Is there such a thing as a "Mandolin Culture?"

[JeffD]

Another example is the RV world. There is a definite RV culture/community. There are also a lot of folks that go to bluegrass festivals and events in an RV, taking part in the bluegrass culture.

The two overlap and are not mutually exclusive. I know many of the folks at the festivals love also to show me their RV and talk trailers and campers and RVs.

[DavidKOS]

I sure find that there is a mandolin culture in terms of "the family of mandolin players", there is a sort of very loose fellowship among all of us that play the instrument.

But I also find that the "bluegrass culture" seems to heavily overlap mandolin culture and be so popular to the point that the f hole archtop mandolin is made in bulk in China.

Sometimes it's hard to tell the two apart!

[Dagger Gordon]

If there wasn't a website called Mandolin Cafe, I don't think I would have much 'mandolin culture' to speak of.

However in my own life, culture - and Scottish culture in particular - is absolutely fundamental, but this embraces much, much more than just music.
In my musical life I don't necessarily hang around with mandolin players all that much. It's much more likely to be players of other instruments.

However, I would say that the fiddle, accordion and piping worlds in Scotland probably do have their own cultures. It is largely a question of numbers, I suppose.
Having said that, I think you could possibly say that another minority instrument - the harp- has its own culture, with a Scottish Harp Festival and what seems to me to be a fairly close-knit and supportive community.

[UsuallyPickin]

We all kind of start either at or near the same place........ either we have a parent that loves music and gets us started or our own love that begins at our own time and pace. If we go about it in an organized manner it includes a teacher and lessons. This generally led to reading notation and classical pursuits. If music was approached on a more personal level recordings and jam sessions were the primary learning experiences. This led to "folk" styles which covers ground from blues to just short of jazz. In the last fifty years that I have been learning to play the learning opportunities have blossomed into a myriad of possible venues and a mountain of available material. Now any style can be learned anywhere in notation TAB or by ear. So cultures have become mixed to say the least. Musicians will always be players and people. As such they will have music they love to play and music they play either for money or because others love it and they just want to play along. Sooo IMO music is the culture not the instrument one chooses to express their love / interest. The first musician was a singer the second ...... a drummer? .....R/

[FLATROCK HILL]

...What I am really getting at is there any thread other than the mandolin (or any shared instrument) that connects players of different genres...

To this question, I would answer: "Friendships and other similar interpersonal relationships such as family".
My biggest exposure and connection to musical genres other than the ones in which I normally participate, is due to a voluntary gesture on my part.

And I'd say that the reciprocal is true also. My family and/or friends who might prefer to play Classical will, on occasion participate in the Bluegrass music I love. The thread that connects the two genres is the relationship between the musicians.

Not sure I'm giving you any satisfactory info. I'm sure though that this question and the question in the thread's title are not the same question.

[sblock]

If there wasn't a website called Mandolin Cafe, I don't think I would have much 'mandolin culture' to speak of.

However in my own life, culture - and Scottish culture in particular - is absolutely fundamental, but this embraces much, much more than just music.
In my musical life I don't necessarily hang around with mandolin players all that much. It's much more likely to be players of other instruments.

However, I would say that the fiddle, accordion and piping worlds in Scotland probably do have their own cultures. It is largely a question of numbers, I suppose.
Having said that, I think you could possibly say that another minority instrument - the harp- has its own culture, with a Scottish Harp Festival and what seems to me to be a fairly close-knit and supportive community.

I conclude from what you wrote that there may not be much of a mandolin culture over there in Scotland. But there is most certainly a lively mandolin culture on this side of the Pond! And that culture revolves chiefly around American traditional (oldtime) and bluegrass music, playing carved-back mandolins, with some American jazz and blues thrown into the mix, as well. And there is also a mandolin culture on the Continent in Europe, which includes classical traditions involving bowlback mandolins, particularly in Italy and Germany. And there is something a small mandolin culture in Ireland, as well, as the mandolin is increasingly being included in ITM ensembles. And let's not forget the bandolim culture in South America, either, and Choro music.

