Don't look at your fingers!

[CES]

Now that is another field of neural crosswiring I have yet to understand. I can talk while doing chords, but any kind of melody immediately falls apart at my mere attempt to say more than "hup". I have seen musicians tell jokes and complicated stories out of sync with the music and never miss a note and I still don't believe it

Agree totally...ticks me off when I see people who can do that. Also, people who can play lead instrument lines while singing a slightly different melody. Saw a band once (can't recall now who it was), and the guitar and bass player carried on complete conversations (like, for a minute at a time) while flawlessly playing their respective parts. Wish I'd started playing much earlier in life, as reshuffling neurons is a slow process, indeed, except for the younglings

[Ivan Kelsall]

From CES - "..and the guitar and bass player carried on complete conversations (like, for a minute at a time)..". Why would they need to do that ?. I've seen musicians do that on stage & IMHO,it's downright rude !. I've also seen musicians on stage turn their backs to the audience while playing - why ?,
Ivan

[Bertram Henze]

I've also seen musicians on stage turn their backs to the audience while playing - why ?

There may be a reason...

[foldedpath]

There may be a reason...

Eeek! Abba alert!

Didn't Robert Johnson famously turn his back on his audience sometimes? I've heard it described as being either shyness, or trying to hide what his fingers were doing, so none of the other local guitar players could copy what he was doing. Of course you have to be really good, to use that excuse! And he was.

[farmerjones]

My last instrument learned was piano. Conventional training has students reading music and of course not looking at one's hands. But I learned pop piano (chords), so I sometimes look at my hands. The better I know the tunes, the less it happens. Looking back to my string experience, I never beat myself up about looking at my hands or the strings. But because I'm so ear based, I find myself gazing forward or down listening. If there's something to look at like an audience or other players, I look at them. But as I said, the less I think about it the better. It's like thinking about it is worse than the action. (only in Music )

[Kerrydan]

I'm a veeeery new mandolin learner (like, several weeks), and teaching myself.

Are there any tactile markers/tricks that you experienced players use to identify where your left hand fingers are on the strings without looking at them (I find I can't feel the fret until I am already pushing down on the string)? Or is it really just a matter of "practicing until you know the positioning by heart"?

[Stevo75]

I'm a veeeery new mandolin learner (like, several weeks), and teaching myself.

Are there any tactile markers/tricks that you experienced players use to identify where your left hand fingers are on the strings without looking at them (I find I can't feel the fret until I am already pushing down on the string)? Or is it really just a matter of "practicing until you know the positioning by heart"?

If you're new, I'd say look at your fingers. I bet some would disagree but I think you have to at first (at least I did). I liken it to typing on a keyboard. I had to look at first. Otherwise, how would I know what key I was hitting. After several years, one day I realized I didn't have to look. Now I never look at the keyboard when typing.

I'm just now getting to that point on the mandolin (after many years). I don't have to look when I'm in first position, but if I'm shifting up the neck I still need to look to make sure I'm getting the right fret. If I try shifting without looking, sometimes it works and sometimes I'll miss by a fret, which sounds terrible.

[Vincent Capostagno]

If you're gifted with sight, you'll have to look at something. Glancing at the left hand can tell you how cleanly you're fretting and guide major shifts. Glancing at the right can tell you how much pick is exposed and whether it has rotated. Looking at the score can text you if your melody line is in sync with the accompaniment. Looking at the audience can tell you if anyone is still listening. Plenty for those little peepers to do.

[mandolin breeze]

Interesting topic. I think I benefit by both, but in different ways. It's like the visual and hearing sides of the brain act differently and promote the learning of music in different ways. When stopping to think about this, I believe that watching the fingers periodically is enhancing the skills I've acquired by not watching and vice-versa. Kinda hard to verbalize. My personal sense is that playing without watching is the most important and beneficial. The ability to quickly and consistently move up and down on the fretboard and land on the correct fret every time is mostly learned by not watching your hands and learning to slide your arm the correct amount naturally. Probably the most productive learning and advancement strategy might be a structured element of both.

