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Thread: shuffle pattern help request

  1. #1
    Registered User hdismal's Avatar
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    Default shuffle pattern help request

    Hello,
    Would appreciate any clue as to which of the fiddle shuffle patterns Byron Berline is playing here (beginning at 00:44 to about 00:58) as well as were one might look to find guidance on how to reproduce that grove on a mandolin. Thank you kindly. fare well, h

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YxSXUJpyYms

  2. #2

    Default Re: shuffle pattern help request

    I haven't a clue how Byron Berline does it but I understand he's a heck of a mandolin player as well. Thanks for posting that youtube although I wish the focus was more on the musicians than the cloggers.

    Len B.
    Clearwater, FL

  3. #3
    Registered User Jordan Ramsey's Avatar
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    Default Re: shuffle pattern help request

    The pattern is the Hokum Bow, most famously used in the tune Orange Blossom Special. Reproduce it at a basic level on the mandolin by playing three-note groupings across two strings:

    D D A - D D A - D D A - D D A - D D A

    Use alternating pick direction the whole time.... First group of three is down, up, down... second group is up, down, up... third group is down, up, down, etc...
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    Registered User T.D.Nydn's Avatar
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    Default Re: shuffle pattern help request

    Double stopping with this technique on the mandolin can sound incredibly cool,,but I find it can get quite fatiguing,,

  6. #5

    Default Re: shuffle pattern help request

    Quote Originally Posted by T.D.Nydn View Post
    Double stopping with this technique on the mandolin can sound incredibly cool,,but I find it can get quite fatiguing,,
    I guess you have to know your limits and construct your solos accordingly, 4 measure or 8 measures then you switch back to something less fatiguing, kinda like with tremolo. I'm gonna have to study up on this double shuffle technique 'cause I can't do it.

    Len B.
    Clearwater, FL

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    Registered User T.D.Nydn's Avatar
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    Default Re: shuffle pattern help request

    Heres a huge tip..go to youtube and type : "hokum bowing basic:fiddle lesson", the one by fiddlevideo,,and then on Google type in "sheet music to orange blossum special' for the double stop notation,,,,after that,,just put the two together and work on it..it's fun....

  8. #7
    Registered User sblock's Avatar
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    Default Re: shuffle pattern help request

    Quote Originally Posted by Jordan Ramsey View Post
    The pattern is the Hokum Bow, most famously used in the tune Orange Blossom Special. Reproduce it at a basic level on the mandolin by playing three-note groupings across two strings:

    D D A - D D A - D D A - D D A - D D A

    Use alternating pick direction the whole time.... First group of three is down, up, down... second group is up, down, up... third group is down, up, down, etc...

    Yup, this is the famous "Hokum Bow", also known as the "Double Shuffle." It was famously introduced to folk playing by none other than the great jazz violinist Joe Venuti, and made popular in its use in tunes like "Orange Blossom Special", as well as "Back Up and Push" and several others. Jordan's description is just a bit incomplete, though. Yes, it consists of 5 repetitions of the three-note groupings he showed, alternately picked (DUDUD...). But that only gives you 15 notes, and you need SIXTEEN notes to complete two measures (taking two measures is the reason why it's known as a "double" shuffle)! You return to pick the original bass string for that final (and 16th) note, as follows (using the D- and A-strings, in this example):

    DDA-DDA-DDA-DDA-DDA-D
    DDA-DDA-DDA-DDA-DDA-D
    DDA-DDA-DDA-DDA-DDA-D... etc.

    picked as follows
    DUD-UDU-DUD-UDU-DUD-U

    Note these things:

    1) The musical emphasis changes for each successive 3-note group, since this is played in 2/4 time, and so the strong beat falls every 4th eighth note, that is, on the 1st, 5th, 9th, and 13th notes of this 16-note series. So you have to syncopate them as follows (boldface means emphasized as stronger):

    DDA-DDA-DDA-DDA-DDA-D
    DDA-DDA-DDA-DDA-DDA-D...

    So if you group the eighth notes by rhythm (in 4's), not string patterns (in 3's), you get this:

    DDAD-DADD-ADDA-DDAD
    DDAD-DADD-ADDA-DDAD...

    Playing this pattern smoothly at speed takes quite some practice to get down right, since you are, in a sense, beating (string) groups of 3 against (rhythm) groups of 4! But that's what gives this shuffle it's amazing "shuffle" feel! Notice also that all the strong beats are downstrokes.

    2) Note that each double measure (that is, one complete double shuffle) ends up on the original string (the D-string, in this example), and it also starts on the same string. So you play the original, lower string three times in a row as you repeat the shuffle. But since it's 16 notes, you start with a downstroke and wind up on an upstroke, so you're still in phase on the alternate picking when you go back to start another shuffle. Strict alternate picking throughout!

    Have fun.
    Last edited by sblock; Apr-06-2017 at 4:38pm.

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  10. #8
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    Default Re: shuffle pattern help request

    That is amazingly cool.

