Proper pick grip

[AndyPanda]

OK ... it's my first day playing mandolin but I've been reading the forum and watching videos for a couple of weeks. My only stringed instrument experience is with bass so this is quite a shock trying to fit my fat fingers between those tiny frets.

Now I've read about (and watched videos) of the pick position and I do see how having all four fingers (or at least the middle finger) supports the forefinger. And when I do that I can feel that support on the upstroke. But I just cannot get my hand comfortable nor can I find the strings I mean to pick. And the side of my forefinger gets sore - yeah, it's my first day so I'm sure I need to just persist and learn this new thing.

Probably because I already have callouses on the pads of my fingers from plucking the bass (but none on the sides of my fingers - I'm not playing upright bass) It feels much better to me to hold the pick between my thumb and the pads of my fingertips instead of the sides. And I can find the strings I want AND I can pick back away from the Florida extension - in fact that's where it feels natural to pick. But if I try the correct grip I find I'm picking right over Florida

I watched a video that said "you're not turning a door knob" indicating that the picking motion shouldn't be a rotation but an up-down motion of the wrist. I find I am rotating like turning a door knob.

I sort of already know the answer (so why am I asking) - that I should learn correctly even though it slows me down now and keep at it and eventually it'll make me faster.


This is Chris Thile showing how to hold the pick:


And this is me doing it all wrong - but having a blast on my first day playing mandolin. Do I need to immediately stop having fun and do it correctly? Am I hurting myself playing like this?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OSbylGJRbX0

[sblock]

Hey, it's just your first day!!!! Just about EVERYTHING has a way of feeling uncomfortable, at least at first. Just stick with it, and try to learn good hand position for both the left and right hands. Believe me, it will all come with enough practice. A little extra effort (and even some minor discomfort) at this stage, learning to execute things right, will pay huge dividends later, so that you don't develop awkward habits and tics that you might well have to "unlearn" later (but with much greater difficulty) as you progress and develop greater skill and speed. Don't fret with the left hand like a guitarist. Don't plant your right-hand pinky like a banjo player. Learn proper hand placement, proper pick grip, proper posture, and so on. There are basically two types of effective grip. The "standard" one holds the pick between the pad of the thumb and the top side of the bent index finger, in the region above the first joint, and supported from below by the other fingers. This is the same grip that Chris Thile uses, and so do most of the major players, using one or another very minor variations. But a few mandolin players -- including some great ones -- use a rather different grip, which holds the pick between the pad of the thumb and the pad of the index finger, which is therefore more extended, and occasionally even joined by the pad of the ring finger, held adjacent. I'd recommend learning the standard grip, but the other one works perfectly well for some people. If you find yourself picking over the wrong area, as you say (like over the fingerboard extension), then just MOVE YOUR ENTIRE HAND back towards the tailpiece. Problem solved. You can use either type of pick grip to pick anywhere you want by just moving your hand: you are certainly not required to pick in any particular spot by the grip you choose!

Anyway, pick a grip and then practice like a fiend. A happy fiend, that is. What could possibly be more fun than playing mandolin, I ask? (Hey, fellow Cafe-ers, that's a rhetorical question!!).

[JeffD]

Hey, it's just your first day!!!! Just about EVERYTHING has a way of feeling uncomfortable, at least at first.

That's it right there. Its all going to feel strange.

[Mark Wilson]

Careful - little deviations from proven methods that makes it easier going slow when starting out 'could' be the bad habit in your way once you figure out how to go faster

First day! congrats

[Tobin]

Yep, it's going to feel strange and alien to do it the "right way" when you start out, but it's very important. All of us who have played for more than a few years have had to go back at some point and readjust our picking technique because we had bad habits that became a roadblock later. You will too, I imagine, even if you are trying to do it right from the start. But the closer you can get it to correct from the get-go, the less trouble you'll have later.

What I see in your video is that you have a lot of tension in your picking hand. I mean, a LOT of tension. You're going to end up with serious pain, cramping, and possibly tendon or nerve issues if you play like that for long periods of time. I know it's not natural for you at this point, but you really need to close that hand up, get the pick between your fingers like your Thile photo, and learn to relax, holding the pick loosely. Use wrist motion parallel to the face of the mandolin, and just get used to that loose movement.