I disagree strongly with the proposition that there would not not much of a mandolin culture without the Mandolin Cafe. To me, this is absurd. That is not to slight the MC in any way, shape or form, nor the invaluable and enduring contributions made to our culture by the website admin, Scott Tichenor. But if the MC did not already exist, then someone else would invent something like it! The mandolin musical culture comes first, and the website second -- to support it -- and not the other way around. And together, these synergize to keep the culture alive and vibrant! But realize that there are thriving guitar and banjo and fiddle cultures, as well, here in the U.S., and each of these has its own websites, festivals, and so on.

But ultimately, "mandolin culture" revolves around ensemble playing with other instruments. That might mean in a mando orchestra, but much more often, it's in a small group with other types of instruments -- i.e., mingling with other "cultures". There are few mando soloists, after all.

[Dagger Gordon]

"I conclude from what you wrote that there may not be much of a mandolin culture over there in Scotland. "

Yes, that's true.


"I disagree strongly with the proposition that there would not not much of a mandolin culture without the Mandolin Cafe. To me, this is absurd."

I didn't mean to suggest that.

[Elliot Luber]

I think that it's more of a community than a culture... various communities, geared towards specific interests. I think when I use the word culture, I tend to not limit to a given instrument but rather the varying styles. There's a culture of bluegrass festival goers, there's a culture of classical music, there's an acoustic music culture (all with overlaps) but I don't see them restricted to a specific instrument. The only culture that really sticks out to me, within the larger group of musicians, are the guys that love sawdust and solder and don't just play.

Yes, I see it as a community that falls all over the spectrum between classical and bluegrass cultures (and others). Some feel comfortable in both worlds and some don't.

[Elb2000]

I think there may be a significant difference in perspective based on playing skill level. I started playing mandolin as my 1st instrument 5 years ago at about age 55. I can now read music and play in bluegrass jams, but would not seriously consider playing in a classical mandolin group. I’m not a fan of ‘traditional bluegrass’ either, but consider my (more introductory) jam groups fairly open to different music styles and a good functional approach to both practicing improvisation as well as playing with others. I don’t have a lot of other music style group playing experience, but I perceive other style playing groups to be either less focused on improvisation or having a more narrowly focused music style.

[Bob A]

Subgroups of mandolin communities are brought together by internet connectivity. This is a recent phenomenon, which was approximated in past by print media, but certainly not to the extent now seen. The print folk were more narrowly focused on particular musical styles. The pressure of marketing for the purpose of commerce - selling mandolins - had some effect, as it did with other groupings of instruments. However, this didn't seem to encourage any blending of styles or other cross-fertilising.

Another aspect of "communities" is the effect of entropy. The Neapolitan mandolin tradition was effectively destroyed by Benito Mussolini, who disliked the existence of groups of musical idlers hanging around, while there was work to be done transforming the Italian culture into a productive Fascist state.

[Jim Imhoff]

Wow, this is great! THANKS to all of you, especially the critics.
I need to clear up some things intentionally left fuzzy in my initial post. First "research"--some people think of research as going to the library (old school!), or looking up on the internet. Others think of serious research as setting up a study with controls and clearly defined measures (that's quantitative research). I am looking into a qualitative study, where you talk, interact, probe, change the original question as it evolves, and then analyze what people do and say.
So for those of you who think I asked the wrong question, or asked the question wrong, you would be perfectly correct-- if it was my "research question." It was unfocused and poorly defined; but it got a much more interesting and varied response than I had expected. And it will help me refine and focus the actual research questions in my study.
In this thread I see posts that completely disagree with each other, posts that get other people thinking about what other people are thinking, and posts that gave me thoughts I hadn't thought. For those of you who thought the answer was obvious, look at the range of replies! I will be asking permission from some of you to quote and cite ("personal communication" 2017, or maybe Mandolin Cafe 2017), You gave me great material to write about the point of my study--the rationale. And my research question, the heart of the study, will be much more clearly defined and focused thanks to your input.
Maybe I played with some of you at CMSA Valley Forge, and maybe I will see some of you at Wintergrass, Bellevue WA: A perfect example of the mix-- the theme is "Bluegrass to Bach" and intensive classical workshops with Mike Marshall and Catherina Lichtenberg (hope I spelled it right).
Thanks again,
Jim, from Portland OR

[Jim Imhoff]

A historical aspect of which I was not aware--thanks! The historical development of "mandolin music" --literature or repertoire, as well as the shape and form of the instrument: I wonder if these are part of a "culture." But I am afraid that would be a whole different (and equally contentious) thread. By the way, the whole High School Band movement was started for commercial purposes after WWI when all the military band instrument companies needed and new market. That might have been the near-death of the mandolin orchestra.

