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Thread: The Loar LM-310F

  1. #26

    Default Re: The Loar LM-310F

    Quote Originally Posted by Br1ck View Post
    How does the sound compare to a KM150, which would be a reasonable next tier up instrument? I found out with my MK just how nice a cheaper mandolin can be after a fret leveling.

    I must admit to liking a scroll. LOL.
    the lm-310f, as like most pac rim 'f' models, had less output and was less resonant than the pair of km-150a's that were in my shop at the time. i don't take this at all as a bad, or unwanted thing. i would still prefer that 'f' over that 'a' - personal subjectivity once again in control, as expected. in that one lm-310f i had, it was easy to setup for excellent playability and with good strings the tone was quite pleasing and even across the board, and could only get better over time.
    Mandolins are truly *magic*!

  2. #27

    Default Re: The Loar LM-310F

    Quote Originally Posted by rfd View Post
    the amount of "tone/sound" one hears from a mando or guitar's back and sides is minimal if at all.
    Does that mean everyone can throw out their Tone-Gards? $75 seems like a lot to pay or something, if the item's effect on the tone/sound is minimal if at all.

  3. #28

    Default Re: The Loar LM-310F

    well, maybe. there are a number of dependencies to consider. lotta really good players hug their fully carved mandos and don't feel the need for a tone-guard thingy. they can hold it out a bit and at an angle, and better hear what's being projected forward. try doing that, then hug it and let the sound waves bounce off a solid wall a foot away and compare the tone and resonance. for me, it's the top that does the real talking. that's the voice, the vocal cords, while the back and sides are chiefly their for support. do the back and sides sing? how much does the back really contribute to the overall tone? is it more of a sound reflector where shape is as, if not more, important than the material? i don't see many string instruments with tone bars on the backs. but again, many dependencies happening there, as well as defining that subjective "tone" word. but hey, bill, ain't all this stuff fun?
    Mandolins are truly *magic*!

  4. #29

    Default Re: The Loar LM-310F

    Quote Originally Posted by Billkwando View Post
    Does that mean everyone can throw out their Tone-Gards? $75 seems like a lot to pay or something, if the item's effect on the tone/sound is minimal if at all.
    I've used a my Tone-Gard on both laminate and solid carved-backed mandolins and it's made a huge positive volume improvement for each so I will have to dispute the original claim that the back doesn't have an effect, even with nothing more than personal experience. However, a very many Cafe forum threads, including one very recently, also show that most of those who swear by one think the effect is far from merely 'minimal' regardless the instrument on which it is used.

    C.
    Northfield F5S Amber #347 - 'Squeeze'
    Mann EM-5 Hollow Body - Gimme Moore
    Kentucky KM-270 - Not just for whisky
    Flatiron 1N Pancake - Not just for breakfast
    Epiphone Mandobird IV - Djangly
    Cozart 8-string e-mando - El Ch(e)apo
    Lanikai LB6-S Banjolele (tuned GDAE) - Plinky and the Brane

  5. #30
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    Default Re: The Loar LM-310F

    Granted, I play cheap mandolins, and I am not a good player . . . but I actually prefer the sound of my mandolins when I hold them close, as opposed to moving them away from my body, like a tone guard would do.

    Go figure . . . .

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    rfd 

  7. #31

    Default Re: The Loar LM-310F

    precisely, mike. there is no right or wrong. pay attention only to what appears best for us, and ignore opinions. that may change, too. it's all good.
    Mandolins are truly *magic*!

  8. #32

    Default Re: The Loar LM-310F

    I'm still working on the "viola shoulder rest as tone-gard" concept, but I don't think I'm gonna use it very much (maybe just for recording?). Honestly, my 310 is too flippin' loud!

    It's fine for playing by itself, but I sat down to try and play along with a couple 10,000 Maniacs mandolin songs (Back O' the Moon & Everyone a Puzzle Lover) and I had to turn the CD volume up so ridiculously high to be able to hear it over "The Loud" 310 (and that's with the back up against my body) that I started to think, "Do I really want to make this thing EVEN LOUDER?"

