Proper pick grip

[PhilGox]

Hello Andy,

As I'm an old bass player too I hold the pick in a "wrong" position too.
I hold it between the pads of index and thumb, exactly as if I was playing with my index nail, without a pick.
(when I loose my pick, I play this way with my index nail...)
I think that it's the position which came naturally when you are used to pick the bass with your fingers unfolded.
But for me holding the pick in the academic way (with the index folded as shown in your last photo) is just impossible.
Feeling the same as triing to write with the wrong hand.
I triied to practice it but always came back to my "wrong" position every time I just wanted to play without thinking about my fingers.

It is not the only bad habit I heritated from bass playing.
For exemple on bass your fingers only do up strokes.
So for my little brain, a "natural" stroke is an up stroke.
When I read an exercise where up and down strokes are mentioned, I always reverse them if I am not VERY carefull.
I mean I naturaly begin with an up stroke instead of a down.

I tried hard to convince my brain to do everything " the right way" but I finally surendered.
Now I just get the pick as it seems natural to me and don't really care for how up and down strokes come.
Because for me the deal was: To play with fun or to forget mandolin.
I choosed to play it anyway.
I won't say I'm an exemple to follow but now I can play not so bad and... with lot of fun!

This just to say that you're not alone with your questions
Hope you'll reach your goal

[MediumMando5722]

I use a similar grip to Thile's, but my fingers often don't stay in a fist. Also, I played electric guitar for over 20 years before picking up mandolin, so no palm-heel contact with the strings doesn't fly. I spent a lot of time using both hands to keep control over my guitar and see no reason to stop. I don't exactly rest my palm on the bridge, but rather use it to silence sympathetic ringing.

[Ivan Kelsall]

I've just been watching the opening sequence of the DVD ''Bluegrass Journey''. I know that Chris Thile posted a video where he advocates holding the pick ''this way'' -well, he didn't hold it like that back in 2004 !. He held it pretty much as i do & as Andy showed in his pic.,between the side of his first finger joint & thumb. I like to hold it like that because if i need any extra power,i use my fingers rather than my wrist to produce it. Holding the pick cushioned between your folded up first finger & thumb,you can't do that.

CT may very well have changed the way he holds his pick 'now',but the way he hed it 'then' produced pretty good results to my ears,
Ivan

[AndyPanda]

I've noticed, while watching many YouTube videos, that even Chris sometimes opens up and has his pinky, ring and middle finger brushing the top. It's not often that Chris does it - but Grisman pretty much always does and Mike Marshall changes up between several holds.

[AndyPanda]

I've just been watching the opening sequence of the DVD ''Bluegrass Journey''.

I just looked at that video and grabbed this screen capture from the opening sequence.

[Stevo75]

I've just been watching the opening sequence of the DVD ''Bluegrass Journey''. I know that Chris Thile posted a video where he advocates holding the pick ''this way'' -well, he didn't hold it like that back in 2004 !. He held it pretty much as i do & as Andy showed in his pic.,between the side of his first finger joint & thumb. I like to hold it like that because if i need any extra power,i use my fingers rather than my wrist to produce it. Holding the pick cushioned between your folded up first finger & thumb,you can't do that.

CT may very well have changed the way he holds his pick 'now',but the way he hed it 'then' produced pretty good results to my ears,
Ivan

I've seen the video where Chris explains how to hold the pick "this way" and that was between his thumd and side of the first finger. How is the way he held it in 2004 different? It sounds the same to me...

[AndyPanda]

I've seen the video where Chris explains how to hold the pick "this way" and that was between his thumd and side of the first finger. How is the way he held it in 2004 different? It sounds the same to me...

In the videos where he discusses the "proper" pick grip, he has his middle finger, ring finger and pinky all supporting the first finger. In the 2004 video Ivan mentioned, he is doesn't have the other three fingers supporting.

[Jairo Ramos]

When I began to study my first plucked instrument (more than 40 years ago), the colombian bandola, an instrument of the family of the spanish bandurria, my teacher taught me how to hold the pick: between the side of the first finger joint and thumb. Since then that is the way I hold the pick. Maybe is the way to hold the pick in the spanish tradition...

That is the way I hold the pick since I began to study mandolin...but learning bluegrass, I noticed that american players hold the pick otherwise, "the standard pick grip". I tried to learn to hold the pick this way, but I gave up, maybe to old to learn this technique. Why to change if that way works for me? I have all the books of Jay Buckey, in Bluegrass mandolin I He wrote: "A plastic flat pick is held between the Thumb and Index finger of the Right Hand". Two photos in the book showed me that He holds the pick the same way as me...

