eBay buyer and goods not received

[Petrus]

This is just a question about a situation that has been bugging me for a while. I sold a small item on eBay a while back, something in the $20-30 range (say, a tailpiece or set of tuners -- I don't want to be too specific) and the buyer claimed never to have received the item.

Normally I wouldn't have a problem refunding the money for the sake of maintaining goodwill (because these things do happen, especially with little items) but the tracking data clearly indicated that USPS delivered the item to its destination. I communicated with the disgruntled buyer and reinforced this point and made several suggestions (is the buyer's mailbox unsecured? could another person living at that address have taken it? has the person spoken with the local mail carrier? etc.) but the person simply insists that, apparently, the tracking info is incorrect and that the item was absolutely not received.

Simple question -- should I refund the purchase price or stand on the tracking information record? Granted, that data could be wrong, but then what's the point of logging tracking data if it's ultimately not reliable and can't prove anything?

I've contacted eBay and the representative tells me that since the tracking data shows the item as correctly delivered, I am not under obligation to refund anything, but I still don't feel right about it since we seem to have a disgruntled customer. Of course if the data had shown the item not being delivered that would've been a completely different situation and I would have refunded the money without a qualm.

Let's say the person is telling the truth; am I really expected to ignore the USPS tracking data on this person's word?

[MC16]

Personally, I would not refund anything. You do not know if it was stolen, delivered to the wrong address, or the buyer is trying to scam you.

At the very least offer to file a claim with the post office. Most shipments through USPS comes with $50 in automatic insurance. Giving the buyer the benefit of the doubt, if the package is missed placed USPS needs to be looped in on it.

If it is a scam, getting USPS involved usually gets these types of buyers off your back.

[mrmando]

First instinct is that you are being scammed.

[Bill Kammerzell]

If the payment went thru PayPal they will back you on the tracking. I never had this happen. Yet.

[Jess L.]

... Let's say the person is telling the truth; am I really expected to ignore the USPS tracking data on this person's word?

I don't know, but I can tell you that in my region both USPS *and* UPS have a longstanding habit of simply dumping things off on people's doorsteps without even knocking, then they drive off leaving the package sitting there unprotected. They do that in *every* neighborhood in this region, whether a 'good' neighborhood or a 'bad' one.

There have even been times when I specifically had an item shipped "Signature Required" but the delivery person chose to ignore that and left the package sitting outdoors with no signature whatsoever (at least not *my* signature).

In the last 20 years I have had *two* instances of theft, packages stolen off my front step after the delivery person had left them there. Probably some punk on a bicycle cruising around looking for packages left out in the open like that. Thieves will steal anything, taking a chance that it might have something valuable in it.

All of this could be easily avoided if more shippers would ship to PO Boxes.

We do have a nice official Post Office box in town, that is precisely why we got a PO Box many years ago, for better security compared to a mailbox just sitting out alongside the road. (In this rural area, thugs sometimes go down an entire road and vandalize each and every mailbox on that entire road, many dozens of mailboxes.)

But so many shippers are still old-school and they refuse to ship to PO Boxes, they think it's "protecting" themselves somehow. Wrong. Such shippers are leaving themselves open to having the stuff they shipped stolen off of porches after the UPS *and* USPS delivery person dumps things off without even bothering to see if anyone's home or not. Leaves stuff wide open to theft from neighborhood opportunists.

A couple of years ago I finally could no longer put up with delivery-company incompetence and I went and paid some extra money to rent one of those mailboxes in town that gives you a "street address" (rather than a PO box address) as a workaround for businesses that refuse to ship to a PO Box. But, the "street address" type of mailbox costs a heck of a lot more than a regular Post Office PO Box, and I'm not sure I'm going to renew it when it comes due. I think instead, I'm just going to revert back to using our old longstanding PO Box instead, and if shippers can't ship to that, then I will buy from someone else who can.

So, I don't have an answer to your question, but I can attest that sometimes things do get stolen even after they're supposedly "delivered".

The tracking system is broken and relatively useless, in my experience. All "delivered" means is that the package left the delivery truck, it doesn't necessarily mean that the intended new owner actually received the package.

I wish they (the shippers and delivery companies) would fix this, because it's an impediment to online/mailorder purchases.

Addenda: I haven't dealt much with other delivery outfits such as DHL and FedEx, but the few times that I've used those services, they were *much* more professional and they actually knocked on the door, waited for someone to come to the door, and handed the package to the house occupant personally. If no one was home, they'd put the package back in the truck, after leaving a note informing the intended recipient how to schedule a re-delivery. Much better! I think if I were a *shipper*, I would use those companies (assuming they haven't changed for the worse) because I would feel more confident that what I'd shipped wasn't going to get 'lost' somewhere.

