Fourth Finger or not to Fourth Finger, that is the question

[scapier]

So I've been studying lots of the great players, and it seems there is a great divide between those who say the left pinky is a must (Thile, Marshall) and those who say they wish they'd use it but seem to play pretty darn well without it (Steffey, Reischman).

For example I'm looking at Steffey's solo in "No Place to Hide." In this excerpt he grabs the D I've marked with a '3' with a second finger, plays the lower G with a third finger and reaches for the B with his first finger, a bit of a reach.

Because I've been into Mair's choro book and studied Marshall and Thile, the logic would seem to be as I've marked it, the D with a third finger, the lower G with a fourth, and no reach at all to play the B with the first finger.

There does seem to be a tone difference, and I wonder if the brain prefers making decisions with three rather than four fingers resulting in a more solid and quicker player?

For me this is where mandolin technique has a big split between practitioners, as big as violinists in the classical world split between French and Russian bow technique.

Has anyone spent time thinking about fourth finger philosophy? Feel free to give me a hard time for being too precious if you think so!

Regards,

Spencer

[foldedpath]

I look at it from the fiddler's perspective, because the mandolin shares so much technique with the fiddle. Same scale, same string tunings in fifths. You won't find many fiddlers who never use their pinky, so that's a pretty strong hint that it's important.

If you ever play "fiddle tunes" on mandolin, which are almost all played out of first position, you'll need that pinky for the B note on the E string. That's the highest note in the vast majority of fiddle tunes, and your 4th finger has to be strong enough to hit that note as cleanly as every other note in the tune. That takes practice, lots of it. Once you can do that, you'll find other ways a strong pinky is useful, if not essential, for closed position playing further up the neck.

[Tobin]

I would definitely play that with my fourth finger, just as you have it marked. I often use my pinky at the 6th fret anyway, since it requires me to shift in order to get it with my ring finger.

I struggled with using my pinky for a long time, and tried to convince myself that I could get by without it (even though I knew I really ought to develop it). But moving over to the fiddle taught me a lot about developing the pinky, and now I see the wisdom in it. As far as I'm concerned, playing with 3 fingers may get you by, but you're only utilizing 75% of your available fingers. The pinky offers so much more range of coverage on the fretboard, especially when playing up the neck. It offers more versatility with chords and arpeggios. It seems rather silly not to use it.

[scapier]

I agree with you both, as I started with fiddle and moved to the mandolin in my late teens. That said, it does take more force to fret a pinky on a mandolin, and I wondered if, as upright players do, if it makes more sense to economize muscle use over dexterity. Intuitively I side with the four finger method but I see legend after legend leaving out the pinky, so there's got to be a good reason beyond poor technique, which no one is going to argue is the case with the likes of Bush, Reischman, Steffey.

[Mandoplumb]

If you are starting mandolin work on that 4th finger, as Tobin stated if you don't you are using only 75% of what is available to you. In my case I've been playing 50 years and have always used that 4th finger very little, started out on a POS that Hercules couldn't have noted with his pinkie, then as the mandolins got better I used my pinkie some, now authorities has limited movement and pinkie is most affected the others still are acceptable, and I'll keep picking as long as I can but I stress use it while you have it

[JeffD]

I don't think there is anyone who recommends against. Some, as pointed out, have managed pretty darn well without it, but that isn't a recommendation, that is a testament to their ability to work and develop around it. Its not something to emulate.

Might even make one feel worse, like: I don't use my pinky, emulating X, and even so I still will never be as good as X.

I think if we are going to emulate the habits of musical geniuses, we should all play like Kenny Hall, because I will never be as good as he was.

[Bill McCall]

Normal folks have to use the pinky, because we don't have hands the size of Mike Marshall and Adam Steffey. I saw Reischmann recently and he uses his pinky 'sparingly', because he's so smooth and quick at shifting, but he does use it depending on the passage he's playing. But he is typically using only 3 very strong fingers.

Fingerbusters has an exercise where the stretch is 2-8 fret, holding down the second fret. Not easy on the G string.

With my physique and lack of talent, I need muster every resource available, and had to work a lot at getting the pinky to reach that B note.

[T.D.Nydn]

Myself,,I try to use it as much as possible,,and even do specific exercises to strengthen it,,add flexibility,etc.

[Mark Gunter]

...so there's got to be a good reason beyond poor technique, which no one is going to argue is the case with the likes of Bush, Reischman, Steffey.

You mentioned Bush, here's part of the puzzle for you straight from the horse's mouth, so to speak.

[pops1]

I used it a lot playing guitar, I use it playing mandolin. Why would you not?