Most new players tend to pick like they're fighting the strings. You don't need to use that much 'snap' as you pick across the string. Which means you don't need to have a death grip on the pick.

Also, another thing that stood out in your video was pick direction. That's something you're going to want to jump on pretty quickly and cement into your playing style before it gets away from you. It'll be very hard to correct later. For a typical 4/4 tune like the one you're playing (Whiskey Before Breakfast), you want to use a standard down-up-down-up approach. I believe Thile covers this as well in his videos. Heck, all the pros cover it in their lessons. Pay attention to it and make it a natural flowing movement along with the relaxed pick grip, and it will start to feel natural soon enough.

Not bad picking, though, for your first day on the mandolin!

[Drew Egerton]

What I see in your video is that you have a lot of tension in your picking hand. I mean, a LOT of tension. You're going to end up with serious pain, cramping, and possibly tendon or nerve issues if you play like that for long periods of time. I know it's not natural for you at this point, but you really need to close that hand up, get the pick between your fingers like your Thile photo, and learn to relax, holding the pick loosely. Use wrist motion parallel to the face of the mandolin, and just get used to that loose movement.

This!

Take a look at Ronnie McCoury's wrist for an example of keeping it loose. "Like a dishrag" as Del told him when he started.
I still struggle with that sometimes on stage when the nerves take over or the speed gets out of hand. I think the tension is a bigger concern than how exactly to hold the pick. Look at Thile, Steffey, Bibey, Benson, etc. and they all do things differently in the details.
As they say in racing, loose is fast and on the edge (but not) of out of control!

[AndyPanda]

Thanks for all the helpful replies!

I've ordered the Chris Thile instructional DVD. Should have it in a couple of days. Meanwhile I'm practicing with the correct pick hold and getting used to it (though I sound terrible still - I know it'll come along).

The palm of my hand (that fat pad where the thumb joins my hand) is getting a sore spot from the sharp corner at the rear of the bridge saddle on the bass side. I can smooth/round that corner off but should my palm be resting/hitting that spot when I pick or should my hand be floating in the air and not touching the bridge? It's the downstroke where my hand hits that sharp edge.

[JeffD]

I like brushing, or as Mike says, "ever so slightly".

[sblock]

Thanks for all the helpful replies!

I've ordered the Chris Thile instructional DVD. Should have it in a couple of days. Meanwhile I'm practicing with the correct pick hold and getting used to it (though I sound terrible still - I know it'll come along).

The palm of my hand (that fat pad where the thumb joins my hand) is getting a sore spot from the sharp corner at the rear of the bridge saddle on the bass side. I can smooth/round that corner off but should my palm be resting/hitting that spot when I pick or should my hand be floating in the air and not touching the bridge? It's the downstroke where my hand hits that sharp edge.

No, the palm of your hand should NOT be bearing down against the bridge! First, because of the constant hand motion involved in picking, it will wind up physically hurting you -- just as you've already discovered. Second, downward hand pressure applied to the bridge while sounding notes will absolutely kill the sound and ruin the tone (i.e., it acts like a mute). And third, fixing a single point of your palm against the bridge will prevent your hand from moving to other, useful picking positions, e.g., closer to the nut for a warmer tone, or closer to the bridge for a brighter tone. The better mandolinists micro-adjust their hand position all the time, in response to the music!

The point behind having the palm gently brush against the bridge, exerting negligible down-bearing pressure, is to provide a kinesthetic frame of reference, so your body knows exactly where your picking hand is, particularly along the dimension perpendicular to the top -- that is, in the direction towards or away from the mandolin, which sets the the picking depth. Getting just the right picking depth is critical, and one of the hardest things to learn at first. Too low, and you're jamming the pick down into the strings and encountering huge resistance while picking, requiring excessive strength and killing picking speed (which may be happening to you, based on your video). Too high, and you don't get good tone or volume from the strings, pick too lightly, and occasionally miss a string altogether! The depth has to be JUST RIGHT, and based on a loose hand. Now, 5-string bluegrass banjo players get the picking depth just right, and also get additional anchoring stability, by posting their pinky (and often the ring finger, too) against the top of the banjo head. And some mandolin players also post their pinky, too, for the exactly the same reason. But this is not considered to be good mandolin technique: it restricts the free hand motion needed for truly clean picking, and it eventually wears a hole clear through the finish, and even through the wood of the top, unless a pickguard is used -- and you don't have one. There are many threads on the pros and cons of pinky (or even ring finger) posting on the Mandolin Cafe. My suggestion is: if you're just beginning to learn, avoid doing it from the outset.