    Keep in mind, I'm playing with a regular medium (bendy) guitar pick. I can't imagine how much louder it would be with one of those super thick $50 "magical mandolin picks" people seem to use.

    Plus, as I suggested in a previous thread, I'm sure someone here would say that it's not doing the tone any favors to give the (ostensibly?) laminated back of the 310 a louder voice.

  9. #33

    Default Re: The Loar LM-310F

    in order to "make good music", the sum total of all mandolin (and most other instruments as well) required gear = 10% at best, whereas the person doing the deed, which includes their brain and fingers = 99.9%, regardless of the gear used. IOW, playing trumps all the chatter about gear. period.
    Mandolins are truly *magic*!

  10. #34

    Default Re: The Loar LM-310F

    Quote Originally Posted by rfd View Post
    in order to "make good music", the sum total of all mandolin (and most other instruments as well) required gear = 10% at best, whereas the person doing the deed, which includes their brain and fingers = 99.9%, regardless of the gear used. IOW, playing trumps all the chatter about gear. period.
    I've often thought that Chris Thile could use an off the rack mandolin, or even a The Loar, and the average listener (or maybe even most listeners) wouldn't be able to tell that it isn't his skazillion dollar Gibson.

    As guitarists often like to say, "tone is in the fingers".

    Still, getting back to the topic at hand, I'm impressed by how insanely loud this LM-310 is.

    I still haven't fixed the tiny gap under the bridge foot yet, and I'm wondering if it will actually make any perceptible difference to the sound.

    I forget....what's that supposed to do/fix again? Does it provide more sustain? Volume? Mojo?

  11. #35
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    Default Re: The Loar LM-310F

    Quote Originally Posted by Billkwando View Post
    I still haven't fixed the tiny gap under the bridge foot yet, and I'm wondering if it will actually make any perceptible difference to the sound.

    I forget....what's that supposed to do/fix again? Does it provide more sustain? Volume? Mojo?
    Properly fixing the foot to the top will help the tone and the volume - but if it is a 'tiny' gap, the difference may not be very preceptable.

  12. #36

    Default Re: The Loar LM-310F

    Quote Originally Posted by rfd View Post
    in order to "make good music", the sum total of all mandolin (and most other instruments as well) required gear = 10% at best, whereas the person doing the deed, which includes their brain and fingers = 99.9%, regardless of the gear used. IOW, playing trumps all the chatter about gear. period.
    Couldn't agree more. But when I upgraded from a Loar 600 to a Weber Bitteroot something happened the Wife immediately told me how much better the Weber sounded She was amazed at the difference. Something happened to my tone and it had nothing to do with my skill, when I took the Weber to a jam the 4 guys who were real familiar with my meager playing on the Loar told me the Weber sounds way better than the Loar. Awhile back are drummer bought a very expensive kit and He sounds better than ever. I'm not a big gear guy thinking that my sound will improve with better more expensive gear but IMO there is a big difference in sound from a $300 dollar ax compared to a $4000 ax at least for intermediate players I know a top notch mando player could squeeze a fantastic sound out of 300 buck ax but that will never be most us.
    Lou

  13. #37

    Default Re: The Loar LM-310F

    fwiw, over the last 6 decades of messing with fretted instruments, i can attest to seeing and hearing first hand where sometimes an "ok" acoustic player will clearly sound at least somewhat better with a far more expensive instrument that simply has an important acoustic ingredient - lively resonance. again, this doesn't happen with every player who plays the "upgrade game", but sometimes magic of sorts do seem to occur. hands down, the truly mastercraft players can take that cheap asian whatever and just mesmerize you with both their playing and the resulting instruments tone. it's all about the brain guided fingers. save yer money ... unless you want to gamble on an instant upgrade from that big dollar custom box.
    Mandolins are truly *magic*!

