up to your chin as if it were a fiddle and see what your hand does naturally. that is how you fret the mandolin. In that position, you can actually put all four fingers on the fretboard regardless of their size. Unlike guitar, it's two frets per finger. thumb position is different as well. Mike Marshall has a nice YouTube on mandolin hand position. It floats around here on the cafe every now and then so it shouldn't be hard to find on a search -- or someone'll post it for you. Same with setup. Rob Meldrum has a handy-dandy how-to for setup that he'll send you for free if you email him and put 'mandolin setup' in the subject line.

Speaking of the fretboard, some of the brands are known for either wider or narrower necks. Eastman usually has a narrower/modern neck and other brands (Collings?) have slightly wider ones. Same with neck profile -- some are more V and some more U. Just to add more confusion to the party!

There are a lot of us who prefer the A to the F, so don't apologize. We're always glad to welcome another brother to the fold, as it were.

Welcome to the cafe and the wild, wacky world of the mandolin!

[UsuallyPickin]

Welcome .... many folks here started out on guitar and moved to mandolin. One thing to keep in mind as you learn to play this instrument is that because there in no B string all shapes and forms all scales and arpeggios are moveable without changing other than where you start noting . Add closed position playing to that and it makes a mandolin much less trouble to navigate from key to key or mode to mode than a guitar. It also makes finding I IV V VIm easy. Enjoy... R/

[JeffD]

Welcome to mando-craziness. This community loves to help.

[Siberian Khatru]

Don mentioned this but it needs to be repeated. Proper mandolin technique is NOT to put your fingers perpendicular to the fretboard. that's guitar technique. Mandolin technique is pretty close to fiddle/violin technique. Hold the instrument up to your chin as if it were a fiddle and see what your hand does naturally. that is how you fret the mandolin. In that position, you can actually put all four fingers on the fretboard regardless of their size. Unlike guitar, it's two frets per finger. thumb position is different as well. Mike Marshall has a nice YouTube on mandolin hand position. It floats around here on the cafe every now and then so it shouldn't be hard to find on a search -- or someone'll post it for you. Same with setup. Rob Meldrum has a handy-dandy how-to for setup that he'll send you for free if you email him and put 'mandolin setup' in the subject line.

Speaking of the fretboard, some of the brands are known for either wider or narrower necks. Eastman usually has a narrower/modern neck and other brands (Collings?) have slightly wider ones. Same with neck profile -- some are more V and some more U. Just to add more confusion to the party!

There are a lot of us who prefer the A to the F, so don't apologize. We're always glad to welcome another brother to the fold, as it were.

Welcome to the cafe and the wild, wacky world of the mandolin!

I guess I missed that in his post, thanks for reiterating it. I'll check out that video if I can find it. Love to get more out of the mando I have than I am while I research/try new ones.

[Br1ck]

I've learned a lot here in the year or so since I took up the mandolin, and I'm also a guitarist.

First, don't think in terms of it being an upside down guitar. No good will come from this.

As a Martin owner, my ears were trained to expect a certain level of quality. This is both good and bad.

My first mandolin was an Eastman MD 505. This mandolin was great for getting me hooked on the instrument, but after two months I was wanting the tonal level of my guitars. This was apparent when I played Collings, Weber, and Pava mandolins, among many others, but the price became an issue. Buying used is the solution. Buy a used Eastman or equivalent and you will not loose much when you upgrade. I bought an Eastman second, and sold it for $50 less. But if you feel there is a good chance you will persue this long term, I'd go right to the used A style in the $1000-1500 range. Two or three come up in the classifieds every week.

I have played the Kentucky master built and they are very good, if you have to scroll. You will want to buy more and better mandolins. That's just how it is.

[HonketyHank]

You got some good steers above. I just chimed in to say "Welcome".

[itstooloudMike]

Hi Steve, and welcome. I am also a Taylor player, having both a 414kce and a T5z. I understand your desire to have a mandolin that plays smoothly, and sounds good. I had an Eastman 815 for quite a while, but it wasn't what I was really looking for. The small frets and flat fingerboard made it difficult for me to play with accuracy. And the tone was always thinner than I wanted to hear. I sold the Eastman, and found a used Weber Bitteroot-A. I actually like the A-style, and a more simplistic, earthy appearance. The Weber has a satin finish, and no neck/headstock binding. To me, it looks great. But the beauty is in the way it plays and sounds. Weber uses wider fret wire and a radius on the fingerboard. The playability is much better for me than the Eastman was. And the tone is rich and warm. Lots of low-end bark. A very "woody" tone. I absolutely love it. You can find nice used Weber A-styles for around $1500, and sometimes less. It's a professional level instrument, at a somewhat reasonable price. Buy used, and the price will stay pretty stable. When/if you decide to drop some serious coin on that expensive F-style, you will get most of your money back from the Weber A-style. It's a low "cost-of-ownership" way to get into a quality mandolin. And if your ears are accustomed to the tones from Taylor guitars, you will probably not be satisfied very long with a Pac-rim mando. I know I wasn't. Good luck.

