Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast
Results 1 to 25 of 63

Thread: In Defense of F-Styles

  1. #1
    ===========
    Join Date
    Feb 2017
    Location
    Connecticut
    Posts
    1,628

    Default In Defense of F-Styles

    I am going to use a generalized Q&A here - so please don't be too overly-critical of the exact wording, and take the post simply for its intended overall idea . . .

    For many years (I was a former member of this forum from the late 90's to the mid-2000's), I have read nearly countless posts that go something like this:


    Q: I am a beginner and want to get a decent F-style mandolin to learn on. I have $XXX to spend. Can anybody give me some recommendations?

    A: For $XXX you can buy a much better quality A-style mandolin. Why do you want an F-style? Because they are better looking? All you are really doing is paying extra money for the scroll.


    Here is my answer:

    Yes, I do like the aesthetic quality of F-style mandolins. I may be crazy, but I feel more inspired to play my mandolin (or any other instrument) when it is not only an instrument that plays and sounds good (even if only to my ears), but is also a pleasure to look at. I like to open my mandolin case and see an instrument that is just as much fun to look at, as it is to play . . . kind of like preferring to drive a nice-looking sports car, as opposed to a plaid one with Barney the Dinosaur decals all over it - the same car still handles well and moves quickly, but wouldn't you generally prefer the 'better looking' one?

    Also, from a non-aesthetic perspective - I find F-style mandolins to be a better physical 'fit' for me. After 20 years of playing guitar and electric bass, I became very comfortable with feeling the 'shoulders' of my instruments resting against my chest when I play. When I play an A-style mandolin that extra body size (scroll) is missing, and therefore the mandolin feels much less 'balanced', and I feel less comfortable playing it.

    Needless to say, I am not an F-style snob (more of my mandolins have been A-style than F-style), but given a choice, I do prefer an 'F'.

  2. The Following 8 Users Say Thank You to MikeZito For This Useful Post:


  3. #2
    Gibson F5L Gibson A5L
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Posts
    2,526
    Blog Entries
    1

    Default Re: In Defense of F-Styles

    Well .... people like what they like. Be it candy bars or vehicles. F's are cool in looks and sound as good as they sound. A's are equally pretty in shape and material profiles. I own both, I play both. Yes there is a boatload of hand work involved in making a Florentine shaped mandolin that isn't present in it's A model cousins. And a workman or manufacturers time is money. So an A shaped purchase will get you more mandolin for less money than an F purchase. Do they sound any different.... yes / no / sometimes.... as no two sound exactly alike it is a moot point to me. A player buys the best one they can afford and is sometimes satisfied with that. I will probably stick with my current group. Tone , playability, build quality, wear, looks in that order ... R/
    I love hanging out with mandolin nerds . . . . . Thanks peeps ...

  4. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to UsuallyPickin For This Useful Post:


  5. #3
    Guest
    Join Date
    Sep 2015
    Location
    Redmond, WA
    Posts
    187
    Blog Entries
    1

    Default Re: In Defense of F-Styles

    That's all well and good, but the fact remains that you'll get more value for one's currency unit with A style. I've got two F styles, so I'm no hater, but when the n00b asks, "I've got $500 to spend..." A style is the correct answer. Should the question be "I've got $2K or $5K to spend...", the better value is still the A style (as an example, there's something like a $2K difference between top-of-the-line Pava As vs. Fs). However, in the latter case, there's a little more monetary breathing room to still get a great instrument in those price ranges. But at, say, the $500 level? $1000? No way, you're paying money for a scroll that could have been used to make the top a little thinner, finish a little less glopped on, a little more attention to detail.

    If one has to have the scroll, do it knowing that one could have a better instrument for the same money without the scroll. And in the case of my Pava F, I know I spent a bunch more money than I needed to in order to get that fancy curly wood piece. But, like you, I like the looks and I like the ergonomics. So no one needs to "defend" the F style, they'll be fine as long as there are knuckleheads like me with more money than sense. One should, however, be fully informed of what they're giving up and what they're gaining before laying down the hard-earned.