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  15. #38

    Default Re: The Loar LM-310F

    Quote Originally Posted by Loubrava View Post
    I'm not a big gear guy thinking that my sound will improve with better more expensive gear but IMO there is a big difference in sound from a $300 dollar ax compared to a $4000 ax at least for intermediate players I know a top notch mando player could squeeze a fantastic sound out of 300 buck ax but that will never be most us.
    Lou
    When your wife heard it, did she already know that you paid the price of a used car for it??

  16. #39

    Default Re: The Loar LM-310F

    I went back to the Guitar Center where I got my LM-310 today to see if they had Primetone picks, just to try out something closer in line to what the "real" mandolin players are using. I currently use Dunlop USA Nylon .73mm guitar picks (the gray ones), which are plenty bendy, but I have no complaints. My mandolin, as I've already mentioned, is already crazy loud....and I don't have any pick noise (that I've noticed) like I hear other folks talking about.

    They only had the standard shape "grippy" picks, and only in sizes 1.0mm and below, so I bought a 3-pack of the 1.0mm and headed into the acoustic room to check it out, since I had recently seen that they had restocked the LM-310 (since I had bought their floor model, being the only one in the store).

    Man....the setup on that thing was a horror show. I've mentioned (maybe in my other thread) how amazing my 310 plays, and had posited the theory that perhaps it was setup already, with the intention of it being the display model (either by The Loar factory, or by someone at GC). The action is super duper low, with no buzzes. I could probably put a coin under the strings and it would stay (I tried it with a sub-1mm pick and that didn't fly). I could see at least 5 or 6 turns of thread under the bridge, whereas on my 310 you can barely see 1 or 2....it's cranked almost all the way down.

    I also noticed that the bridge had a weird forward lean to it, toward the fingerboard. I popped the G string out (uh-oh!) to see if maybe the bridge was reversed, but it had a nice thick slot, so that wasn't the case (I suppose the base of the bridge could've still been on backwards though).

    Soooo, instead of trying out the Primetone pick, I spent most of what little was left of my lunch break cranking the bridge down to where mine is (and trying to quickly re-tune it), in hopes that the next person who comes along might have the same magical experience I had, instead of going "Ewwww!" and putting it back on the rack, forgotten.

    Moral of the story is: Try before you buy, or be ready to get it set up (or to lower the bridge yourself), but don't be discouraged if you pick one up and the strings are super high. They don't have to be.

    Also, it's possible that I just picked one that was on the other extreme, setup wise, or maybe it shipped on a Friday (lazy employees) or someone messed with it in the store ( more unlikely) ....or it could've even been a return that somebody messed with while they had it at home.

    It's also another reminder that, as with the guitar, a large part of what we think of as the "quality" of the instrument has to do with how the finishing touches were applied, and whether it's properly set up. You could (unknowingly) pick up and play a Fender Custom Shop guitar in the store, and if the action is really high, you could easily dismiss it as a crappy guitar.

    I'm curious what other folks that have gotten The Loar mandos have experienced with the default setup, to see where on the spectrum they typically fall. I really have to take a pic my 310, from the side, because I'm curious if my action is as low as I think it is, or if that's more the norm for the mandolin.

    All I know is, it plays like a dream.

    Edit: I just realized you can get a pretty good look at the action in this video, around 7:23 to 7:30. Forgive the fact that I thought the scroll was called a florentine. I'd since asked around about whether I was calling it the right thing, and was kindly corrected (nobody yelled at me for being wrong, haha):

    Last edited by Billkwando; Jun-15-2017 at 2:27pm.

  17. #40

    Default Re: The Loar LM-310F

    it's almost a sure bet that ALL production line mandos (and guitars, banjos, elec basses, etc) will require some manner of "set up", either because the instrument is *that* off, or simply to suit yer personal preferences. total rank newbies to fretting instruments have no yardstick as to what good playability is all about, and that's a disadvantage that could lead to an instrument deal breaker, which is why music emporium vendors, brick face and online, need to at least offer education to their consumers.

    buying ANY acoustic instrument without first playing that instrument will be a krap shoot - more so true with any production line offering.

    as to plectrums/picks, it's about mass density, shape/size, thickness and surface finish. to know all there is to know about a pick, *you* gotta use it otherwise, yup, there goes another krap shoot, and maybe dollars down the drain.

    it's fine to listen to opinions of others, but for the most part, popular opinion is also just another form of krap shoot. feelin' lucky?
    Mandolins are truly *magic*!