So instead of doing that, by brushing the the palm of the hand very lightly against the bridge saddle, you establish a steady frame of reference for the right-hand position, and especially for the picking depth. You can, of course, pick entirely freehand and never come into contact with the bridge at all -- and some folks do that. But then it's harder to establish that frame of reference for the right picking depth, which has to be correct to within millimeters!

Hopefully, that's clear enough.

[Mandoplumb]

There are as many answers to some of your questions as there are pickers. For example Sblock spoke of "free-handing" your picking hand, some do, I can't and I've played mandolin for 50 years. Some lightly brush the bridge as he said, I have a problem doing that, I quit brushing and try to plant my hand on the bridge and as stated that is a real problem for several reasons. What wasn't mentioned was brushing your pinky against the top or a pic guard which is what I do, there again planting is a problem. The point is, there are many correct ways to do all things mandolin and in my opinion, if you don't have a family member that plays mandolin, get a teacher that plays mandolin ( not a guitar play that knows a few chords on a mandolin) and do like he says until you become knowable enough to know why you are changing the way he says to do it. Yes that will mean that in some cases you will have to unlearn what you have learned, but you will find that the need to change will be very few. Asking everyone how to do it after only a week will just confuse and frustrate you IMHO.

[David L]

Thanks for all the helpful replies!

I've ordered the Chris Thile instructional DVD. Should have it in a couple of days. Meanwhile I'm practicing with the correct pick hold and getting used to it (though I sound terrible still - I know it'll come along).

The palm of my hand (that fat pad where the thumb joins my hand) is getting a sore spot from the sharp corner at the rear of the bridge saddle on the bass side. I can smooth/round that corner off but should my palm be resting/hitting that spot when I pick or should my hand be floating in the air and not touching the bridge? It's the downstroke where my hand hits that sharp edge.

If you are LIGHTLY touching the bridge or the unplayed strings just in front of the bridge, that is fine. I find that the corner of the bridge needs to be nice and rounded. I have sanded that corner on almost every instrument I own.

[George R. Lane]

I believe you would benefit from McClung armrest (I use one), sold by fellow Café member Doug Edwards. It will help you with the bridge corner problem by putting your hand in a correct position. I also agree that you have to loosen your grip, when I started playing I did the same thing and after a short while my hand was in a lot of pain. Aside from all the good advice you have been given your timing is very good.

Here is a link to Doug Edwards website; http://hillcountrystringworks.com/armrest5.html

[AndyPanda]

If you are LIGHTLY touching the bridge or the unplayed strings just in front of the bridge, that is fine. I find that the corner of the bridge needs to be nice and rounded. I have sanded that corner on almost every instrument I own.

Yes ... this is exactly what I'm doing. It's lightly brushing - but that corner is razor sharp so the continual back and forth (practicing up down strokes to a metronome) starts to irritate the skin in that area. I think rounding off the corners is what I need to do here.

[sblock]

Yes ... this is exactly what I'm doing. It's lightly brushing - but that corner is razor sharp so the continual back and forth (practicing up down strokes to a metronome) starts to irritate the skin in that area. I think rounding off the corners is what I need to do here.