[sblock]

When I began to study my first plucked instrument (more than 40 years ago), the colombian bandola, an instrument of the family of the spanish bandurria, my teacher taught me how to hold the pick: between the side of the first finger joint and thumb. Since then that is the way I hold the pick. Maybe is the way to hold the pick in the spanish tradition...

That is the way I hold the pick since I began to study mandolin...but learning bluegrass, I noticed that american players hold the pick otherwise, "the standard pick grip". I tried to learn to hold the pick this way, but I gave up, maybe to old to learn this technique. Why to change if that way works for me? I have all the books of Jay Buckey, in Bluegrass mandolin I He wrote: "A plastic flat pick is held between the Thumb and Index finger of the Right Hand". Two photos in the book showed me that He holds the pick the same way as me...

I think you may be confused bit, here. The "standard" pick grip used by so many players in American bluegrass IS "between the side of the first finger joint and the thumb"!! Specifically, the pad of the underside of the thumb touches the pick on its top side, and the side of the first finger in the vicinity of the last joint touches the pick on its bottom side. So these American players do not "hold the pick otherwise." They hold it the same way.

[sblock]

In the videos where he discusses the "proper" pick grip, he has his middle finger, ring finger and pinky all supporting the first finger. In the 2004 video Ivan mentioned, he is doesn't have the other three fingers supporting.

This depends what you mean by the word "supporting." Merely contacting the side of the index finger with the adjacent middle finger does not (and cannot) provide real mechanical "support" unless the middle finger actually serves to buttress the index finger ring during an upstroke, that is, unless it pushes directly up against it. But when the fingers of the picking hand are held loosely, as Chris recommends, this buttressing action does NOT occur. And if you look at the pictures posted for Chris, Dawg, Marshall, and others earlier in this thread, you'll see that the middle finger is held loosely (and it's fairly straight in 3 of 4 cases), and is therefore not in tight contact with the index. It is not "supporting" the index.

Put another way, in the standard grip, the pick is supported by one finger on its top side (the thumb) and by another finger on its bottom side (the index). Not by two on the bottom.

[AndyPanda]

On Chris' instructional DVD and also on a YouTube video, he specifically talks about keeping at least the middle finger (and preferably the ring and pinky too) against the first finger specifically to support the upstroke.

I'm the one that posted the picture of Dawg, Marshall and Chris with the other three fingers loose (to illustrate that sometimes they do leave them loose) but 99.9% of the time Chris has all four knuckles touching each other as he recommended in his instructional.

[sblock]

On Chris' instructional DVD and also on a YouTube video, he specifically talks about keeping at least the middle finger (and preferably the ring and pinky too) against the first finger specifically to support the upstroke.

I'm the one that posted the picture of Dawg, Marshall and Chris with the other three fingers loose (to illustrate that sometimes they do leave them loose) but 99.9% of the time Chris has all four knuckles touching each other as he recommended in his instructional.

Alas, what Chris Thile SAYS he does (and what he certainly thinks he does) and what he actually does are two different things! Funny how we can sometimes be wrong about ourselves, only to be brought up short by real-world evidence. Please check out Chris' right hand while playing a lovely Bach sonata in this video, for example. This recording is from 2013, and it's pretty characteristic of his recent (adult) playing. Look especially carefully at the tiny gap that keeps occurring between his middle and index finger, visualized as a slender dark region that extends from the knuckle area all the way down to the very base of the fingers, located right between the index and middle fingers. This dark gap is particularly evident in the video between minutes 5 and 7 into the video, but it's there throughout.

The presence of this recurring gap suggests that the middle finger IS NOT, in fact, pressing up against the index finger, and it is therefore not providing much, if any, support for the upstroke. That's a myth.

And it is definitely not the case that "99.9% of the time Chris has all four knuckles touching each other" in this video! There are gaps everywhere between his four knuckles, and you see these gaps quite clearly in the video. Chris holds a "loose hand", not a tight one!! Sorry to disagree, but the evidence is right there to see.

Incidentally, elsewhere in his instructional materials, Chris always emphasizes keeping a loose grip on the pick, and not a tight one.

[Jairo Ramos]

I prefer a graphic, my english maybe is not so good...

The first diagram is what I understand for "standard pick grip", the second and third photos is the way Jay Buckey and I use.

[sblock]

I prefer a graphic, my english maybe is not so good...

The first diagram is what I understand for "standard pick grip", the second and third photos is the way Jay Buckey and I use.