  18. #41

    Default Re: The Loar LM-310F

    Quote Originally Posted by Billkwando View Post
    ...

    I also noticed that the bridge had a weird forward lean to it, toward the fingerboard...

    Also, it's possible that I just picked one that was on the other extreme, setup wise, or maybe it shipped on a Friday (lazy employees) or someone messed with it in the store ( more unlikely) ....or it could've even been a return that somebody messed with while they had it at home.

    ...

    I'm curious what other folks that have gotten The Loar mandos have experienced with the default setup, to see where on the spectrum they typically fall...
    There are literally hundreds of pages on this website dealing with the universal need for mandolins to require a setup after manufacture and the fact that big box and/or online stores (as opposed to individual luthiers or specialized dealers) do no setup at all before they ship you the box. All of the things you describe and more are very common and the reason Rob Meldrum's setup book is so popular.

    There are nearly as many discussions over the last few years regarding The Loar brand and it's known deficiencies, which has resulted in two opposed love 'em/hate 'em groups. The general consensus of both groups is that very often the brand is nearly unplayable out of the box and that the extent of that unplayability varies widely. Both sides also agree the name is annoying, but one thinks they are great-value instruments totally worth the effort to get them playable and the other that they are eye-candy junk better left on the rack while saving for something else. Opinions yes, but (mostly) backed by a wealth of experience.

    I spent many months lurking this site researching before I bought a The Loar LM-500 from an online site as an upgrade to the Epiphone MM50 I had been playing so I knew what I was getting into. The first one arrived with a broken end pin so I don't recall what else was wrong with it but I got pretty lucky with the second. The big three things with a new mando that are usually 'wrong' are the nut, frets, and bridge. The nut on mine was nearly perfect and I never messed with it. The frets were level but needed some cleanup on the edges but overall were fine. The bridge was a complete mess. String placement and spacing were very poor and it needed to be fitted to the top something fierce. I eventually found a very small crack in the foot when tweaking the fit, which gave me the excuse I was looking for to replace it with a Cumberland Acoustic bridge. The sound difference from that one component alone was jaw dropping.

    String height is always a preference but I could never get either bridge on The Loar as low as the Epi (to this day the easiest playing mandolin I've owned) without it shutting down the volume/tone. Super-low action is not always optimal and I now prefer my Northfield's 'modern' setup with higher strings (both NF and the dealer I bought it from do a pro setup prior to sale so I had to do nothing), although it's taken some considerable time for my fingers to be able to handle it.

    From the number of personal experiences I read about the The Loar brand before, during, and since I've owned it, more than likely there was some amount of setup of your LM-310 by GC or perhaps what flaws do exist are minimal enough for you to overlook during the honeymoon phase. The most important thing is that you enjoy it and it makes you want to play. The time for accessories, upgrades, etc will come later.

    As for picks, there are a couple of samplers with dozens upon dozen of picks to try out going around. Everyone who has run the gauntlet of trying them all can no longer say that a pick is a pick is a pick. Each and every one is different from the rest.

    C.
    Northfield F5S Amber #347 - 'Squeeze'
    Mann EM-5 Hollow Body - Gimme Moore
    Kentucky KM-270 - Not just for whisky
    Flatiron 1N Pancake - Not just for breakfast
    Epiphone Mandobird IV - Djangly
    Cozart 8-string e-mando - El Ch(e)apo
    Lanikai LB6-S Banjolele (tuned GDAE) - Plinky and the Brane

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  20. #42

    Default Re: The Loar LM-310F

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris Daniels View Post
    From the number of personal experiences I read about the The Loar brand before, during, and since I've owned it, more than likely there was some amount of setup of your LM-310 by GC or perhaps what flaws do exist are minimal enough for you to overlook during the honeymoon phase. The most important thing is that you enjoy it and it makes you want to play. The time for accessories, upgrades, etc will come later.

