Learning Bach's Chaconne, soliciting tips

[midwinterspring]

Hey folks. I hope you are all well. I'm hoping to get your feedback on the project that is currently taking up all of my non-working, non-sleeping time: Trying to learn Bach's chaconne from the 2nd violin partita. I'm as much of an amateur at classical music as I am at mandolin, so I know it's a bit silly to be starting on a piece like this, but I have a particular emotional attachment to this piece. So it's a lot easier to force myself to spend hours upon hours learning this than it is to practice anything else.

I thought I would post this now because I'm coming upon the (first set of) really hard parts, which I know will take me months or more to learn. And in the meanwhile I'll be playing these first 64 bars quite a lot. So I wanted to get your input in case you see anything I'm doing wrong that might become a bad habit as a result of repetition. Thanks in advance for your input.

[Ken_P]

That's a very good start! You've got the notes down, and a very nice tone throughout (that looks like a Big Muddy, right?). I have a couple suggestions, maybe of more of a musical nature that might help. First, pay careful attention to the descending chromatic scale in the second variation (starting mm. 17), I feel like while all the notes were there, that lower voice wasn't as connected they should be.

The next thing to watch for is the transition to the third variation (mm. 25). I feel like the tempo slowed a little bit here, and while you should certainly have some flexibility, I think maintaining a reasonably steady overall tempo is a good idea.

For the rest, I think I would focus on phrasing. Even in the single note passages, Bach is trying to imply multiple voices, so think about trying to bring those out. Starting in mm. 53, for example, you can see a bit of interplay between the lower voice playing arpeggios and the upper voice playing scale passages. Also, keep in mind that you should always be aware of where you are in the progression and what the bass note is, even if Bach doesn't always spell it out.

If you can't tell, the Chaconne is one of my favorite pieces, too, so I'm always excited to talk about it! Keep up the good work on the beginning, and good luck on going deeper into the piece!

[midwinterspring]

Thanks a lot, Ken. This is why I asked for tips! My knowledge of music theory is almost nil, so these are good pointers. In particular, I didn't catch the distinction between arpeggios and scales starting at 53. I will keep that in mind when I get back to it tomorrow.

[Werner Jaekel]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lpe7thXd69E

"Violinist Joshua Bell has said the Chaconne is "not just one of the greatest pieces of music ever written, but one of the greatest achievements of any man in history. It's a spiritually powerful piece, emotionally powerful, structurally perfect."" Wiki

Respect

[Jim Garber]

Not only is this a real challenging piece for violinists, I believe that, in part, it is even more difficult to pull it off on mandolin esp since the instrument lacks the sustain of the violin. The mandolin does have it chordally over the violin but the singing quality of the violin is superior and is especially pointed up in the Chaconne. OTOH why not try and, midwinterspring, I think your rendition certainly is presentable.

I would listen to some of the violinists and mandolinists on youtube. I am no Bach expert, but I especially like Hilary Hahn (at times her playing of it brings me to tears) and Joshua Bell's renditions. Alon Sariel and Avi Avital do some nice playing on mandolin IMHO. There are some others but not clean recordings on youtube that I can find. They are all, of course, different but you can take what you want, phrasing wise from each, I suppose.

[midwinterspring]

Jim, you're right, the piece certainly does highlight the beauties of the violin. But I think there is some potential for the mandolin. This gentleman does it quite wonderfully, I think:



And Hahn's version is quite beautiful, too. I've got that album. Though, for the reasons you mentioned about the instrument, I think her pacing makes her interpretation less practical for translating over to the mandolin. I think once I get the piece down more I will likely speed it up a little to avoid the mandolin's lack of sustain.

[Werner Jaekel]

If one is able to master the piece or not, in any case the persuit wil have a great beneficial effect for the musical ear and the musical brain.
When I study these classical scores it is like walking a beautiful garden. There is something interesting around each corner. I spot an interesting passage and take up the mandolin. I want these arrangements to be part of my routine, like riffs or arpeggios for standard repertoire.

https://musescore.com/ has some interesting scores.