  6. The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to Mike Stewart For This Useful Post:


  7. #4
    Lurkist dhergert's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2012
    Location
    Blue Zone, California
    Posts
    1,867
    Blog Entries
    1

    Default Re: In Defense of F-Styles

    I've got 2 F-styles and a bowl-back (which I affectionately call a tater-bug). My tater-bug is good sounding, but flat-out hard to hold, especially in my older, less athletic physical form where my belly wants the same space as the bowl-back wants. Honestly, after playing a bowl-back, either an F or an A style would be a joy to hold and to play.

    One of the F-styles that I have was my effort to find a backup/travel mandolin. I was intending to get an A-style but a rare $199 deal came up about 6 months ago that I couldn't overlook, so my backup/travel mandolin is actually a pretty decent F-style. For the most part the statement that you can get a better A-style for the money is true, but deals do come up and if you're at the right place at the right time you may come up with as good or better F-style mandolin for the money.

    I would say though, that in deciding between an F-style or an A-style, a more important investment for any < $2K mandolin (and even some > $2K mandolins) is a good setup.
    -- Don

    "Music: A minor auditory irritation occasionally characterized as pleasant."
    "It is a lot more fun to make music than it is to argue about it."


    2002 Gibson F-9
    2016 MK LFSTB
    1975 Suzuki taterbug (plus many other noisemakers)
    [About how I tune my mandolins]
    [Our recent arrival]

  8. #5
    Registered User red7flag's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    Dickson, TN
    Posts
    3,292

    Default Re: In Defense of F-Styles

    I love both and am glad I have both. I have one F style with F holes and the Ellis is a island by itself. By design, my other instruments were reaching for a different tonal sound. Both of my others are short (well one fret longer with the Collings) neck ovals. The Collings is elevated. The Hester F4 is a masterful recreation of the Gibson 20s F4 with short neck and attached to the top. The F4 has the scroll, but none of the F5s mojo. It has its own mojo and is a gentle sounding sweet voiced mando best suited for duets and Celtic music. All this being said, the F5 and F4 need no defense as they stand on their own, but in different territories. A models provide more bang for the buck, no doubt. But, the F5 and F4 is not just an A5 and A4 with points and scrolls, despite statements to the contrary. They play, feel, and sound different, in my opinion. I love my A's too, but there again, I never desired an A5 so mine are quite different.
    Tony Huber
    1930 Martin Style C #14783
    2011 Mowry GOM
    2013 Hester F4 #31
    2014 Ellis F5 #322
    2017 Nyberg Mandola #172

  9. #6
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Location
    Va
    Posts
    2,573

    Default Re: In Defense of F-Styles

    Mikezito if you or anyone with a tight budget that is your choice, but the fact remains you will get less mandolin than an A if tone and playability is important. That is why we recommend an A. You used the car example, let's take it one step farther. Say you have $5000 to spend on a car. That will buy a pretty reliable "plain Jane" sedan but if you find a Corvette for that it will be junk, maybe it's " style" will be sexier but do you want to look at it or have reliable transportation. Now if you have $$100,000 to spend go for the 'vette. That's the same thing we are saying about the mandolins, if you have $175,000 to spend buy a Loar and enjoy it, but don't tell me you have $500 and want the best mandolin you can get within that budget and expect me to recommend any F. If you say you must have a F ( I don't know why) I'll give my opinion on budget priced F's but I would feel I was doing you a disservice if I didn't tell you that you would get a much better mandolin in that price range in an A style

  10. The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to Mandoplumb For This Useful Post:


  11. #7
    Registered User Bob Buckingham's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Greer, SC
    Posts
    898