    Right. Now that I've looked at my 310 again, I realize that the lean I was seeing in the bridge just seemed more pronounced because it was cranked up so insanely high, coupled with the arch of the top, creating a "leaning tower" effect to my eye. It may even be that a previous customer lowered the bridge, as I did on the sad 310 they had on display today.

    The nut, the frets, and bridge on mine are all sweet, with the exception of the small bridge foot gap I mentioned previously. I own six guitars, so I know all about frets and nuts! The action at the first fret is amazing, and I've checked every fret on every string, and found zero buzzes. I can't even see space between the string and the first fret (at least in the dark man cave where I'm writing this from).

    Also, I've seen the repair yoyo they have at my local GC, and I know there's no way he set this mando up. I'm guessing it came nice from the factory, or somebody cranked down the bridge and the rest was just quality Chinese workmanship....it does exist, after all. Good QC is where it counts.


    I went ahead and snapped some pics, so you guys can tell me if this looks like a normal action height or if you think I could/should go lower:









    These pics show the only bridge feet gaps I can find, just on the corners. The paper wouldn't go in any further even if I tried to angle it further to one side or the other:






    As far as upgrades, instrument wise, this is it. I assured my wife that this is basically the mandolin I'm gonna die with. I didn't go looking for it...it found me, haha. After buying 2 different Japan-exclusive artist signature electric guitars, (and having them shipped from there) in the past 2 years, she's about had it with me getting instruments, and that's considering that she plays guitar herself.

    Luckily, she's ok with my "I need one of everything" philosophy (one has a 24 frets, which I didn't have one of...not counting my Rickenbacker 360....and the other is a strat with singles, which I also didn't have one of). Since she plays, that helps too...but I've basically assured her that I only need the 1 bass, 1 mandolin, 5 electric guitars (she has 3 of her own too, that I'm not counting...as well as a cheap Mahalo uke) so basically I've got room to get one nice acoustic (the last thing I'm missing) and then that's pretty much it. So no MAS for me.... I'm more of a "fix up what I got" kinda guy, anyway, though obviously that would probably be a little silly with The Loar. I put a pickup in it...may get an armrest, that's prolly gonna be it.....other than fixing the bridge feet, if you guys think it's worth the trouble.
    Last edited by Billkwando; Jun-15-2017 at 8:59pm. Reason: Missing pic

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    Default Re: The Loar LM-310F

    Quote Originally Posted by Billkwando View Post
    Rickenbacker 360....
    Two words that always kick my GAS into gear . . . .

  22. #44

    Default Re: The Loar LM-310F

    the playability of any stringed instrument - chiefly, string action as expressed by the setting of the neck, nut slots and bridge/saddle height, as expressed by the scale length, gauge and tension of the strings - belongs to the requirements of the player. this is strictly a human feel/touch and hearing understanding and acknowledgement.

    the more proper physical contact of the bridge to the soundboard, the better it will do its sound transmission job.
    Mandolins are truly *magic*!

  23. #45
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    Default Re: The Loar LM-310F

    Bill: Everybody likes their action a bit different - and I am certainly no expert, by any stretch of the imagination . . . but if that were my mandolin, I would most definitely bring the action down quite a bit. From what I can see of the pictures, it looks like you are getting high past the 5th fret or so. My suggestion would be to turn the thumbwheels all the way down for the lowest possible action, and then begin to play - if the action seems too low, or you get dead notes, then slowly begin to bring it back up again, until you feel that it is comfortable.

    NOTE: That is just my amateur opinion. Anybody else want to chime in?

