Makers getting Top Dollar

[JeffD]

Dead people make very few mandolins, it turns out.

[Mike Floorstand]

I didn't see my name on the list - I charge $60K for my entry level model.

A non-refundable 50% deposit secures a place on my 40-year waiting list.

[sprucetop1]

I can't give mine away......

[Clinton Johnson]

I can't give mine away......

I feel your pain brother! Lol

[banjoboy]

I feel like a broken record...but....I'd put Gail Hester's mandolins up against anything on the list. She just doesn't charge as much as the other builders, but I'm sure it's just a matter of time. She doesn't produce a ton of mandolins each year, and at present, I'm not aware of any famous mando players who use her mandolins, although I know Adam Tanner (not that he's not famous) has one of her instruments. But I'm sure if you talk with Adam Steffey, David Grisman, or Jesse Brock, they would give Gail's instruments high marks. I also would put Stan Miller's name on the list as well. You don't hear much about Stan, but he builds great instruments and continues to fly under the radar.

[dschonbrun]

As an outsider (from being able to afford this price group) I'd observe that there are a lot of important names that are "on the bubble", plus there are questions about actual price verification with some of the names that are actually on the list...

As such, would it be worth it to add another category that would include the names that are say, over $7.5K but under $10K?

Or, is there magic to the $10K number? (I know you have to set somewhere to start.)

Hey Don, the 10K was an arbitrary starting point. I'm not stuck on it by any means. If it's helpful to add a group of great makers on the bubble... say 7K-11K, I can certainly do that.

David

[dhergert]

I'd hate to change the course of this thread if no one else feels that way... Clearly $10K has meaning to you and to the majority of people suggesting builders' names; even if $10K is arbitrary, it is a good starting point. Let's see if anyone else feels a change would help.

Btw, even though I am not in this market, it is threads like this one that provide extremely valuable education. Thank you!

[nkforster]

These threads are always interesting. The positions folk take often come to who does, and who does not understand "supply and demand" along with "what the market will support." It's these two factors which dictate what work sells for if it sells. This price may or may not be indicitive of quality. A good example is Sobell - generally considered "the best" of the "Celtic mandolin" makers. But the market currently isn't large enough to support a $10,000 price tag. Were more folk interested in buying them, the price would rise. Supply and demand.

Nigel
www.theluthierblog.com

[fscotte]

Let us digress just for a minute. Forget names, brands, etc.. What if you found a mando that was stellar in sound, the best tone you've ever heard, angels sang when you struck a note, the devil weeped, and God wrote a lullaby in your honor... The workmanship top notch, miters came together in supreme perfection, deep quilted maple so 3D that you reached up to take off your 3D glasses that aren't there, a neck as smooth as oil on glass, the most beautiful looking and sounding mandolin as you had ever seen or played. The only thing, the peghead said something boring from a maker you've never heard of.

Would you pay $20,000 for it? No. Because we don't pay that premium for sound and looks, regardless how much people pretend to say that tone is their #1 priority, it isn't. People want the name on the peghead and all the history behind it. They want the inherent value of something they know will hold its value. When these builders are done building, there will be no more. Sounding and looking good is just a bonus.

[Mandobar]

Absolutely, fscotte. I have played some pretty pricey mandolins that left me flat. We sometimes get wrapped up in "drinking the koolaid", and forget what it's all about, playing and making music.

[Ivan Kelsall]

From fscotte - "........... the most beautiful looking and sounding mandolin as you had ever seen or played.". If i found exactly that,i wouldn't give a hoot regarding who's name was on the headstock & if i had the cash for it,i'd buy it.

I fully understand that folk 'want the name' on the headstock,but lots of folk buy instruments built by makers who haven't yet made their name - Lynn Dudenbostel / Steve Gilchrist / Michael Heiden & Tom Ellis didn't ''start off famous'',they got that way because their instruments are stellar !. I can almost imagine the scenario you paint, regarding the first guy to buy a Gilchrist - ''Steve who ? '' . Many years later & we ALL know ''Steve who'' !!!,
Ivan

[Jim Garber]

And here's a short list of maker's that are deceased, but continue to bring high prices. Again, happy to get input here from others.

Lloyd Loar Signed Gibson F5 - $75,000 - 200,000
D'Angelico - $20,000 - 35,000
D'Aquisto - $15,000 - 25,000
John Zeidler (Carrara) - $18,000 - 25,000

Cool list! The mention of D'Angelico makes me wonder what the market might have been had the bluegrassers embraced the D'Angelico mandolins.........

I have played quite a few D'Angelico mandolins tho I have never seen one priced at $35k. There was a time a few years ago when Mandolin Brothers had 4 or 5 of them and I played them all including the 12-string that Andy Statman demoed on a video. Frankly I don't think D'Angelico was up to the level on his mandolins that he was respected for his guitars and I think the prices reflect that.