[Astro]

Culture? For musicians ? HaHaHaHaHaHaHAburpHaHaHAHaHa

Cultured is what you call the people who pay for the tickets to listen to the musicians.

[JeffD]

Keep in mind that the mandolin is such a minority instrument. There are likely many more left handed flat pickers than mandolinners out there.

Well I have no data to support that but it seems likely to me.

So when we see a bird of our feather, we notice.

[Jim Imhoff]

OK, but would you consider "The Mandolin" to be such a case? As opposed to the musical styles and traditions--bluegrass, classical, swing, choro, etc... What would be the "art form?" Music, the instrument ... these could be dumb questions, but I just want to get people's thoughts, even if it's "that's a dumb question!"

[Jim Imhoff]

Good analogy--I was at my RV service place and looked though a magazine, and I realized it was "Motor Homes," NOT "RV's" there were no trailers or cab-overs. Snobs! Elitists!
And we love checking out our neighbors at he fests. Thanks!

[Austin Bob]

One thing I've not seen mentioned is the part that language plays in all of this. History is ripe with examples of different classes of people speaking different languages within the same communities, often as a way to promote and encourage class distinction.

This was often observed when a country sought to colonize another. Only the select few would be taught the language of the mother country, thus making it easier to keep things under control.

We have that same dichotomy in music, a classically trained musician will illustrate a thought or phrase differently than one who learned though the oral traditions. I don't think it is done for the same reasons (that of subjugation), but the effect can certainly be the same.

[Jeff Mando]

No

Best answer!

[Charlieshafer]

If there wasn't a website called Mandolin Cafe, I don't think I would have much 'mandolin culture' to speak of.

I'm not so sure this isn't far from the truth. I know others will disagree, but what a site like this does is mix ALL the mandolin players of all styles of music together. While mandolin playing bluegrass festival goers will certainly mix with other mandolin players there, the cross-pollination of styles would be greatly reduced. Same with ITM, or any other genre-specific meeting. And, for example, I could never have some give and take with players from the west coast, or those living across the pond. That's pretty big. I might never have known about some of the obscure players playing odd stuff, that are really great musicians.

The internet really has changed everything, especially for the younger players who grew up being exposed to virtually everything out there. It's also interesting that sites for other instruments don't seem to have the dedicated following this one does. There's some sort of lightening-in-a-bottle going on here, which really works to mandolin players benefit. Would another site have been able to achieve the same sort of diverse-yet-cohesive group? Not too sure.

[Mandolin Cafe]

I've always been under the impression, based on 21+ years of running this site, that there are aspects of the mandolin world that make it inherently different from other stringed and fretted instruments in regards to community.

Of course every type of music genre and instrument has that subset of their community--I call them "flamekeepers"--that see it as their public duty to "protect and defend" their chosen style. This is the "That ain't bluegrass!," "that's not old-time," "that's not a REAL classical mandolin," crowd, yadda yadda. Want to see feathers ruffled in the mandolin world? We're not immune. Toss the name Richard Smith out to Bill Monroe devotees. War, bloodbath, public attacks, snubs, backs turned. Unbelievable, the vitriol. Plenty of it to be found right on this forum. But beyond that? We're a bit different.

One of the great things about mandolins is that--and some will argue--that style is not really tied to the type of instrument, with some exception for bluegrass, and I suppose for classical music but only in Europe. Most of the great jazz mandolin players alive right now are playing instruments considered most widely used for bluegrass. Don Stiernberg, Paul Glasse, Aaron Weinstein, Joe K. Walsh, David Grisman, Mike Marshall. Many more. Jethro spent most of his career playing mandolins thought best for folk or bluegrass.

The F-5 and the early Gibson line was originally intended for classical and orchestral music. Plenty of great musicians are playing classical on what some consider bluegrass instruments: Evan Marshall, Mike Marshall, Chris Thile, Brian Oberlin, the U.S. mandolin orchestras are full of them. Even the great Israeli players, and there are a number of them, are playing instruments traditionally not found in the German and Italian schools where bowlback mandolin reigns, and probably always will.