Like this one

https://musescore.com/user/6105546/scores/2459141 Partita 2

Download mid and open score with tabledit for tab or notenames

[August Watters]

Worth exploring the other movements in the second partita as well -- the Chaconne is the culmination of all of those. Some are quite accessible, and beautiful with emotional depth. After many years I'm still finding new details in the Sarabande and Gigue, which I like to perform together as a pair.

[Ken_P]

Worth exploring the other movements in the second partita as well -- the Chaconne is the culmination of all of those. Some are quite accessible, and beautiful with emotional depth. After many years I'm still finding new details in the Sarabande and Gigue, which I like to perform together as a pair.

Well said, I quite agree. I find the allemande, while not very difficult compared to the rest of the suite, to be quite beautiful and rewarding to play. The corrente is also quite fun and a great workout if you take a brisk tempo.

Come to think of it, all the other movements of all the other sonatas and partitas are wonderful too. 😀

[Scot63]

I've been working on the Sarabande from this partita for a few months now, mainly inspired by Hilary Hahn's version (to underscore Jim and August) and also Grumiaux. Here's Hahn's clip on youtube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XbDedNsiVQk

[Tavy]

I thought that was very well played, keep up the good work and keep us posted!

[JeffD]

So it's a lot easier to force myself to spend hours upon hours learning this than it is to practice anything else.

You are doing GREAT.

I know the feeling, and I can see nothing but benefits to being passionate about the pursuit of great beauty. And I believe that what skills you gain doing this are immediately transportable to what ever genre you may in the future find consuming your passion. You are not wasting your time becoming too focused in a narrow area. Not at all. IMO whatever else you learn it is never a distraction to also be learning some Bach.

[Jim Garber]

Now, you got me going. First I wanted to know what exactly is a chaconne. Like many of the movements in Bach's S&Ps, it is a dance form. I believe it is usually in triple time and is not necessarily slowly played. Good article with many links to examples on Wikipedia. Here's a nice article on Bach's piece: The Story Behind Bach's Monumental Chaconne.

[bratsche]

A worthy endeavor, and a great start!

I've always considered this my favorite piece of music since first studying it as a twentyish violin student, but hearing it played beautifully by a classical guitarist was the primary inspiration that made me want to pursue a plucked instrument in the first place! It nagged at me until I was in my 40s and actually got my hands on one. Now in my 60s, I've -long- since stopped trying to do the Chaconne justice on a bowed instrument. But I love to play it on mandola!

Here is my favorite mandolin rendition:

[Beanzy]

The advantage of YouTube is you can set the speed to x2 to get a better idea of how it can go.

[Scot63]

Jim, thanks for the link above to that fine short piece on the Chaconne. Chazelle's description of the Chaconne as a "grieving dance" is exactly right, I think.

[bratsche]

The advantage of YouTube is you can set the speed to x2 to get a better idea of how it can go.

Whoa! I'll bet I'm the last YouTube user to know that you can even do that!

And if you slow it down to half-speed, you can distinctly hear each individual string get plucked. With the double courses, it kind of sounds like stuttering. I wonder why the sound doesn't play when you slow it to 1/4 speed?


bratsche

[Jim Garber]

And if you slow it down to half-speed, you can distinctly hear each individual string get plucked. With the double courses, it kind of sounds like stuttering. I wonder why the sound doesn't play when you slow it to 1/4 speed?

I heard the same thing. I wonder if those are just some sort of sound artifacts, not really the two strings separate. In fact I tried slowing down to 1/2 on a ukulele video and got the same echoing and distortion. Running it through Amazing Slow Downer does not do that and you can slow it down pretty much any speed.

[ukrobbiej]

Wow, that was great. The chaconne is a piece that has haunted me for years, and always will. I have dozens of versions of it- Nigel North on Baroque lute for instance, Tony McManus' wonderful steel string version, several classical guitar versions, as well as a number of violin performances. Each bring a different quality to this piece, which I could never tire of.

Your performance is very fluent, and you are obviously a great player. The only advice I would offer is to try to bring out some of the different voices a bit more. This is easier to do on mandolin than violin because you can let strings ring on, so try to hold on to some notes for longer to bring out that particular voice, and perhaps alter picking volume on some notes to be able to do so as well. Your phrasing though is terrific.