[Mandoplumb]

Buying the great one of a kind mandolin by unknown mandolin for $20000 wouldn't happen for the most part because " when I sold I couldn't get anywhere close to that". We have been programed to think of value not as what I want or like but what can I sell it for. I am a retired plumber and I don't know of the times someone has told me they have to have a whirlpool tub, not be cause they use it, but becuase you can't sell a house on this price range with out it. Think about it, they have to have it knowing they won't use it so they can sell it to someone that won't use it. That's the American way! To get back to the original post, I've never seen a mandolin I would give $20000 dollars for, it can't be 10 times better than my Dearstone, but if I did see one that was and could possibly swing the cash I would buy it no matter what the name because if it's that good I'm not worried about what it would bring 'cause I ain't gonna sell it.

[Jeff Mando]

The question was asked, basically, where do they come up with these prices/price ranges? I don't know if it applies to mandolins, but 15 or so years ago the electric guitar market was flooded with boutique makers who basically came out of nowhere and started running full-page color ads in the guitar magazines. I think full-page color ads would put most small builders out of business, so they must have had money behind them, from somewhere. They all were similar in appearance, basically looking like a PRS on steroids, super flamey tops, wooden binding, wild colors, and selling the idea of hand craftsmanship. And prices that were higher than PRS, Gibson, and Fender. They were playing upon the same market that PRS focused on, new guitars that appealed to vintage buyers (who had a lot of disposable income). Nothing wrong with making a new product and trying to market it, mind you. I was working at a vintage guitar shop at the time, and while I would see these ads and say, "huh?" and turn the page, customers would ask me, "Hey Jeff, have you ever played a so and so?" So, advertising works, as they say. A lot of customers love the idea they can pick up the phone and talk directly to the maker who will build a guitar just for them, to their specs, from start to finish.

Anyway, I find this an interesting parallel. Now, obviously, these makers did not "come out of nowhere" as it takes years to learn the craft. My point is how do you justify boutique prices with no track record or past sales to speak of? Unless you just take a leap of faith, as a builder, and say "I can't work for less!" Then, there is the question of resale, should the buyer decide to unload it......

[nkforster]

Dead people make very few mandolins, it turns out.

Yet they have been known to make a remarkable number of Cremonese violins. The late Leo Fender and his dead workers have made a fair amount of mid 50's instruments since his death. Once the market becomes valuable enough the dead will also start making mandolins too. Who knows, Loar may have already made a couple!

Nigel

www.theluthierblog.com

[Jeff Mando]

I say if dead people can still vote, they can still make mandolins!

[Spruce]

Yet they have been known to make a remarkable number of Cremonese violins. The late Leo Fender and his dead workers have made a fair amount of mid 50's instruments since his death. Once the market becomes valuable enough the dead will also start making mandolins too. Who knows, Loar may have already made a couple!

I'm actually quite surprised that copyists haven't targeted certain modern makers who are commanding top dollar.
Their work is a whole lot easier to successfully replicate than say, a Loar...

[Jeff Mando]

I'm actually quite surprised that copyists haven't targeted certain modern makers who are commanding top dollar.
Their work is a whole lot easier to successfully replicate than say, a Loar...

But couldn't a "copy" be verified with a simple phone call or email to the modern maker, if he or she was still alive?

[Mandolin Cafe]

For many of us, a top level mandolin is something we spend years or even a lifetime saving and yearning for. Here's a short list of the global individual luthiers, producing in small quantities, who are currently getting 10K or more for their new top level mandolins and who have established themselves as producing instruments of consistently high quality. Please feel free to add any that I may have missed.

John Monteleone - $45,000
Mike Kemnitzer (Nugget) - $25,000 - 30,000
Steve Gilchrist - $22,000 - 25,000
Lynn Dudenbostel - $22,000 - 25,000
Don Macrostie (Red Diamond) - $15,000 - 20,000
Hans Brentrup (just stopped mfg.) - $15,000 - 20,000
Michael Heiden - $17,000 - 20,000
Tom Ellis - $12,000 - 14,000
Bill Collings (MF5V Custom) - $11,000 - 13,000
Corrado Giacomel J5 - $12,500
Jonathan McLanahan - $11,000 - 14,000

And here's a short list of maker's that are deceased, but continue to bring high prices. Again, happy to get input here from others.

Lloyd Loar Signed Gibson F5 - $75,000 - 200,000
D'Angelico - $20,000 - 35,000
D'Aquisto - $15,000 - 25,000
John Zeidler (Carrara) - $18,000 - 25,000

Happy Picking,
D

Small problem. Unless you were the actual buyer or seller and you're telling the truth, this is all guesswork. The rest is hearsay. Some of the pricing here is fuzzy. Some wildly inaccurate. But it does reduce the building community to a bunch of numbers. I think they deserve better.

Asking and receiving are apples and oranges. If someone pays one wildly high or low price, is that their market price now? How do we know it's accurate? If builder John Doe puts on his web site he sold one for $40K does he rise near the top?