[Frogstar]

One of the Breedlove mandolins might be a good fit for you, they typically have a wider nut. I have a Premier OO (A-style, oval hole) and I'm quite fond of it.

[Siberian Khatru]

Some in this thread have said "each finger covers two frets" - what exactly is meant by that?

[Eric F.]

You use each finger to play two frets - in first position index finger for first and second frets, middle for third and fourth, etc.

[Siberian Khatru]

You use each finger to play two frets - in first position index finger for first and second frets, middle for third and fourth, etc.

I'll have to let that soak in lol.. Thanks!

[Charlie Bernstein]

Hi, SK!

Like you, I'm pretty new here, a guit picker who's gotten interested in mandos only recently. Also like you, I like A-style mandos better - it's hard to understand what you get out of a fern besides getting to look like Bill Monroe.

I was ready for an upgrade, so I queried here and - also like you - got a ton of good advice.

I leaned toward F-holes because they say they project and cut through better. But ovals apparently have a mellower, more seductive sound, so I could have gone either way. I also decided against getting an old Gibson, but I must say, I saw a lot of 1910-to-1925 A-style Gibson ovals in the $850-to-$1,200 range that looked like fun.

What I wanted was a player, not a conversation piece, so I figured out (again, with advice from folks here) that a recent Weber Gallatin, a Redline, or an American-made Breedlove would sound good and be easy to play and not have any major issues.

Then I ruled out Breedloves just because I hate the headstock. Lame, I know, but I don't like how their guitars look, either. (Full disclosure: I mostly just like the looks and sound of Gibsons, Martins, Guilds, and Larrivees.)

Here's what I ended for $1,200:

https://reverb.com/item/1595967-redl...014-spruce-top

It's more mando than I need, which is what I wanted. And I'm sure you'll find your dream mando, too. Keep us posted!

[Eric F.]

You're welcome. As tempting as it is to look at it as an upside down little guitar, it really isn't.

On the subject of what mandolin you should purchase, I'll chime in and say you should consider one of Steve Smith's Redline Travelers.

I recently picked up a used one, and it is impressive. They are flattops (more accurately "induced arch"), and excellent for a variety of music. Most people would agree that flattops are not ideal for bluegrass (though that doesn't mean they can't be used for it under penalty of law), but they are versatile instruments and often the best bang for your buck under a grand, especially if you like the idea of a luthier-made instrument.

Anyway, you've gotten some excellent suggestions, and whatever you buy, I hope you enjoy it. Or, as one member here likes to say, "play the potatoes out of it." After which you'll want two or three more. Or seven.

[Mike Stewart]

The thing I have to keep reminding myself of is that everything is reversed (is that the right terminology?)!

Ugh, I would quit doing that right now. You won't learn the instrument that way, you'll learn an instrument relative to how it works on a guitar. Just don't do that. 45 year guitar player myself, a couple of years on mandolin, and not once has the knowledge of "it's the reverse of a guitar" been useful. Not a single scale, not one single chord has been gleaned from knowing "upside down guitar". Learn the mandolin on its own terms. Because the alternative is "okay, how is it done on a guitar? Okay, now reverse that..." all at 180bpm in a jam. Nope, that ain't gonna work, especially if your guitar knowledge is limited to begin with because now you've limited what you can learn on the mandolin.

Plus guitar knowledge, with that ####### minor third in there, will just mess up the easy-to-memorize mandolin. Learn a pattern or chord on mandolin, it can be played anywhere on the fretboard. Easy peasy. Not so with guitar.

[Charlie Bernstein]

. . . Personally, I don't believe the arguement you make that a high end mandolin is "lost" on a beginner. I advocate that beginners buy the best quality mandolin they can afford. You set under 1000 as an arbitrary goal, but there is no reason not to go up from that if you can afford it, just because you're a beginner. Life is short. Too short not to play nice stuff while we're here!

Yup. After one plywood mando (bad) and one flattop (okay but limiting), I stretched for a carved top, solid body, and radiused fret board. I'm not a hot picker yet, but having an instrument that doesn't fight you is the best way to get there, if you can swing it. (And it sounds like you can.)

[LadysSolo]

I agree with those who have said that you will not be happy with a lower-end mandolin. I am a musician, who decided to try the mandolin, and bought a lower-end mandolin to see if I would like it. Well, I still have it but was only satisfied with it for about 6 months before I "bit the bullet" and bought a Pava and a Weber. They are of quality to satisfy all of my forseeable future mandolin needs and wants. Don't sell yourself short! And welcome!