[sbhikes]

I'm a veeeery new mandolin learner (like, several weeks), and teaching myself.

Are there any tactile markers/tricks that you experienced players use to identify where your left hand fingers are on the strings without looking at them (I find I can't feel the fret until I am already pushing down on the string)? Or is it really just a matter of "practicing until you know the positioning by heart"?

You might try something like this. Once you know a tune that is played on either the top three strings or the bottom three strings, and you have it memorized, try playing it on the next three strings. Shift the whole tune over by one string and play exactly the same. You'll get the tune now in another key. The frets are all in the same place and your fingers are moving to the same places, doing exactly the same movements, just on a different set of strings. It might throw you off a little that it sounds different, but once you can play it, you'll see your fingers already know what to do. That's when I think you can start to realize you don't really need to look at them to know where they should go.

[bratsche]

I liken it to typing on a keyboard. I had to look at first. Otherwise, how would I know what key I was hitting. After several years, one day I realized I didn't have to look. Now I never look at the keyboard when typing..

Haha, I may not look at my fingers while playing, but I can't type without looking at them, and it's been decades... I simply cannot memorize the keyboard layout, much as I try. Hence I'm the world's worst and slowest typist. Huge mental block there, probably my biggest ever. If I have to shut down the computer in a power outage, I have to grab a flashlight just so I can see what I'm doing to type my way out...

bratsche

[Stevo75]

It's the darnedest thing. I couldn't tell you where a letter is on the keyboard if you asked me to tell you, but if you say "type an A" I can do it without thinking about it. I've worked on a computer all day for my job since 2000 or so when I graduated. So I guess that helps.

[fredfrank]

I prefer to look at my fingers over looking at the audience. I saw a video of Jethro Burns once where he never looked at his fingers. Needless to say, I was impressed.

[Ivan Kelsall]

Going back to the late 1960's when i had my band together,we were the resident band at a well known local Folk Club. Our singer had decided on a new strategy - he'd pick out a nice young lady in the audience & sing to her,hoping to come across more 'sincerely' than merely singing the words. He did so one night,but unfortunately the message didn't get across too well,his chosen young lady gave him the finger !!. We all just fell apart laughing,as did the audience !. It was one heck of a job to play straight faced after that for weeks to come.

Looking at the audience can be a tad hazardous at times,
Ivan

[Mark Miller]

It's not mandolin, but I've seen videos of Clarence White flatpicking in which he never took his eyes off his right hand.

[Bertram Henze]

Looking at the audience can be a tad hazardous at times

I remember an open-air gig where a former band member was in the audience - a girl we had kicked out of the band only a week ago. I'd never noticed how interesting the upper-storey windows on the other side of the street can be...

[Mark Miller]

I've always looked at my hands. But just the last couple of days, trying to play Sally Goodin' up to dance tempo and tensing up my right hand and arm and shoulder and neck and back, I stopped looking, closed my eyes, and concentrated on relaxing. Started playing way better. Looked again to see how I was doing and tensed up and it all fell apart. I like this not looking business now.

[sblock]

"Don't look back. Something might be gaining on you." Satchel Paige

[zedmando]

I find a lot of the time that I am looking at my fingers it isn't because I need to--but my eyes have to look at something, so I look at my fingers.--So sometimes there is a conscious effort required to not do it.

[JonZ]

My understanding is that we learn more effectively when we use muliple modes, so more parts of our brain get engaged in the task. So I would think it would be good to look and not look, and to sometimes just see and hear what you are trying to achieve in your mind.

If you use a language program like Memrise or Duolingo, it seems like that is what they are trying to accomplish: sometimes you hear a word in Spanish, sometimes you read it, sometimes you type your answer, sometimes you select an answer. Then you reverse it English to Spanish. The same information gets processed in a lot of different ways.

[Il Mandoliere]

I too look at my fingers for most of the time as I am now in my second year of self teaching. But once I get used to the tune the muscle memory (I hope that's the proper term) sets in and I can play without looking. Works pretty fine with Flop Eared Mule. Totally different thing with Buffulo Hornpipes... Hornpipes Buffulo? Just started to learn the song and I have to look at my fingers all the time.