You're welcome, of course, to round over your saddle edge on the G-side with some sandpaper. But the truth be told, with proper right-hand position, you should not be continually bumping into it in the first place! When we say that the palm of the right hand "gently brushes over" the bridge saddle, we usually mean that the palm remains level with the top of the saddle and brushes back and forth. We do not mean that it comes on and off the saddle, continually bumping against it with each picking stroke, NOR do we mean that the palm it is pressed up against the edge of the saddle, either. I strongly suspect that you have the wrong hand position if hitting the edge of the saddle is your problem. One very real possibility is that you are carrying your hand too low, so that a significant portion of your palm is situated on a level below that of the saddle top ("above" and "below" here mean with respect to the top of the instrument, not vertically)! As you rotate your wrist to move the pick up and down, that part of your palm keeps bumping into the corner of the bridge. Well, that's NOT where you should have your palm. The entire palm needs to remain above the level of the bridge saddle, and only the tip of the pick and fingers should reach "below" that level (i.e., towards the top) while picking. That gives the hand space to rotate without interfering with the bridge.

As someone suggested earlier, installing an armrest may help you to position your right hand in the proper place, by elevating your entire forearm a bit more. It does for a lot of people. But even if you don't install an armrest, you still need to raise your palm and re-position your hand so that it doesn't drop below the saddle level, and stops bumping into that saddle corner all the time (or resting against it). You should be gently brushing the flat part of the bridge saddle, instead. Not hitting the corners.

[AndyPanda]

I know that in the video I was holding the pick wrong and rotating my wrist - and doing that the pick was extended so I could reach the strings while my palm was nowhere near the saddle. But I believe I'm hearing that the correct pick hold and correct wrist motion has my wrist flexing up and down and not rotating at all. (am I correct on that?) And with that pick hold I have to get my hand much closer to the strings.

Now if I hold the pick the way I think is correct, my palm is NOT flat (this may just be my hand) - the pad of flesh where my thumb joins my hand bulges out and that is what is "lightly" brushing into the razor sharp point of the saddle when I'm downstroking on the E or A strings. And I'd have to hold my whole arm way out in front of the instrument (in an unnatural way) to be able to reach the strings with the pick and not have that ball of flesh brush the saddle.

Am I holding the pick correctly in this picture? The red circle is where the sharp saddle rubs my skin.

and thanks so much for being patient with my dumb questions and helping me get started

[AndyPanda]

I made a quick video of my confusion about right hand position - if you could take a look and tell me what I'm missing, I'd appreciate it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=em5Ra6prloI

[Tobin]

In your latest pic, I'd say your hand is too tight, like a fist. Again, that creates tension. It should be loosely curled. Your fingers may or may not actually touch your palm, depending on your natural hand shape. But when you relax your hand, the pad at the base of your thumb will not be as rounded.

Some folks, including me, play with more of an open hand. I mean, the three extra fingers are still slightly curled, but they brush lightly over the finger rest (pick guard). This, in combination with an arm rest, really helps with the angle and provides a reference for the picking hand, which helps get the palm away from the saddle.

Plus, it allows me to pick the strings further away from the bridge (toward the neck), around the 22nd fret area. MUCH better tone up there. Wrist couldn't hit the bridge even if I wanted to.

[CES]

Your questions aren't dumb at all!! On the contrary, they're quite intelligent. I have the Thile video as well...he'll answer your questions much better than we can, I assure you! I also like Mike Marshall's vids (that I think you can get to from the D'Addairio website), which describe similar techniques.

I personally flip back and forth between the Thile grip and a similar pick hold but with my pinky lightly brushing the top. I'd love to go completely floating, but don't have enough hours in the day to get it down...

Stick with it, and embrace the early struggle, it will pay dividends down the road!!

[AndyPanda]

In your latest pic, I'd say your hand is too tight, like a fist. It should be loosely curled.

Thanks .. if this grip is OK, this solves that particular problem for me. With the pick held like this, I can reach the strings without rubbing on the saddle.

[George R. Lane]

Andy,
I hold my hand similar to yours, the only difference is I relax my fingers even more. Yes, sometimes I brush against the top and make a very faint mark, not a big deal to me.

[Ivan Kelsall]

Andy - The way you hold your pick as in your last post,is the way i hold mine. I hold it pretty firmly,but not too tight & i always have a limp wrist ( no comments please !). The Chris Thile DVD was the one i bought within the first week of owning a mandolin - it was the only tuition DVD for mandolin in the store. It's too advanced for beginners,but it does have many useful bits, even for a beginner,but,not all with suit you & they didn't suit me. It's the old story,use what you can & forget the rest.