What makes mandolins different is two things: 1) the instrument is really not that popular. Yes, that's me saying that. The relatively small size of the community makes for better neighbors. Compare to guitar or piano. What all-for-one community? 2) Mandolins are somewhat generic. You can play choro on a bowlback (so says Carlo Aonzo, Caterina Lichtenberg and others). Most jazz mandolin is played on F-5s or A model acoustic mandolins thought more for folk & bluegrass. Imagine a classical guitarist premiering with the New York Symphony showing up with a Martin D-35 or archtop Gibson. Imagine a guesting classical violinist showing up to a major orchestra in concert with a bizarre hybrid model that didn't fit the classical paradigm. Wouldn't happen.

Also, the size of the guitar and violin world is such that there's no need for one community, and it's just too large to make it one. Punk guitarists don't hang out online with classical, nylon string guitarists. Classical violinists at the upper end will not be found on an old-time fiddle site often. Sure, exceptions to everything, but the mandolin has less of that than other instruments. Banjo, you say? Don't dare get between the hard core clawhammer and 2-3 finger resonator crowd. Apples and oranges, it's ugly, I've seen it. The flatpicking and bluegrass guitar crowds don't have this kind of community. Nor does banjo or fiddle. And bass? Who knows...

So, I say the mandolin community is different, but it's not really that mandolin players are a different breed. We're a bit surrounded by the instrument itself, its versatility and the simple fact that you really can play any kind of music on one. It's a great vehicle, and I think its unique nature and somewhat lack of respect in the larger music world makes for a more coherent community.

[Jim Imhoff]

To the guys who posted "NO." and "best answer:"
Maybe, but I wasn't looking for an answer: I was looking for thoughtful comments and even arguments. Don't see that here.

[Jim Imhoff]

This is the kind of thought out critical response I was looking for--THANKS! I am careful about a clique thinking they have something unique and special (nearly every group does), but you lay out some specifics that support such a concept for the mandolin world. A few other people posted about similar off-beat instrumental families, accordian, ukelele and such. And I hadn't thought of the A's and F's as being so tied to a style, but often used across genre. Another thread might be about the historical development of the different branches, Italian bowl-back, Loar F5 and so on. That might tie into my question about a culture, but a bit off the pth of my proposed study. This thread has given me a lot to work with--many thanks and respect!
jim

[Jim Imhoff]

That's a great line of thought (and linguistics was part of my doctoral dissertation). That colonial effect had a sort of static effect as well among the colonists. "L'Algiers est la France" was the cry among French colonial ex-pats in Algeria when France "abandoned" them and granted independence. They (the colonials) believed were the only "true" French. I also read that when Scottish musicians wanted to revive the old traditional styles, they went to NOVA Scotia in Canada, because the "colonials" tended to hold fast to old ways, whereas the homelanders evolved in a more natural way. When I did French Renaissance music with a choir, I learned that Quebecois was closer to "old" French than modern Parisian. Very helpful post--thanks!

[DavidKOS]

1. Of course every type of music genre and instrument has that subset of their community--I call them "flamekeepers"--that see it as their public duty to "protect and defend" their chosen style. This is the "That ain't bluegrass!," "that's not old-time," "that's not a REAL classical mandolin," crowd, yadda yadda.......

2. One of the great things about mandolins is that--and some will argue--that style is not really tied to the type of instrument, with some exception for bluegrass, and I suppose for classical music but only in Europe. Most of the great jazz mandolin players alive right now are playing instruments considered most widely used for bluegrass.
......


3. The F-5 and the early Gibson line was originally intended for classical and orchestral music.
.....


4. What makes mandolins different is two things: 1) the instrument is really not that popular. Yes, that's me saying that. The relatively small size of the community makes for better neighbors. Compare to guitar or piano. What all-for-one community? 2) Mandolins are somewhat generic. .... instrument itself, its versatility and the simple fact that you really can play any kind of music on one. It's a great vehicle, and I think its unique nature and somewhat lack of respect in the larger music world makes for a more coherent community.

These 4 points are worthy of note. I need say no more.

[MandoAblyss]

As the cellist said in the David Wallace Berklee strings community video: I play mandolin. And I play music.

Thanks for that link!