I am watching a Puscifer gig on youtube right now and the guitarist looks at his fingers for the most time despite being in his late 40s at least and cleary being an experienced musician. Even Adam Jones from Tool does it from time to time. I guess it depends what you as a musician are most comfortable with. No dos and don'ts.

[GrooverMcTube]

I think that if you sing while you play, it is imperative to be able to play without looking at your fingers.

If you are singing into a microphone while you are playing, you can glance down at your fingers to orient yourself.

But if you look down at your fingers while you are singing into a microphone, you will no longer be singing into the microphone.

[Jess L.]

... My problem is what happens when I just do look at my fingers? Often, it leads to some confusion. ...

Same here.

If I watch my fingers it throws off my concentration, or maybe it *makes* me concentrate (instead of just zoning out & playing) which is sufficient distraction to interfere with my ability to make the tune sound its best.

Although, oddly, if I glance up at the camcorder screen while I'm recording something, that does *not* seem to be distracting. Don't know why, maybe it's in the same category as watching another musician while I'm playing, that doesn't distract me either.

[sblock]

It strikes me that having to look at your fingers constantly while playing might be considered a handicap, but it is equally true that if looking at your fingers throws off your concentration while playing, then that too is a handicap! The best players tend not to be thrown off by visual stimuli. Perhaps this comes from playing on stage a lot? They can, and do, look at their hands briefly from time to time, particularly in certain passages (e.g., when changing hand positions), but can also look away, and do not require visual feedback at all times. I suspect that some of the folks posting to this thread may be taking too extreme of a position on this topic (pro or con looking). Be fluid; be flexible. Everything is in service of the music. If looking helps, fine. If it distracts, fine. The music comes first.

[Jess L.]

... if looking at your fingers throws off your concentration while playing, then that too is a handicap! ...

In a way, yeah, but mostly for me it's similar to if someone asks me how I play something. I'm like, "umm I dunno, good question, lemme see here," so I try to play it slower so I can figure out what I'm doing... *but* the very process of cold hard analytically thinking about what I'm playing, gets in the way of the more fluid emotional/musical processes that resulted in that version of the music in the first place.

When I have to consciously think about every little thing, every note, every hammer, everything little variation, it changes (for the worse). Yes of course I can still play the basic tune, but it stops the flow of inspiration for variations & other subtle stuff like that, my focus then is no longer on making the best sound, but rather on the technicalities of *how* those sounds are created. Two different things.

Similarly, if I watch my fingers, that activates my wannabe-quasi-nerd analytical mode where the mind is trying to determine "how did I just do that?!" especially on tunes where I do different variations each time through, heck I have no clue what I'm doing, I "just do it".

Obviously I'm just a player & not a teacher.

Maybe it's the right brain vs left brain thing or something.

Presumably could be overcome with sufficient motivation & usage (or "practice", same thing, as in how a doctor *practices* medicine).

For me, I've seen no compelling reason to train myself to watch my fingers, so it has not been a priority.

Incidentally, in typing class (way back when we had real typewriters, and *not* electric ones either), we were *forbidden* to watch our hands, and forbidden from watching the typed output too. Most of us students did quite well with that, after we all got over our initial objections.

All that said, back to mandolin... yeah I suppose for those who play up the neck (usually not me), a quick glance at the fretboard when changing positions to go up the neck, sure that would be helpful, I see no harm in that.

Also, I think when first starting out with mandolin, look at the hands as much as you need to, I would probably *not* think it necessary to prohibit it like in the aforementioned typing class. But as one's playing & musical confidence progresses, the visual stuff becomes less & less important/useful.

P.S. While I can't do much talking while I'm playing, it's no problem at all to *listen* to what other people are saying, or even listen to them *and* watch the tv in the corner *while* reading the tv's closed-captions. I can also read a book or newspaper while playing, that's easy. I haven't had a performance interrupted by a streaker (yet) though, doubt it'd phase me, I'd probably just laugh & keep on pickin'. But watching my own fingers, that's a lot more difficult.