Which BG Breaks Are A MUST-LEARN?

[Mandoplumb]

I disagree with worshiping classic songs or tunes. The original are great, sometime the later ones are too. A matter of taste which you prefer but I would never try to do a tune exactly like the original. First there isn't one musician in a thousand that could so to attempt is an exercise in futility. Also in my opinion songs should be in the key the singers are confortable with. That can make breaks totally different, for the solution to that problem see above.

[ralph johansson]

It's been very long since i was seriously into Bluegrass - actually, on my first and only trip to the USA I suffered an overdose of it and never quite recovered. As I recall I mainly transcribed tunes. I found the tunes on Forrester's Fancy Fiddlin' Country Style particularly instructive in building a vocabulary from the combination of scale and arpeggio figures. Of course, in Monroe's music there was a strong element of blues and therefore I transcribed the intro to BG Pt. 1 - those four bars (he used the same intro on other tunes as well) pretty much summed up his approach, the alternation between outlining the harmony and superimposing the blues or minor penta scale over the chord. The rest was experimentation. I also transcribed a few of his instrumentals, like Rawhide - I heard a lot of notes that weren't really there, because I needed them.

I believe the last Monroe tune I transcribed was Jerusalem Ridge - maybe not note for note correctly, and, frankly, some of the detail doesn't really matter that much. Even today I enjoy playing the Watson Blues but to me it's just a sketch for your own interpretation and improvisation. You can find it on the Mando Hangout, where I post as Piotr. It shows my fascination with Watson's blues lick as I end the piece by playing it in three different octaves, on mandolin and two guitars.

But, really, copying someone else's solos? I pick the tunes I play (or compose) for their possibilities, in interpretation and improvisation. The old cats may not have improvised that much, but in, e.g., Monroe you can hear his solos developing over time. Even his whole conception of a song kept changing, esp. in the 40's to 50's when he kept moving the to higher keys. If there is a MUST I would say it's finding varied material, with different chord progressions.

[mandocrucian]

A whole lot of responses seem to miss the WHY of "Which BG Breaks Are A MUST-LEARN? "

There seems to be a lot of erroneous assumptions that learning those solos note-for-note are the endgame goal. Perhaps there are intermediate players who do have that goal, but, they are still intermediate players with the physical and mental "limits" of that level. But after another 10 years, they'll probably have an evolution of their views on all that.

The "MUST-LEARN" solos are etudes. (The list can vary depending on the player giving the recommendations) They are (hopefully) some of the best representations of the particular style(s)...of phrasing, and/or various playing techniques. If you are going to put in the time on some piece, you might as well spend it on something with a "A" grade instead of a C- solo. The fact is that you probably don't know or understand (now) WHY these are such good etudes, aside from your aural impressions. Someone can try to give you a technical explanation, but even if it's a good description, you probably won't really understand it until you've worked on it (the tune/solo) and absorbed it.

Etudes are portals/doors into rooms/corridors of advancement. But you won't know what's really behind "door #3" until you open it and walk through. Unless you're some prodigy Mozart, you're going to get where you need to go a lot faster by not trying to reinvent the wheel and maintaining a perceived purity of originality. (Let me ask you... how much easier did it get when someone showed you the pentatonic scales and some ways to apply it? And how loooonnng did you spend before that trying to figure it out on your own?)

Let me tell you, when you've learned all these must-learn etudes, and absorbed their lessons, it will become too much trouble to remember them exactly as time goes by, especially when you can substitute other bits and pieces which will work just a well. Of course, there are always certain breaks/tunes that you'll decide should be played note-for-note - that recorded bit has become another part of the tune.

Art students have to copy various famous paintings in art school training. Doesn't mean that is how their own art will ultimately look. It's part of learning by doing. It's just part of putting in those 10000 hours of practice.

Save the "STAY/BE ORIGINAL" admonitions for players beyond the 21 year mark. 21 years to become a piper: 7 years of learning, 7 years of practicing, 7 years of playing. Yeah, I know it sounds glib, but it'll make more sense the more years you have put in.

and finally, just so there's no misunderstanding - just because you are working on transcribed solos off recordings by other players, it's not an excuse to avoid making up your own tunes or your own solos/breaks. Those must-learn solos should be giving you new ideas and new twists to be applied to your own breaks or compositions.

Niles Hokkanen

[Ivan Kelsall]

From mandocrucian - " There seems to be a lot of erroneous assumptions that learning those solos note-for-note are the endgame goal.". Well,they might or might not be. It really depends on how you view the 'originals'. ''Some'' mandolin intros. / solos / instrumentals are so very good,that i really do try to 'copy them'. If i ever come up with something 'better' myself,then maybe i'll swap 'em out. However - learning some 'classic' mandolin pieces note for note can also be a starting point for one's own musical excursions. I did it for both reasons. I learned Ricky Skaggs' mandolin intro. to ''Walls of Time'' note for note until i could play it in my sleep,then i put my own bits into it - a tad more tremolo.

Whichever reason you do it for can only be fruitful if you put what you learned into your own style. Slavishly 'copying', other than to preserve a 'classic',doesn't cut it IMHO,
Ivan

[John Flynn]

Niles points are well taken. I think that makes a lot of sense if your goal is to become a good, well-rounded BG performer. That's not my goal and it may not be everyone's goal.