My own pick problem at the start,was keeping the pick between my fingers at all,but over time i managed it. I do rest my hand on the saddle - very lightly. The amount of extra down pressure must be zero compared to what's already there, & i notice no change in tone over picking the strings when i'm playing 'chop chords' when i don't rest my hand.

It all takes time & practice & you'll get there as we all did - eventually ,
Ivan

[bratsche]

Andy, your video in post 16 illustrates the same exact situation I had with my hand anatomy when I learned the closed-fist position, and why I had to majorly alter it for my use. You describe the problem perfectly! I started out before that by instinctively trying to hold the pick from the fingertips as well - in fact with forefinger, thumb and middle finger. But that wasn't optimal either. I could get a good sound that way, but not much speed in fast passages. Then I tried the "closed fist position" - which in my case, was more of a "grip" than a "hold". It really was not a natural position to keep my hand in for any reasonable period of time, even disregarding the fact that the fleshy part of the base of my thumb was getting in the way, so it led to tension and inevitable fatigue. My first finger would even go numb after a short while from being held so tightly curled up!

Now, when I hold my hand in a fist, and then tell myself to "relax", it remains in a position with all my fingers still curled inward, but no longer are the fingertips touching the palm, but instead they're about an inch away from the palm. This is where I have found it most comfortable and least tension-producing to play. The pick rests on my pointer finger's first joint from the fingertip, but that joint is open to about a 135 degree angle. Then the thumb covers most of the pick with just enough sticking out to play with (I use a large triangle shape thick pick). This way, the fleshy part of the base of my thumb does not protrude or get in the way of the bridge, though I may brush it lightly.

Good luck, and just try to find the position that works best for you. It's a process of trial and error, to be sure!

FWIW, I use armrests on my instruments also, which fit over the tailpiece, as that's where my arm comes over the instrument. I find it helps get additional elevation over the bridge (and protects the tailpiece from my arm damping vibration, as well as marring the tailpiece's finish with sweat).

bratsche

[Bill Findley]

Check out "Mike Marshall on Mandolin Tips" on youtube.

[sblock]

+1. I agree completely with Bratsche that with the "standard" grip (the one that uses the first joint of the index finger, and not the pad of that finger), the middle, ring, and pinky fingers are NOT tightened into a tense ball (like your first photo), but curl more gently inwards (like your second photo), and stay relaxed, so that they only come to within about half an inch of the the palm itself - and do not touch it. With this hand position, you can place the central (flat) part of your palm (the upper wrist) over the middle part of the bridge saddle. That way, the balls of the palm do not run right into the edge of the bridge saddle every time you flex your wrist and pick, but instead brush gently over it.

If you can learn good habits from the outset, there will be far less to unlearn later. As you see, many "pinky posters" present on this site really wish that they didn't have to do that (and have ugly blemishes in the tops of their instruments that stand in mute testimony of their less-than-perfect technique), but they now find it almost impossible to unlearn this habit. They would probably have to stop playing decently for weeks to months, in fact, to re-learn a new position and grip. Well, that's flat-out HARD! Maybe even harder than giving up smoking? Similar considerations hold for folks who under-use their pinkies on the left hand, using the ringer finger instead on the 7th fret. And it goes for folks who fret more like a guitarist than an mandolinist, with "flat fingers", not arched ones. It's very, very difficult to break old habits that actually work well at first, but might pose more subtle problems down the line. So try to start out right.

[AndyPanda]

I received the Chris Thile DVD and it is the perfect instructional video IMO. I get really impatient with the typical YouTube tutorials that go at a snail's pace. I love that this instructional goes directly to proper technique and exercises that focus on building specific technique. And he gives good reasons - I really appreciate that!

I'm working on pick direction and three octave scales - woohoo! I'm glad I got this early on - I've had to spend a little time un-learning what I had been practicing and relearn several scales with correct pick direction ... but it's becoming more natural with each practice session.

Every once in awhile I find my pick hand relaxing and it feels so much better than the tensed up grip that I fall into. I'm excited, knowing that it's coming along and I'm going to be able to get this.