    Default Re: In Defense of F-Styles

    I have a 2 point, an A and an Eastman 315 for an F. It came into the shop with the scroll broken and I was able to procure it for a significant discount. I put an Allen tailpiece on it, medium frets like on a Martin guitar and a very nice set of Grover tuning machines. It is a killer mandolin for what I have in it. I have an A playing friend who hates it because it is an Eastman. He plays a Heiden that is worth more than my pickup truck. It is fine by me and it sounds and plays great.
    Last edited by Bob Buckingham; Apr-17-2017 at 7:13pm. Reason: Typos

  12. #8
    Registered User Al Trujillo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2015
    Location
    Southern Colorado
    Posts
    694

    Default Re: In Defense of F-Styles

    When I bought my first mandolin (Feb. 2015) is too was completely smitten with F-style mandolins. But after reading countless threads about A vs. F, I concluded that beautiful sound should trump esthetic beauty. My Weber A cost $1,000 less than a comparable Weber F. Would I liked to have bought the F - you bet! With two years under my belt I'm now glad that I didn't buy the F because my tastes have changed and even if I had bought an F, I would still be wishing I had spent more time looking at two-points.

  13. #9
    Innocent Bystander JeffD's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    Upstate New York
    Posts
    24,807
    Blog Entries
    56

    Default Re: In Defense of F-Styles

    MikeZito you have a clear preference, based on experience and having thought it through. I would never ever try and talk you out of it.

    The times I have brought it up are when I suspect (sometimes mistakenly I suppose) that the newbie original poster doesn't realize there is a choice, or the consequences to the price.

    Same thing happens when a newbie says they want help deciding between an F and an A style, and I wonder why the person has excluded flat tops. if the person consciously decided on an arch top, A or F, based on the music they want to play that is great. But it might also be they are not aware of flat tops as a viable and often less expensive choice.

    If I have brought it up inappropriately I do apologize. If I discern that the decision is based on an informed preference I generally don't bring it up because everyone can and should get what they want.

    The motivation is to help folks make a more informed decision, not to force my tastes on anyone, and if it comes across that way I apologize.
    A talent for trivializin' the momentous and complicatin' the obvious.

    The entire staff
    funny....

  14. #10
    Registered User fscotte's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    Zanesville, Ohio
    Posts
    2,490

    Default Re: In Defense of F-Styles

    I didn't know F styles needed any defending.

  15. The Following 5 Users Say Thank You to fscotte For This Useful Post:


  16. #11

    Default Re: In Defense of F-Styles

    Some people like one style, others like a different style. Many like them both. Quelle surprise.

  17. The following members say thank you to Ron McMillan for this post:


  18. #12

    Default Re: In Defense of F-Styles

    The captivating, engrossing, absorbing, enchanting, enthralling, spellbinding, riveting, engaging, compelling, compulsive, gripping, thrilling, alluring, tempting, irresistible, charming, attractive, intriguing, diverting, entertaining and inexplicable scroll ... some cats got it and some cats ain't.

  19. The following members say thank you to billkilpatrick for this post:


  20. #13

    Default Re: In Defense of F-Styles

    If the defense rests, then here is another witness for the prosecution. It is also exhibit A on the evidence list, and a (hard on the) eye witness.

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	amoon.JPG 
Views:	149 
Size:	57.0 KB 
ID:	156155

    And in a 'letters-to-Santa-into-the-courtroom-as-evidence' style parade, check out exhibits B through ???

    https://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/s...e-last-century


  21. #14
    Registered User Charlie Bernstein's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2015
    Location
    Augusta, Maine, USA
    Posts
    1,814

    Default Re: In Defense of F-Styles

    They both sound good.

    F-style scrolls and points are the landau roofs of the string world. They're not about comfort or performance. The reason to pay the eye-candy-tax is that you like the look.

    Nothing wrong with that!

  22. #15

    Default Re: In Defense of F-Styles

    Quote Originally Posted by Franc Homier Lieu View Post
    If the defense rests, then here is another witness for the prosecution. It is also exhibit A on the evidence list, and a (hard on the) eye witness.