(I can understand why delivery persons would routinely choose to take the quicker method, if they can save a couple of minutes on each stop, and if they have like 30-50+ (???) stops per day, they're saving themselves a lot of time on each day's work shift, and maybe their bosses actually push for that because it reduces the payroll expenses. But that type of time-saving comes at the customers' expense, both the seller *and* the buyer. Incidentally, in years past I've worked *other* types of truck driving jobs (semi trucks) where fastness was pushed heavily by the bosses, even when it sacrificed safety or customer satisfaction, I didn't like that emphasis (not gonna take speed just so the bosses can make more money to buy yet another new Mercedes) and I found work with better trucking companies that had more balanced priorities as far as safety etc. Note also that I always worked on "percentage", I was never paid hourly, so the more drops I could make per week, the more money I made (no pay for waiting, no pay for sitting around doing nothing), but there are limits to everything.)

[Jeff Mando]

I'm going through a similar claim on eBay over a $70 item plus shipping, total of $81. He claims he didn't get it. USPS says they delivered it on such and such date. He cleverly waited two weeks after the delivery to file a claim with eBay, by the way. I checked his eBay history and he joined eBay the same day he bought my item. He has zero feedback. (I have almost 4000, all positive) Obvious scam, to my eyes. It will be interesting to see how eBay rules in this matter. I think it is just a matter of a few days, at this point. But, last time I checked, USPS tracking should be proof positive, in my favor.

I agree a neighbor could have stolen it, if he lives in a bad neighborhood. I had one situation where the guy's wife checked the mail on the way to her car to run errands and my item was in her car for two weeks before the buyer found it, so these things do happen, but in neither case, should you as the seller be held responsible, IMHO.

I'm like you, in the interest of goodwill, I have given small refunds to keep a customer happy, but then again, where do you draw the line? $20, $30, $81? Good luck with your decision.

[Bill Kammerzell]

I have never had the occasion when I shipped, requesting a signature, or something was shipped to me, where that signature was needed, that any delivery service left the package without a signature. On Presidents Day a Priority package came to me, by USPS, where the guy was working overtime. I wasn't aware they ever did that at USPS? The guy knocked extra long on my door, as he figured I would not be expecting the package when USPS was closed. I cannot recall not getting a package I was supposed to get, or vice versa.

[Jeff Mando]

The tracking system is broken and relatively useless, in my experience. All "delivered" means is that the package left the delivery truck, it doesn't necessarily mean that the intended new owner actually received the package.

Good point, but as a seller, I feel my responsibility has ended once I drop it off at the post office/Fed Ex/UPS, whatever. Short of driving 3000 miles and hand delivering the package, I don't know what else can be done, in a timely and cost-effective manner.

Needless to say, from the buyer's point of view they would feel my responsibility ends when it is in their hands and they are holding it.

I wonder what Judge Judy would say?

[Jess L.]

I have never had the occasion when I shipped, requesting a signature, or something was shipped to me, where that signature was needed, that any delivery service left the package without a signature. On Presidents Day a Priority package came to me, by USPS, where the guy was working overtime. I wasn't aware they ever did that at USPS? The guy knocked extra long on my door, as he figured I would not be expecting the package when USPS was closed. ...

Maybe it's a regional thing. Here, this entire county, both the rural parts and what passes for town parts, are as I described earlier. Even USPS, if the box is too big to fit in a roadside mailbox, they'll leave the box setting on the step/porch regardless of whether anyone's home or not. Not just us, it's everyone in this area. Of course, this entire county *could* possibly be considered to be a 'bad neighborhood' lol.

Even in remote rural areas there are many, many people who seem to 'need' more than what they have (i.e, thieves).

A different rural area, where my folks used to live decades ago, up the road a mile or so was a household of thieves. The thieves would watch to see which cars drove past that afternoon (not many cars on those roads, maybe one or two per hour), the thieves had done their research and they already knew which cars belonged to which houses down the road, so when they'd see car "x" drive by they figured there was a possibility that the corresponding house "x" was unattended so they'd hop in their own car and go see.

My folks lost chainsaws, tools, even had an entire engine and transmission stolen (it was already detached from one of our back field "parts cars" in preparation to install in another vehicle).