All three of your illustrations show the "standard grip." Photos two and three employ a slightly straighter index finger than the drawing of Figure 1, but this is a pretty trivial difference, and the degree of index bend depends on your hand shape, finger length, and so on. Notice that all three diagrams still sandwich the pick between (1) the fleshy pad of the thumb and (2) the upper side of the index finger in the region located at, and above, the first joint. The meat of the pick basically rests upon the final joint of the index finger, on its side. SAME GRIP.

There is another, different grip that holds the pick between the pad of the thumb and the pad of the index finger. A popular variation of this grip is to use the top side of the pad of the index finger, which keeps the index fairly extended at all times. Anthony Hannigan holds his pick this way, and so does Andy Statman (at least to some extent). And ditto for Jesse McReynolds' grip, which is quite similar, in that respect. Check it out here. Look especially at the closeup shown at 1 minute into the video, and you'll see he uses the pad of his index to grip the pick from below, and not the side! And yet another grip holds the pick between the pad of the thumb and the pads of the index and middle fingers, held together. None of these is the standard grip. But some players use it quite effectively, it must be said.

[Ivan Kelsall]

In the YouTube clip where Chris T. explains the correct way to hold a pick,he's explaining the 'classic' way to hold one - Jairo's ''Standard Grip' diagram above. I've seen diagrams showing that method countless times. It could very well be that CT has modified his grip since he became immersed in Classical music ie.his Bach recordings. There may be advantages in holding a pick that way for 'some' styles of music. It might work for some people,but i've tried it & it doesn't work too well for me. That's not to say that it prevents me from playing,it's simply not comfortable. Most of my 'picking power' comes from my fingers rather than my wrist,except when i'm playing 'chop chords',& holding a pick in the 'classic' way prevents me from doing that,i have to use my wrist or i just don't get much 'push' on the strings. So,i hold my pick in a ''similar'' manner to Jairo's
second diagram.

The first pic.shows what i term the 'classic' pick grip - note that the fingers are bent in towards the palm. The second pic.is how i hold mine.

If it works 'for you',fine,if it doesn't,''do it your way'' - it's still legal !,
Ivan

[MediumMando5722]

CT makes a big point of relaxing your arms and hands, and observing where they come to rest. It's going to be a little different for everyone. For instance, my fingers are more open than his when relaxed. I think the point is keeping everything loose and relaxed, so using your hand's natural resting position will maximize that.

[Ivan Kelsall]

From Chris above - "..using your hand's natural resting position..." . Absolutely - 'natural is it!. Forcing your hand into a position that's uncomfortable / unnatural is self defeating, & will work against what you're trying to achieve,
Ivan

[August Watters]

The first diagram is what I understand for "standard pick grip", the second and third photos is the way Jay Buckey and I use.

The third photo shows the pick pointed in the same direction as the index finger, with pick contacting finger below the knuckle. The first photo shows the pick pointed perpendicular to the index finger, with the pick contacting the knuckle on side of index finger.

Here in the USA we tend to say "standard pick grip" to mean the first way. But it's not "standard" outside of the USA, as Jairo has pointed out. I think it's good to get away from anecdotes about this or that player and how he/she does it, and look at the way things are usually done in various technical traditions. It's not unusual to find differences.

[sblock]

The third photo shows the pick pointed in the same direction as the index finger, with pick contacting finger below the knuckle. The first photo shows the pick pointed perpendicular to the index finger, with the pick contacting the knuckle on side of index finger.

Here in the USA we tend to say "standard pick grip" to mean the first way. But it's not "standard" outside of the USA, as Jairo has pointed out. I think it's good to get away from anecdotes about this or that player and how he/she does it, and look at the way things are usually done in various technical traditions. It's not unusual to find differences.

Your characterization of these grips has a lot that is correct, but it is not fully accurate. There are two distinct issues at play, here. First: You maintain that the key difference is that the tip of the index finger is either (1) pointing in a direction perpendicular to the line connecting the center of the pick and its point, or (2) is pointing parallel to this line. And second: Is the pick contacting mainly the side of the index finger, or mainly the pad of that finger? However, in neither grip is the index fingertip either perpendicular or parallel to the pick direction. So this is a faulty distinction.

Close examination of the last drawing in the first figure (which is the final grip) will show that the tip of the index finger is NOT quite pointing fully perpendicular to the line connecting the pick center and its point, but is, in fact, tilted slightly towards that line (making an angle of ~80 degrees). And the SIDE of the index finger is mostly engaged, and not the pad.