Problems with this:

I know for a fact an instrument from a well known current builder was sold and the buyer and seller agreed on a public price they leaked to benefit the builder. Problem: the real selling price was $10,000 below the real price, but it's still bantered about as fact to this day. Thank you. Yes, I did see the check. It was a long time ago.

That John Monteleone asks $45K for a new mandolin is pretty much widely known as the price a luthier sets when he no longer wants to build one--unless someone is really willing to pay that much. Power to him if he does, but John Monteleone is no longer someone that needs to build mandolins for a living. He's a well known and respected guitar builder that could build a mandolin if he desired.

About ten years ago I was selling a bunch of stuff on April Fool's day on the Classifieds and before I hit send I posted my #159 Nugget Deluxe as for sale for $40K and then wrote SOLD after it as a joke. I drove to Kansas City about 45 minutes away, came home about 8 hours later and had 100+ emails. Many congratulating me, some cursing me and using words I can't post here, but all believers. Mike Kemnitzer said he spent the entire day in a duck blind hunting and thinking I was a real ####. We had a good laugh about it later.

Not sure what's being accomplished here but I've given my two cents and will now slink away and keep my mouth closed. Maybe.

[Mandolin Cafe]

Yea, that didn't last long.

Here's one that's not listed, and built by people still alive (not confirmed) vs. the early 1920s Gibsons. Gibson's 120th Anniversary Mandolin. Only $20K apiece, though they still list on their web site as you can get all three for $60K. There's some real marketing genius. Also listed for sale at Guitar Center, Musician's Friend and amazon (free shipping). Oh and also available from Woodwind & Brasswind (in stock they say)

But wait, here's a new one for just over $10K on Reverb they say is brand new. From Reverb's definition of Brand New: These would be products that are in the box as received from the manufacturer which come with the original warranty. Only authorized dealers are permitted to sell an item as Brand New.

[HoGo]

Small problem. Unless you were the actual buyer or seller and you're telling the truth, this is all guesswork. The rest is hearsay. Some of the pricing here is fuzzy. Some wildly inaccurate. But it does reduce the building community to a bunch of numbers. I think they deserve better.

Asking and receiving are apples and oranges. If someone pays one wildly high or low price, is that their market price now? How do we know it's accurate? If builder John Doe puts on his web site he sold one for $40K does he rise near the top?

Excellent point Scott.
I've been around MC and internet for two decades and as aspiring builder I've watched regularly virtually all mandolin builder pages around world (I still have thousands of pictures downloaded from their sites) and also good portion of violin makers and later guitar makers. Of course I knew pricing of most of them and saw many of the rises in pricing. Only after many years I realized that in many cases there was noticeable pressure on the public image by various folks (very likely not very independent from the maker - you can call it marketing) that they are so and so good and you should buy before the prices will go even higher etc. I had suspition that some of the sales on public pages were fake just to show up and justify the higher asking price.
That's why I tend to divide makers according to their history. Paying hefty price to newcomer just because the instruments is nice or sounds nice or some known player used one on his latest show is risky, the bubble may burst and inflated pricing will drop back down. For that price if I look elsewhere I can get great instrument from time proven reputable builder and will have ALL bases covered.
Now I can add ane more builder to the 10k+ category... Brunkalla just came to mind... Weird pricing IMO. Mandolin for 15k while violin goes for 5k.

[JeffD]

but if I did see one that was and could possibly swing the cash I would buy it no matter what the name because if it's that good I'm not worried about what it would bring 'cause I ain't gonna sell it.

Yes.

[JeffD]

Let us digress just for a minute. Forget names, brands, etc.. What if you found a mando that was stellar in sound, the best tone you've ever heard, angels sang when you struck a note, the devil weeped, and God wrote a lullaby in your honor... The workmanship top notch, miters came together in supreme perfection, deep quilted maple so 3D that you reached up to take off your 3D glasses that aren't there, a neck as smooth as oil on glass, the most beautiful looking and sounding mandolin as you had ever seen or played. The only thing, the peghead said something boring from a maker you've never heard of.

Would you pay $20,000 for it?

Or whatever top dollar means to you. $20,000 is an amount I could not justify for a mandolin. But I get what you are saying, and it is a very interesting question.

No. Because we don't pay that premium for sound and looks, regardless how much people pretend to say that tone is their #1 priority, it isn't. People want the name on the peghead and all the history behind it. They want the inherent value of something they know will hold its value.

I am not sure. I think it often boils down to not trusting your own judgment and making what others think matter.

I think if you can pretty much play an instrument and see and feel that it is great with enough confidence that the opinions of others are of no concern, and you can afford it, you would go for it. But that confidence only comes with a ton of experience.

Also there is the cognitive dissonance - how could a mandolin this extraordinary be made by a someone I have never heard of? Not that I have heard of everyone, but a mandolin this good should have captured the attention of the mandolin world. So my trepidations might be along the "what's the catch" line of thinking.

[Spruce]

Gawd, I'd love to take a hacksaw to that Florida...

[pops1]

Gawd, I'd love to take a hacksaw to that Florida...

A black magic marker would do nicely.