  24. #46

    Default Re: The Loar LM-310F

    that's the way to go, mike - trust yer fingers and ears, as they are the absolute best and most truthful measuring tools for playability. the rest is in tweaking the hardware to make it do want you alone want it to do, which WILL require tools. not rocket science, just knowledge ... and a touch of craftsmanship, perhaps.
    Mandolins are truly *magic*!

  25. #47

    Default Re: The Loar LM-310F

    I went ahead and snapped some pics, so you guys can tell me if this looks like a normal action height or if you think I could/should go lower:
    Hello Kitty Neck rest! That is great. I am a closet fan... My wife has a fair amount that I secretly admire. haha

    It is always difficult to judge by pics, but in this case, it appears that the action is on the high side and there is too much relief. If this is truly the case (and not just an optical illusion), then removing some relief will also bring the action down.

    The very basics of setup would go..
    Set relief
    Set Nut height
    Set bridge height
    Set intonation

    There are many things this basic setup does not address. Such as, checking the height of the first fret before setting the nut height. It is not uncommon for the first fret to be high since frets are often leveled with the nut on and the first fret does not get enough leveling. Set the nut height to a high first fret, and your action ends up higher than it should be on every fret after the first. Moving the bridge for intonation, changes the string height, string height changes intonation... You go back and forth through these two, until it comes together. Many of the adjustments can be standardized with excellent results, but as you get down to the bleeding edge, everything becomes a factor and you may need to do multiple minor tweaks.

    With high action, minor fret issues go unnoticed, if your relief is close, that is good enough, etc... as the action comes down, all of those minor issues, become major issues.

    Everything is a compromise. Want a low nut height and little to no relief. Get the frets completely level and dressed, everything seems perfect, but what is this terrible buzz? It is the string buzzing behind the fretted note. You are fretting the 7th fret, and the string is lightly buzzing at the 6th. Arg! Your seemingly perfect setup needs more relief, which means lower the bridge, adjusting the intonation, maybe the bridge is bottomed out and needs to be recut.. All fun stuff, and precisely why it is very rare to get lower priced mandolins with top level setups. It is not the quality of the instrument that is the problem. It is the lack of profit from the sale to cover the level of setup needed to get an instrument playing great. A select handful of dealers do this, but it is probably less than 1%.
    Robert Fear
    http://www.folkmusician.com

    "Education is when you read the fine print; experience is what you get when you don't.
    " - Pete Seeger

  26. #48

    Default Re: The Loar LM-310F

    On the subject of this mandolin....

    These were first released as a GC exclusive. So far, only GC subsidiaries have them. The GC release was accompanied by special promo pricing, and I believe that just stopped. They will be released to all The Loar dealers soon.

    This model has a lot of potential, but I am not sure how many of the better dealers (those doing good setup work), will stock it. It is very difficult to roll the setup work in at this price point.
    Robert Fear
    http://www.folkmusician.com

    "Education is when you read the fine print; experience is what you get when you don't.
    " - Pete Seeger

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    Default Re: The Loar LM-310F

    Bought the LM-310F about two weeks ago from GC on-line. It need a full set up. I have done many mandolin set ups and certainly it is to be expected that it will be required but I often wonder what happens to the first time player with no experience. The fret work needed some leveling, the bridge was 3/8" too far forward and the truss rod was completely loose as if when it was installed no one tightened up the nut even a little. This of course is to be expected with a new $249.99 instrument. The top of the saddle was cut at an angle (see photo) and my first thought was, Oh this must be a new design approach. I was able to get a very nice action with the saddle adjusted as low as it would go, touching the top of the bridge. The original strings were light gauge so I installed EJ-74s and this helped the tone but overall I was disappointed and returned the mandolin to my local GC. They were very nice about the refund.
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    Default Re: The Loar LM-310F

    I recently had my 310 professionally set up - the whole 9 yards; bridge work, fret leveling, nut cut, intonation, etc. Including the original cost of the mandolin, I am now into the Loar for $300. While it does not play as well as my Eastman (which cost more than double my 310 investment), the Loar does have better tone - so, for those who are still thinking about buying a 310, in the end, it is all a matter of budget, and personal preference.

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