Close examination of the third photo will show that the tip of the index finger also is NOT pointing parallel to the line connecting the pick center and its point (as asserted). In fact, there's a nearly 45 degree angle between these vectors, and you can clearly see that the tip of the pick is NOT in line with the tip of the finger. The finger is curled a bit more back towards the palm. It does NOT make a 90-degree angle with the thumb. In addition, the bent index is mostly contacting the pick along its side, with only a tiny bit of the side of the finger pad engaged.

These two grips are therefore substantially the same -- not different. The index fingertip angle is from roughly 45 degrees to 80 degrees to the pick direction, and this angle will vary from person to person, with hand geometry. Importantly, they both involve holding the pick at the crook of a bent index finger, above the first JOINT, and engaging mainly the side of this index finger in the hold. The second example curls the index just a bit less and uses a tiny corner of the pad, but it still uses a bent index finger and its side, so it is not a fundamentally different grip. In fact, if you look at U.S. players who claim to employ the "standard grip," you will see a continuum of possibilities, all with slightly different degrees of bend in that first finger joint.

As discussed earlier, some fundamentally different grips, such as those used by Jesse McReynolds (also Anthony Hannigan an others), instead employ a full contact with the PAD of the index finger, and not by its its SIDE. Moreover, the index tip joint is kept fairly straight, and not bent.

[JeffD]

I think it's good to get away from anecdotes about this or that player and how he/she does it, and look at the way things are usually done in various technical traditions. It's not unusual to find differences.

+1

I am sure that the reason I can't play like Chris Thile, and never ever will be able to, has nothing to do with the gap or lack of gap between my knuckles.

Just sayin....

[sblock]

+1

I am sure that the reason I can't play like Chris Thile, and never ever will be able to, has nothing to do with the gap or lack of gap between my knuckles.

Just sayin....

Amen to that.

[WillHelton]

....The pick rests on my pointer finger's first joint from the fingertip, but that joint is open to about a 135 degree angle. Then the thumb covers most of the pick with just enough sticking out to play with (I use a large triangle shape thick pick). This way, the fleshy part of the base of my thumb does not protrude or get in the way of the bridge, though I may brush it lightly....

bratsche

This is my constant struggle. As Sam Bush has said, "I assume you've got to rest your hand somewhere" and for me, the most comfortable thing is to rest the the fleshy part of the base of my thumb slightly behind the top of the bridge, so I'm not dampening the strings.

That being said, when I play, my right hand does this very annoying bobbing in and out as I pick the strings. It's like the effort of playing / striking the strings is causing my hand to ricochet out and have to come back in to complete the next pick stroke. If I warm up/play for about half an hour, I seem to be able to limit this to a certain extent, but it's driving me up the wall: Each day when I pick up my mandolin to practise, it's almost like I'm starting over from square one again.

What I'd love to be able to do is play "through" the strings like Mike Compton or Chris Thile. It's like each of their pick strokes just cut through the strings and their hands remain perfectly up and down.

For the record, I tried positioning my hand like Mike Marshall (resting the fleshy part of my pinky side of my hand just behind the bridge), but found this was extremely uncomfortable and made the bobbing problem twice as bad.

When I'm warmed up, however, I can usually play pretty decently about about 195-205 bpm, so is it just a case of continuing to work at it and it will improve with time? I would have thought if the peculiarity of my technique was limiting, I wouldn't be able to play decently at those sorts of tempos.

Do others find any of this to be familiar?

Will

[Bill McCall]

In my struggle with bouncing, I was told to practice with rest strokes, down and up. It forces a strike through the string in both directions. Had that guidance from my teacher reinforced by John Moore in a workshop.

Do it every day. I use a web cam to check my hand movement while practicing.

[DavidKOS]

This is my constant struggle. As Sam Bush has said, "I assume you've got to rest your hand somewhere" and for me, the most comfortable thing is to rest the the fleshy part of the base of my thumb slightly behind the top of the bridge, so I'm not dampening the strings.

In the old Italian tradition the forearm was partially supporting the most-likely bowl back mandolin, but one did NOT rest the hand on anything.







Me decades ago

http://oobamandolintabs.com/beginner...sing-the-pick/

even with non-bowlbacks:

"The right hand should be free with no part of the hand or wrist touching the mandolin"

[WillHelton]

In my struggle with bouncing, I was told to practice with rest strokes, down and up. It forces a strike through the string in both directions. Had that guidance from my teacher reinforced by John Moore in a workshop.

Do it every day. I use a web cam to check my hand movement while practicing.

Thanks, Bill. I'll start doing that tomorrow morning!

Appreciated,

Will