If I play BG, I do it for enjoyment. I come to BG from an Old-Time perspective, where the melody is king. When I do attend a BG jam, a break for me is an embellishment on the melody. MHO is that is only "C-level" if all you can do is C-level embellishments. I have never liked highly contrived BG breaks so there is no joy for me in playing them. I would rather play a B-level break that is mine and respects the melody than an A-level break that is someone else's and/or sounds like it could be part of a whole other tune. I think a great resource for my preferred approach is John McGann's "Developing Melodic Variations on Fiddle Tunes." Great stuff.

I had the privilege to study OT with Curtis Buckhannon for five years. While he is strictly OT, if you listen to his stuff, he embellishes constantly. What he does on a given verse of some of his OT recordings would make fine BG breaks of the kind I like.

I get what Niles is saying about "etudes," but I have this funny image of someone going up to Bill Monroe and asking, "Bill, could you teach me an 'etude?'" I gotta laugh at what Bill would have said about that! But seriously, etudes for me are not whole breaks. I hear a "particular sound" in a BG or OT tune that catches my ear. It might be a lick, or a technique. My "etude" is to work on just that bit, break it down, analyze it, play around with it and then incorporate it into my toolbox.

But then, I'm just trying to have fun with it. I use music to enrich my life in ways that work for me. I don't have any goal to reach some "level."

[jshane]

I heard a quote attributed to Bill Monroe if I remember correctly that you should learn everything everyone else is doing and then not do any of it. I agree with that. Why do a Monroe, or Lawson, or McRenoylds break, it's already been done. Even if perfect it's not yours. Music should express you, not mimic someone.

I was trying to sort out my reactions to the initial question, and the responses-- and THIS reply says it better than I am capable of. HEARING what a master player has done opens the mind, and learning to PLAY what they have done is good finger exercise, but ultimately, in my opinion, a break should be an Improvised expression of one's own creativity.

[T.D.Nydn]

You should want to express yourself through your music,,not express someone elses,,

[mandocrucian]

Every respected jazz instructor (Jerry Coker, David Baker etc. etc.) has advocated learning (and transcribing) solos played by acknowledged superior player. And there's the advice repeated by so many top players which in gist says... "Learn all you can from other people, then forget it."

Seems to me, that there's a whole lot of folks that would just prefer to skip over the "learn all you can" part and go directly to "forget it." You need to quit thinking about how you're going to play next week, next month or next year and think about how you are going to sound 10 years from now.

http://www.jazzadvice.com/10-brillia...arn-from-them/

http://www.jazzadvice.com/transcribi...ed-you-astray/

http://antonjazz.com/2012/07/transcribing-jazz-solos/

(oh wait..... maybe anything a high-level "jazz" or "blues" or "rock" player/instructor is totally irrelevant to "bluegrass" music? Excuse me. There ain't no jazz notes in BG)

[JeffD]

The "MUST-LEARN" solos are etudes.

Exactly.

There it is. Six words that say what would take me six pages!

So then its not what you think is cool or what you plan to show at the next jam, but what is important to in learning and understanding the genre.

[Manfred Hacker]

Mandocrucian: "The "MUST-LEARN" solos are etudes."

IMHO, some of the best "etudes" can be found in Mandocrucian's little book "Bluegrass up the Neck".

I have never transcribed a solo of the greats, but this book got me started into playing phrases that actually sound like Bluegrass - up the neck. Thanks for that!

[Pete Martin]

The reason you learn note for note solos is not to play them, it is to learn the LANGUAGE of the music you are playing. Every great player I've know can play several note for note solos from their favorite players. Once they get fluid in that language, they can interpret that language any way they want.

[tree]

I copy stuff because I can. It's fun, it's learning, and I like playing it. I've always had a decent ear and it feels like good exercise for my ear.

It absolutely helps me understand the instrument I'm playing - whether it's mandolin or guitar or singing.

I find it very helpful to try to learn good licks or solos from other instruments - banjo, fiddle (thanks Vassar and Bobby Hicks), piano, bass (thanks Sir Paul), flute, voice (thanks Skaggs and Rice), whatever.

If I'm gonna spend the amount of time practicing that it takes to improve, it really helps me personally to work on stuff that I like.

I will say that Youtube and mp3s make it SO much easier and more convenient than trying to operate the turntable with a pick in your mouth, hitting the right spot on the record, trying to listen to the part you want to hear, and trying to find the right notes while they're still in your head. You can repeat so many more times nowadays (with current technology) before getting frustrated by the process itself!

[AlanN]

Also, software like TablEdit can help on the transcription end and repetitive listening thing. I'm in process of building some exercises in T/E for a noted player/instructor who supplies handwritten tablature to his students. It makes the exercises much more official-looking and really takes the guesswork out of note durations, timing, etc.

[violinvic]

Must learn??? In my opinion, it depends a lot on who do you expect to be playing the tunes with. I knocked myself out learning Kentucky Mandolin in Gm. When it was my turn in a jam and said Gm, they looked at me like I had snakes coming out my ears.

[UsuallyPickin]

Well .... to learn to play you need to copy somebody's work ..... etudes by Bach .... haytudes by Tommy Jackson ..... whoever you decide to "pick" apart ...... do the drill learn the technical abilities needed then play as you will ...... the music you hear in your hear will slowly emerge... 10,000 hours , 21 years ... a lifetime ...play on