One time, my dad took the usual daily-driver vehicle to town to buy some stuff for the horses. Sure enough, a few minutes after he'd left the driveway, here come the thief neighbors, driving right up the driveway as if they owned the place [1]. The thieves got out of their vehicle and proceeded to put their grubby paws on some items, but just then they got a surprise. My mom had stayed home that time, and she heard the unfamiliar-sounding car pull up in the driveway, she went to the upstairs bedroom window and calmly propped her sweet sixteen (similar to this) on the windowsill pointed towards the yard, and she asked them "Can I help you with something?" They jumped in their vehicle, empty-handed, and backed out of that driveway so fast it was like their tails were on fire! LOL. Never had any problem with them after that. Incidentally, too far out of town for law-enforcement to bother with, even though the nearest house belonged to the brother-in-law of the county sheriff, they had the same issues with the thieves that everyone else had.

Footnote:
1. Yeah a gate would *seem* to be a good idea but not necessarily so, because a "closed gate" sends the same message as a porchlight that's been left on: it can tell thieves "no one's home, come on in". In some ways, a closed gate is almost *more* of an invitation to thieves than no gate at all. Depends on how many other access points there are to the property. Larger properties are harder to secure all the borders.

[Jess L.]

... Short of driving 3000 miles and hand delivering the package, I don't know what else can be done, in a timely and cost-effective manner. ...

Use DHL or Fedex. That's what I will do if I ever have to ship anything again. Not sure about cost or convenience though, but it would be worth it to me just for better certainty & confidence. My admittedly-limited experience with *receiving* DHL and FedEx packages, is what I base this on, they don't do the drop-and-run thing that UPS and USPS do. Of course my experiences are just 'anecdotal' but that's all I got.

[Jeff Mando]

JL277z, wow, that certainly paints an interesting picture of "living in fear!" Aside from moving, not sure what to suggest. Seems like postal delivery is the LEAST of your problems. My experience is quite different. After living in large crime-ridden cities most of my life, we moved to a rural location about an hour from the "big city." It is like living in the 1930's -- there is no crime, aside from the occasional domestic argument that ends in murder every two or three years. Cops stop cars for expired tags, just to keep their ticket writing skills in practice. I don't, but I could leave my instruments in my car after a gig and nobody would bother them. Mail is safely delivered, as well.

[Jess L.]

JL277z, wow, that certainly paints an interesting picture of "living in fear!" Aside from moving, not sure what to suggest. Seems like postal delivery is the LEAST of your problems. ...

Never really thought of it as "fear", it's just normal stuff, like swatting mosquitos or something, always been that way. Wouldn't want to move and couldn't afford to move anyway, everywhere else costs too much (there's often a reason why some regions' real estate is priced lower).

Anyway... I hope it turns out well for the OP and anyone else who's having to deal with packages that went missing. It's frustrating not knowing whether someone is trying to rip you off or if they have a legitimate issue.

[HonketyHank]

In our area (suburban, high density single family homes), the difference between a USPS and a UPS delivery is that the UPS driver will ring the doorbell before he drops the package on the stoop. USPS drivers won't. I wish they would.

[mee]

I sell on Ebay and use priority with insurance to $50 and pay for extra insurance on big ticket items. I track the item myself and then check with purchaser when it shows delivered. I haven't had any problems there. But on the other hand, I find packages I have ordered dangling in a plastic bag off my mailbox by the road where anyone passing by could grab it. I have also found items sitting on my walkway halfway between the road and my house. I get neighbors mail in my box on a daily basis. I really don't trust USPS, I think at least for my area they have gotten sloppy and lazy. AS for your situation I think I would let Ebay and Paypal figure it out. If the person is scamming you, you don't want to encourage them, let it go on record with Ebay if they should try it again.

[Mandoplumb]

I had a Flatiron mandolin shipped from Gibson. UPS sat it on the porch with Gibson name in big block letter facing the street. Fortunely I got home while it was still there but if I hadn't the tracking would have shown it delivered and it would have been correct as far as that goes. I said that to say this, in order to keep a good reputation one has to give the buyer the benefit of doubt, yes go for insurance if possible but sometimes we just have to eat the loss and move on.

[Petrus]

Interesting experiences. I've had instruments delivered and left inside the patio, which is not really secure. Eventually I got wise and if it's coming by UPS, I go to their site (w/tracking number) and request they hold for pickup. Usually USPS will leave a note in the mailbox and I'll usually elect to pick up the item at the nearest station (about 1/4 mile away.) Smaller items that can fit into the mailbox I don't worry so much about.

In terms of sending something out, I do try to go for signature confirmation. I think Priority is also a little safer but am not positive about that.

