Onion vs. Shallot

[red7flag]

In a very interesting article describing what a Celtic mandolin is on NK Forster's website he has the following statement:
A “Celtic mandolin” tends to be shaped rather like an onion as opposed to American mandolins which are more like a shallot.”
Mr. Forster goes much further describing differences in tone-woods, bracing, carved vs flat tops and the like.
I would like to ask those that are familiar with both the Gibson and the Sobell inspired mandolins to describe how they contrast and compare. Thanks.

[Stephen Perry]

Really, there's no comparison between shallots and onions. Onions are coarse, strong, forming a substantial base for most dishes. In contrast Shallots are supple, subtle, and relatively mellow, perhaps less of a mixed bass through treble, more of a refined mid-range. For those into shellfish, the difference in sailor's mussels with shallots v. onions is striking. On the other hand, I never see anyone caramelize a shallot and then layer less cooked shallots over it!

I am thinking most of the "Celtic" mandolins I can think of are flat. The Sobell (I think, maybe there are 2 spellings) I have worked on are indeed more of an arched family with the differing attack and sustain characteristics typical of the body construction.

Although I would much rather debate cooking!

[HonketyHank]

Can you imagine Bill Monroe and 'shallots' in the same picture? All I can get is something like 'that there's the sorriest lookin onion I ever did see'.

[foldedpath]

I don't think there is any significant difference between those shapes (and I only play what might be described as "Celtic" music). More significant factors are the differences between flat top and carved arch top, bracing for either type, tonewoods used for the top, and the individual luthier's goal for tone.

I've heard video sound clips of NK Forster's instruments and they sound great. On the other hand, most of the mandolin players in the Irish/Scottish vein I listen to play Gibson-derived instruments, but I don't think that means anything. This music can work on anything that's playable with decent volume, so I reject the whole idea of a "Celtic mandolin." Some Cafe members here are even using National RM-1 resonators. Talk about non-trad!

Personally, I play a Gibson-derived F-style mandolin (Lebeda), which looks more Bluegrass than Celtic, but I like the way it sounds and I've never been kicked out of an Irish or Scottish session for having a silly scroll on top. With Irish/Scottish and related trad, it's more about getting deep into the music, than what specific instrument you're playing.

[derbex]

Well I have a Hathway and a Flatiron A with f holes. The Hathway is more onion shape, although not as much as some, but it's also a flat-top, round hole and I think cedar.

One big caveat with my impressions below, the Flatiron sounds quite different standing in front of it than it does playing it. I will tell you what I hear as I play it, but the brief times I have stood in front of it the A sounded brighter, louder and better balanced.

While the Hathway isn't as bright as many similar mandolins, such as the Fyldes I have heard, it's still much brighter than the Flatiron with more sustain and better balance across the strings, it also has less 'richness' (or is cleaner).

A Sobell is a different beast again, I have sat with Sobell and Weber OMs and would take the Sobell any day, although the rooms I hear then in are quite different so I would really like a fairer comparison.

[Bertram Henze]

It's onion vs fiddlehead fern.

[Timbofood]

Green bean v fiddlehead fern, Bertram.
It strikes me as kind of an odd statement, but, I like to cook. We should get together Stephen! Cocktails and some time in the kitchen!
"Take that saddle off the cook stove grandma, you're too old to ride the range!"

[Stephen Perry]

Green bean v fiddlehead fern, Bertram.
It strikes me as kind of an odd statement, but, I like to cook. We should get together Stephen! Cocktails and some time in the kitchen!
"Take that saddle off the cook stove grandma, you're too old to ride the range!"

I'm right near Gatlinburg, more or less, and always welcome the cookers. Outdoors in the summer, indoors in the winter. The workshop is 3 feet to my left and the kitchen 15 feet to my right! How about shrimp etouffee?

[Charles E.]

[QUOTE=Timbofood;
"Take that saddle off the cook stove grandma, you're too old to ride the range!"[/QUOTE]

Now that's funny right there.

[Timbofood]

Shrimp etouffe sounds dandy! I work the same way five grills outside, one old range inside, fridge nor freezer ever of sufficient size!

The quote is actually from the late great U. Utah Phillips, R.I.P.
When he used the line I passed half a cup of coffee through my nose!

[BBarton]

Onions versus shallots, hmmm... I have an old Gibson A4, a newer **** A5, and a Sobell (spruce/maple) mando, and they are all quite different. Compared with the vintage A4s and newer A5s (the differences between those styles have been well described on this site), the Sobell has a very bright, clear "ring" to it and much more sustain -- a "warmer, sweeter" sound. I love it as a solo instrument or in a small group, but prefer the projection of the A5 style at larger sessions (or defer to the tenor banjo!). Give a listen to some of Kevin Macleod's Scottish tracks posted on this site. Construction is quite different -- the Sobell has deeper, larger body and the carved top and bottom does not "flare" at the edges like the old Gibs. Also has a much wider nut. His mandolin style is designed as (sort of) a scaled down version of his OM.

[Bill Cameron]

I don't think there is any significant difference between those shapes (and I only play what might be described as "Celtic" music). More significant factors are the differences between flat top and carved arch top, bracing for either type, tonewoods used for the top, and the individual luthier's goal for tone.

I've heard video sound clips of NK Forster's instruments and they sound great. On the other hand, most of the mandolin players in the Irish/Scottish vein I listen to play Gibson-derived instruments, but I don't think that means anything. This music can work on anything that's playable with decent volume, so I reject the whole idea of a "Celtic mandolin." Some Cafe members here are even using National RM-1 resonators. Talk about non-trad!

Personally, I play a Gibson-derived F-style mandolin (Lebeda), which looks more Bluegrass than Celtic, but I like the way it sounds and I've never been kicked out of an Irish or Scottish session for having a silly scroll on top. With Irish/Scottish and related trad, it's more about getting deep into the music, than what specific instrument you're playing.

For me it's just got to be loud enough to hold it's own, in a one-mando section, with six or eight fiddlers. And do that while playing fast, which bluegrass instruments are designed to accommodate, so I find the bluegrass-style mando better for engaging with the Celts I run with...

[Bertram Henze]

... engaging with the Celts I run with...

[Stephen Perry]

I've been to Culloden, and across the kyles of lochalsh (not much of a ride at the turn of the tide). I'm an Atlantic Islander myself.

[Cheryl Watson]

I really tried to like the taste of fiddleheads, I do not, but I do like scrolls.