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	amoon.JPG 
Views:	149 
Size:	57.0 KB 
ID:	156155

    And in a 'letters-to-Santa-into-the-courtroom-as-evidence' style parade, check out exhibits B through ???

    https://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/s...e-last-century

    Correction: Some cats don't quite have it ... In fact, some cats are extremely wide of the mark, actually.

  23. #16
    Mando accumulator allenhopkins's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    Rochester NY 14610
    Posts
    17,378

    Default Re: In Defense of F-Styles

    If one wants to pay more for acoustically-irrelevant features, one should go ahead and do so.

    Esthetics are, by their very nature, individual; what I love, you may hate, and vice versa.

    However, if the question is acoustic value for the money, A-models have the edge. That doesn't need to be one's only consideration, but it often is for those buying their first mandolin. Hence the frequent response Mike Z mentions.

    I say, "Buy whatever you want, but be clear as to what you're paying for."
    Allen Hopkins
    Gibsn: '54 F5 3pt F2 A-N Custm K1 m'cello
    Natl Triolian Dobro mando
    Victoria b-back Merrill alumnm b-back
    H-O mandolinetto
    Stradolin Vega banjolin
    Sobell'dola Washburn b-back'dola
    Eastmn: 615'dola 805 m'cello
    Flatiron 3K OM

  24. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to allenhopkins For This Useful Post:


  25. #17
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    Gainesville, FL
    Posts
    2,664

    Default Re: In Defense of F-Styles

    I agree with Allen. Get what you want. We only go around once.

  26. The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to Denny Gies For This Useful Post:


  27. #18
    Innocent Bystander JeffD's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    Upstate New York
    Posts
    24,807
    Blog Entries
    56

    Default Re: In Defense of F-Styles

    Quote Originally Posted by allenhopkins View Post
    I say, "Buy whatever you want, but be clear as to what you're paying for."
    I would only add that knowing what you are paying for requires a knowledge of the options.
    A talent for trivializin' the momentous and complicatin' the obvious.

    The entire staff
    funny....

  28. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to JeffD For This Useful Post:


  29. #19
    Registered User CWRoyds's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2014
    Location
    San Rafael, Ca
    Posts
    700

    Default Re: In Defense of F-Styles

    I far prefer the look of an F-style, but the main reason I prefer them is the point at the back.
    I absolutely hate playing round instruments.
    You have to work to keep them upright, and the point on an F is crucial for me.
    I would buy a great A-style, IF it had an added point at the back for sitting on my leg.

    To be fully honest, I just am crazy about the F look.
    I love the scroll.
    It is elegant and amazing.
    I will gladly pay more and not feel bad about it.

    Having said all that, if someone has less than $500 to spend, I might suggest an A.
    A crappy F isn't inspiring to play.
    An A with a better tone is probably the way to go.
    Luckily, I found a J Bovier F5 Special on craigslist for $500, so I was stoked.
    Mandolins: Northfield 5-Bar Artist Model "Old Dog", J Bovier F5 Special, Gibson A-00 (1940)
    Fiddles: 1920s Strad copy, 1930s Strad copy, Liu Xi T20, Liu Xi T19+ Dark.
    Guitars: Taylor 514c (1995), Gibson Southern Jumbo (1940s), Gibson L-48 (1940s), Les Paul Custom (1978), Fender Strat (Black/RWFB) (1984), Fender Strat (Candy Apple Red/MFB) (1985).
    Sitars: Hiren Roy KP (1980s), Naskar (1970s), Naskar (1960s).
    Misc: 8 Course Lute (L.K.Brown)

  30. The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to CWRoyds For This Useful Post:


  31. #20
    ===========
    Join Date
    Feb 2017
    Location
    Connecticut
    Posts
    1,628

    Default Re: In Defense of F-Styles

    I'm with CW - as I was playing this morning, I realized that I forgot to mention the 'point' at the bottom of the mandolin . . . it helps the mandolin to stay in position on my lap - as opposed to an A-style which has a tendency to slip on the rounded body.