[Bill Kammerzell]

Never really thought of it as "fear", it's just normal stuff, like swatting mosquitos or something, always been that way. Wouldn't want to move and couldn't afford to move anyway, everywhere else costs too much (there's often a reason why some regions' real estate is priced lower).

Anyway... I hope it turns out well for the OP and anyone else who's having to deal with packages that went missing. It's frustrating not knowing whether someone is trying to rip you off or if they have a legitimate issue.

Really? Little stuff like swatting mosquitos? You wrote about 20 paragraphs to describe just swatting mosquitos?

[Jess L.]

Really? Little stuff like swatting mosquitos? You wrote about 20 paragraphs to describe just swatting mosquitos?

Guess it depends on what one is used to. Anyway, what I wrote was relevant to the topic.

[Tom C]

If I don't want something sitting out in front of my house, I have it shipped to my office. If it's something shipped to my house that may require signature (nothing expensive or worth anything to anybody else), I leave signed note on door to leave package. Now it's my issue if somebody takes it, but if the note is gone, I know it was delivered.

[nickster60]

I had a conversation with Cafe sponsor about this very issue. I had just had a buyer claim the same thing. The Cafe sponsor told me had more issues with eBay customers than from any other source. eBay has their buyer protection plan that will if they choose refund the buyer his money. You have proof it was delivered and you will also keep your head money. Maybe this policy is why this happens, dishonest people get items for free.

[darrylicshon]

I recently went thru two claims with eBay one I shipped and the buyer said he didn't get it , but USPS said it was delivered he took forever to pay, after many emails back and forth and escalating to a claim I finally won. The other one was a ibanez mandolin return it either got damaged in shipping or was before he shipped , we had worked a deal where he was going to give me a partial refund about half the cash, well after a few weeks waiting for it , and him saying different reasons for not doing it, I flied a return, eBay gave me a shipping label for the return I shipped it. Tracking only said it left the post office and still says that. After about a month and a half eBay gave me my money back, but the only reason I think I won was using the eBay shipping label because they knew that it had the right address, I talked to the seller he said it never arrived, but who knows if he did or not , I have received packages and USPS forgot to scan it before they dropped it off , so I'll probably never know

[Northwest Steve]

Ebay and Paypal seems to error on the side of the buyer, to a fault. Almost always the seller eats it in my experience. I know a few business that do a lot of internet business and they will no longer take Paypal sue to this. I have bought and sold my share of items on other forums and ebay. I have almost quit paying for insurance on items. The shippers are very good at finding excuses to deny the claim and you really have no recourse. On an instrument I would still pay for insurance. With the price of insurance and the few items that I have received damaged I have decided self insurance is the way to go. A few things we can do to protect ourselves is to require that the buyer have a certain amount of transactions and a certain % of feedback. that way you don't get the fist timer/scammer. Also with the thefts from door steps and scams I require a signature on any package that I don't feel comfortable in loosing ($100 =/-). That way I have a starting point and an recipient period. I also think they is some more accountability on the carriers end (no wrong address), maybe they think is valuable?

To the OP's original question, if they file a claim I think either ebay or paypal will side with the buyer.

[Roger Moss]

This happened to me a month ago. I ordered two items from Amazon which were shipped separately but would be deliverrd the same day. Both had tracking numbers which I followed closely. On the day they were out for delivery I watched for the mailman. He came and went with no packages. I went online and the packages were listed delivered. Suspicious I looked out the window to the building in back to see the mailman carry two packages into the building. He left but came back minutes later and picked up the packages. Expecting him I waited but no delivery. I called USPS and freaked out on the poor operator who promised they would be delivered. They arrived the next day.

[Folkmusician.com]

Crazy things happen during shipping.

We have packages that are scanned delivered when received by the post office. Things get misrouted, mis-delivered, never scanned at all, etc... It is a small percentage, but since I ship a lot, I get to see all the worst case scenarios.

95% of the time, even the problem shipments turn out fine. Things that are scanned incorrectly, not scanned at all, appear to be lost, etc.. almost always still get delivered correctly in the end.

One thing that has proven to be true.

We get a significantly higher percentage of "lost" packages with eBay sales than orders through other channels. The packages are packed in the same packaging, processed through the same shipping software and labeled with the same labels, yet eBay customers are the only ones telling us that they are not receiving the packages. Rather a strange phenomenon!

[nickster60]

There was a time when EBay was ripe with seller issues. The buyers were leaving in droves. To stem the tide the came up with the buyers protection plan. This policy IMO is the reason these fraud cases. If you know that you can keep the item and file a claim and get your money back.it is a win win for these sketchy characters. I still sell a few things on eBay but not like I use to.