  11. #9
    Registered User hdismal's Avatar
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    Default Re: shuffle pattern help request

    Hello,
    Thank you kindly one and all for the info on this technique. I have (of course) heard OBS many times, but the Berline clip somehow sounds a bit different to my untrained ear. Might there be a modulation he (Mr Berline) applies that makes it different from the Orange Blossom Special standard rendition(as part of the double stops rather than the rhythm)?

    Is there a chance anyone would be willing to point in the direction of a vid that shows someone applying this rhythm technique on the mandolin (as opposed to fiddle)? Have watched several hokum bowing videos on youtube, but somehow since I can not as of yet play it up to speed, my brain is having trouble recognizing what exactly it is that will be my eventual goal sound-wise.

    Thank you once again. Fare well, h

  12. #10
    Registered User sblock's Avatar
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    Default Re: shuffle pattern help request

    Quote Originally Posted by hdismal View Post
    Hello,
    Thank you kindly one and all for the info on this technique. I have (of course) heard OBS many times, but the Berline clip somehow sounds a bit different to my untrained ear. Might there be a modulation he (Mr Berline) applies that makes it different from the Orange Blossom Special standard rendition(as part of the double stops rather than the rhythm)?

    Is there a chance anyone would be willing to point in the direction of a vid that shows someone applying this rhythm technique on the mandolin (as opposed to fiddle)? Have watched several hokum bowing videos on youtube, but somehow since I can not as of yet play it up to speed, my brain is having trouble recognizing what exactly it is that will be my eventual goal sound-wise.

    Thank you once again. Fare well, h
    No "modulation." But OBS is in the key of E, and Ragtime Annie is in D. I think you may be confused, here. Byron is not playing the melody of OBS -- he is using the double shuffle, a.k.a. hokum bow, pattern made famous by OBS. This is a rhythm/right hand (bowing) technique, not a melody! He is playing this pattern over different double stops, and over a different melody, and in a different key, than that of OBS.

    I think you need to practice a lot more until you get this up to some reasonable speed, so you can start to think about the different melodies and/or doublestops that it can work with. As of right now, you're just not quite ready for it -- as you point out yourself.

    I am not aware of any hokum bow-for-mandolin videos, but there are plenty of fiddle tutorials online with great videos, slowed down, and you can easily learn from these. I know that I did!

    Also, be aware that not everything that sounds great on fiddle will sound equally great on mando. For OBS, for example, simply duplicating the fiddle part (i..e, playing alternating doublestops with a common middle string) sounds a bit "off" on the mando. A better substitute, which some mandolinists adopt, is to cross pick these doublestops with a forward roll instead of using the picking pattern for hokum bow, described earlier. YMMV.

    Experiment!

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  14. #11

    Default Re: shuffle pattern help request

    I just up/down 'alternate' picking accenting a triple feel on that - same shuffle as I do on the fiddle - kind of a 3 against 2 thing .. which is one of the plum funnest things to do on fiddle, and why fiddle rags are so addicting

  15. #12

    Default Re: shuffle pattern help request

    Quote Originally Posted by hdismal View Post
    Hello,
    Would appreciate any clue as to which of the fiddle shuffle patterns Byron Berline is playing here (beginning at 00:44 to about 00:58) as well as were one might look to find guidance on how to reproduce that grove on a mandolin. Thank you kindly. fare well, h

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YxSXUJpyYms
    ...the only kind of "shuffle" that Byron is doing in Ragtime Annie is what is commonly called the 'double shuffle' !...the very same shuffle all fiddlers do in Orange Blossom Special !

  16. #13

    Default Re: shuffle pattern help request

    Quote Originally Posted by lenf12 View Post
    I haven't a clue how Byron Berline does it but I understand he's a heck of a mandolin player as well. Thanks for posting that youtube although I wish the focus was more on the musicians than the cloggers.

    Len B.
    Clearwater, FL
    ....Mandolin players need not be concerned about doing a "double shuffle" on the mandolin, because it is difficult enough to learn and master the 'single' shuffle, by that I mean the art of playing a melody using up and down strokes alternately during the course of a tune .

  17. #14
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    Default Re: shuffle pattern help request

    Well …. a bow is not a pick ….. the double shuffle can be done crosspicking either DUD UDU DU or DDU DDU DU either will take a bit of time in the wood shed. Use open strings at first then add double stop scales and keep in mind the groups of eight. Mike Marshal has and omnibus of both right and left hand work. R/
    https://www.elderly.com/catalog/product/view/id/93976 if you want a treatise on mandolin techniques. R/
    I love hanging out with mandolin nerds . . . . . Thanks peeps ...

  18. #15

    Default Re: shuffle pattern help request

    Quote Originally Posted by UsuallyPickin View Post
    Well …. a bow is not a pick …..
    But...the rhythmic groove - the feel of D/U, back/forth, etc - is essentially the same. Looking over the thread this year, I see that sblock has elucidated the technical details nicely..

    As usual, the key is rhythm (timing, syncopation). This, the essential element, can be learned - and perhaps most effectively learned - on a single muted string or the side of your pant leg while driving to work in the morning.. Ergo, comparison or analogy with fiddle technique.

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