One last thing- if you ever play this live in public, don't make your mistakes obvious. When you played that slightly dodgy note (one out of so many is brilliant) don't shake your head! You are saying to the audience "look I made a mistake everyone" and you lose concentration.

Seriously though, these are all very minor points in what was otherwise a great attempt at one of the true masterpieces in the whole of music. Well done!

Robbie

[DougC]

Alon Sariel on mandola. Mandola! My new favorite thanks to Bratsche. The Chaconne is too long for me however. As a listener, I have to be ready to deal with it. It seems that it really drains my energy and emotions, in a good way, because I am 'hanging on every note' every nuance. Other pieces do this to me too. But this one, I don't think I'll ever try playing it. As if I'm good enough, Ha, ha.

And another vote for Hillary Hahn's version.(And Tim Fain on the link below, another great violinist 'find' wow. Thanks Jim Garber.) It seems that they put expression into every little note and it has voices of very different character in a conversation within the piece. Can you do this on mandola or mandolin? Alon Sariel comes close. I wonder if he has recorded it on mandolin?

[3step]

Alon Sariel on mandola. Mandola! My new favorite thanks to Bratsche. The Chaconne is too long for me however. As a listener, I have to be ready to deal with it. It seems that it really drains my energy and emotions, in a good way, because I am 'hanging on every note' every nuance. Other pieces do this to me too. But this one, I don't think I'll ever try playing it. As if I'm good enough, Ha, ha.

And another vote for Hillary Hahn's version.(And Tim Fain on the link below, another great violinist 'find' wow. Thanks Jim Garber.) It seems that they put expression into every little note and it has voices of very different character in a conversation within the piece. Can you do this on mandola or mandolin? Alon Sariel comes close. I wonder if he has recorded it on mandolin?

He has. No one did the phone video on this one, but the performance can speak for itself.

[bratsche]

Alon Sariel on mandola. Mandola! My new favorite thanks to Bratsche.

Um, that was a mandolin! That Kerman does look a bit large in the video, and has a lovely big, rich voice, but it's definitely a mandolin. You'd notice if it were a mandola because it would be in G minor, not D minor (and Kerman mandolas are very big!) The Chaconne on a mandola or viola has a whole different feel due to the lower transposition. I have trouble with it on a mandolin, but on a mandola I find it more accessible - maybe I'll record it some day. Easier said than done, I know. LOL

bratsche

[John Cadd]

To avoid distractions please notice the invitation to (+Reply to Thread ) above .
The mention of youtube speed controls fits what I discovered yesterday watching Alon Sariel recording Like most other (many) recordings the speed worked best at 50% .The opening notes need to be a statement with enough time for listeners to be able to savour what they hear.I played this a lot on violin and knowing the notes is only part of the process. Catering for listeners is a lot more tricky . Many famous violinists play fast music so fast it becomes a Bee in a Bottle effect . But this is not fast music .It still needs to allow listeners to emotionally react which is separate from noticing all the notes were played (even if ---"not necessarily in the right order" --Morecambe and Wise versus conductor Andre Previn .).
The opening recording was amazing as a learner without reading the music. I could never do that . At a Nigel Kennedy concert he was due to play Chaconne and he had the tattered remains of the music on the stand but said "I`m not playing That tonight". It was long ago when he was wearing a black suit with white shirt and bow tie . So he still owes me one .
Can anyone say they notice the sobbing effect in the first part of the Chaconne. You know what sobbing sounds like .A sharp intake of breath in between as a natural punctuation . I will tell you the notes if you don`t feel that effect . Some guitar transcriptions left that out completely . A clue is short scale runs down with isolated high notes . I drew a blank on a violin forum when I asked about that . See if you can find it . It works better if you have a bow .

[Marguerite]

Good luck!

[Jim Garber]

For those joining this thread today, please be aware that this thread was started 7 years ago and the last thread the OP posted on this site was in 2019. It would be nice to know how he has progressed on this piece. Who knows… maybe he will come back here to comment.