[Ivan Kelsall]

If you played guitar or banjo,you'd be hard put to play decently without using your little finger !. So - why not use it on mandolin ?. When i started out on banjo back in 1963,i had nobody to teach / show me, & nothing other than records to learn from,but it never entered my head not to use my little finger. Use it & get used to using it & you'll soon realise the benefits of doing so (IMHO),
Ivan

[Shelagh Moore]

I simply use what is most comfortable for any given piece, 3rd or 4th, and don't go by any particular convention.

[Mandoplumb]

I agree with you both, as I started with fiddle and moved to the mandolin in my late teens. That said, it does take more force to fret a pinky on a mandolin, and I wondered if, as upright players do, if it makes more sense to economize muscle use over dexterity. Intuitively I side with the four finger method but I see legend after legend leaving out the pinky, so there's got to be a good reason beyond poor technique, which no one is going to argue is the case with the likes of Bush, Reischman, Steffey.

I disagree, it is poor technique whoever does it. Those named have learned to work around it but they had to work harder when starting just as any one else that develops "bad" habits. Some may have a reason real or imagined not to use the pinkie but it is not good technique IMHO.

[Nevin]

Anyone who has listened to Django Reinhardt on guitar knows amazing things can be done without using all your fingers. I am pretty sure he used all his fingers when had the use of them. For me I would rather work on the technique of using something I have then try to make do without it. But then again I can use all the help I can get, including from my fourth finger.

[Ausdoerrt]

One important thing to note is that pinky vs open string sounds quite different. Extra shifts can also change the sound - it's up to the player to decide, which sound (s)he likes in any given situation. For example, I often forgo the pinky in favor of open strings in Irish reels to get that extra resonance and the extra harmonies it creates with the notes played right after.

OP's example is a different matter entirely, but personally, if that's a G#, then I'd play it as penciled in.

I look at it from the fiddler's perspective, because the mandolin shares so much technique with the fiddle. Same scale, same string tunings in fifths. You won't find many fiddlers who never use their pinky, so that's a pretty strong hint that it's important.

Sorry to nitpick, but the scale isn't quite the same - mandolin is a bit longer - plus the string tension is so much higher. That said, a lot of the technique does indeed carry over.

[scapier]

Thanks! He says live on stage he goes for power, which is the third finger, but he "should" use the pinky. This is the crux of it, I think. Should he really?

[JeffD]

I would never, ever, say what musicians as accomplished Steffey and Reischman do. Never.

The questions are, really - what can be considered "standard technique" and what should I be doing. Musical prodigies and geniuses get a pass to use any non-standard technique they want. It is still non-standard technique. They have just worked around it very well.

What our musical heroes do is not as relevant as what our hero teachers say to do, (Mike Marshall, Peter Martin, John McGann, etc.).

All of my thoughts.

[Jes Woodland]

I think its always useful to learn a skill,whatever it is,and then you have the choice whether to use it or not!

[JeffD]

I am 100% sure that Steffy and Reischman did not become great by avoiding pinky usage. I am sure they got there by working much much harder and longer than I do.

[DougC]

I laugh often at this sort of discussion mostly because I have been through it many times myself as well as with friends. It often comes down to hero worship vs the rest of the musical community that goes back hundreds of years. The other big aspect is that 'folk' technique is usually self taught, or worse; ineffective technique passed down from player to player. I look at the number of teachers throughout history and do what they say. My hero may have found a different way, but hey, I'm just a student. And the real 'technique' has been worked out by a lot of super human players and teachers throughout history.

[Randi Gormley]

When I was first learning on a bowlback (shorter scale), the pinky was a natural for the B. I even was developing a callous on it. When I switched to a more modern instrument, I found my pinky wasn't as easily used. I had to reach for it. And forget about the C. I might as well skip that note ... but I persevered and now I'm able not only to cleanly fret the B with my pinky, I can even stretch it to reach the C when I need to. I think it's just a matter of deciding to use it and practicing. My cousin, who took up the classical guitar about six or eight years ago, showed me the difference in her two hands when she stretched out the fingers. Her fretting hand stretched a good inch or two further than her right, from what I could guess. fwiw.

[Denny Gies]

Learning to use my pinky helped me a good deal.

[Steve VandeWater]

[Cosmic Graffiti]

I use my 4th finger all the time. I like the comment above: "Why would you not". My mind says that by not using it you are taking away 25% of your fingering technique. I wish I have one more finger to use.

[scapier]

I'm liking the discussion. I'm on board with the fourth finger, use it all the time, but I wondered if there was something unconscious going on with the great players that gives them greater success and tone with the three finger method. I've seen great session guitarists play all day using only three fingers, great mandolinists ditto. I wonder if it's something about improvisation is more fluid with one less finger to worry about?

When I look at a lot of players soloing they hang out in second position, grabbing that C with a third finger, dropping down to first only when they need to grab a B or an E. Has any one else noticed this?