  32. The following members say thank you to MikeZito for this post:


  33. #21
    Innocent Bystander JeffD's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    Upstate New York
    Posts
    24,807
    Blog Entries
    56

    Default Re: In Defense of F-Styles

    Quote Originally Posted by CWRoyds View Post
    I far prefer the look of an F-style, but the main reason I prefer them is the point at the back.
    I absolutely hate playing round instruments.
    You have to work to keep them upright, and the point on an F is crucial for me.
    I would buy a great A-style, IF it had an added point at the back for sitting on my leg.
    .

    I use this stuff all the time now. I started in order to keep my bowlback from moving when I played (sitting down) and now I use it for everything.

    With this, nothing moves.

    I am not suggesting one should not get a F style, I am just suggesting that preferring the look is all the justification one needs.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Click image for larger version. 

Name:	placeitfan.jpg 
Views:	106 
Size:	175.5 KB 
ID:	156167  
    A talent for trivializin' the momentous and complicatin' the obvious.

    The entire staff
    funny....

  34. The following members say thank you to JeffD for this post:


  35. #22

    Default Re: In Defense of F-Styles

    Quote Originally Posted by CWRoyds View Post
    ... Luckily, I found a J Bovier F5 Special on craigslist for $500, so I was stoked.
    Lucky indeed - Beautiful looking instrument. I especially like the absence of the florida extension. Makes for neater, cleaner, less fussy design.

    Dog's nice too ...

  36. #23
    Registered User fscotte's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    Zanesville, Ohio
    Posts
    2,490

    Default Re: In Defense of F-Styles

    And no one has improved on the perfect design... That's what is extraordinary to me. You change anything, even subtly, and you degrade the aesthetics. If F style mandos were found in Heaven, God wouldn't change a thing.

  37. The following members say thank you to fscotte for this post:


  38. #24

    Default Re: In Defense of F-Styles

    Regardless of logic, most players that love the look of the F, end up with one. They may buy the A, but they will not be satisfied for long and an F comes shortly after. Often times the F, is not really an upgrade in quality. Something similar to the original A will be purchased.

    I see this a lot with my customers.
    Robert Fear
    http://www.folkmusician.com

    "Education is when you read the fine print; experience is what you get when you don't.
    " - Pete Seeger

  39. #25
    Registered User Randi Gormley's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Connecticut, USA
    Posts
    3,379

    Default Re: In Defense of F-Styles

    Perhaps the disconnect that bothers Mike is that a lot of people aren't answering the question the poster asks. 'I have $10 and want a red shirt, should I get it with or without sleeves?' should not be answered with 'why not blue?' In the case of identical options, then it's just a matter of choice and whatever someone's choice is is what their choice is.

    However, at a low price point -- and most beginners are more fixed on the price than they are on, say, tone, there really is a difference. Will the esthetics of an F mandolin that retails at $250 overcome the negatives? Will having a pretty but unplayable instrument encourage a beginner to pick up that instrument instead of admiring it in its case? So more advanced players answer the implied question -- what's the best playing/sounding bargain can I get with my hard-earned cash?

    It isn't really about denying the look of the F. The esthetics of the F appeal to a lot of people and, more importantly, the F is played by a lot of people that newcomers to the instrument want to emulate. It may be that the question is posed by people who just want to look like their star -- not play like them. But, I dunno. As a musician, I'd rather have the better instrument. When someone asks for the best F for the money, I occasionally suggest they look at the used instruments. Did they ask about used vs new? no. But it's another option. Do I risk sounding like a parent admonishing a child to ignore their instincts and do something sensible? probably. Anybody with kids generally answers the implied question instead of the obvious one. it's just one of those things.
    --------------------------------
    1920 Lyon & Healy bowlback
    1923 Gibson A-1 snakehead
    1952 Strad-o-lin
    1983 Giannini ABSM1 bandolim
    2009 Giannini GBSM3 bandolim
    2011 Eastman MD305

  40. The following members say thank you to Randi Gormley for this post:


Bookmarks

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •