Play Every Note?

[dorenac]

As an older retirement age mandolin player I find it takes a long while to play a tune fast, or perhaps up to speed. Not getting started into the mandolin like so many of the young, talented musicians on the scene or coming up, I spend a lot of practice time working a song or tricky portions of a song over and over at slow tempo. Eventually I get faster. My question is do players start leaving out a note here, a note there in order to pick faster? When in a jam session I find that I must do that in order to keep up with the crowd. Again as I really get a tune under my fingers I often can add omitted notes back in. In a jam I'm not sure anyone ever notices notes left out anyway as there is so much going on. Soloing is different, but soloing permits variations and experimentation. As an example there's a transition part in "Indiana Firefly" that is a run of notes between two sections. I delete several of those notes and try to give the impression of running up the neck to the C part. Suggestions and comments welcomed.

[Steve Repinec]

I play in a jam every week and we have a couple of fiddle players who play extremely fast. I concluded that I may never be able to pick some of the fiddle tunes that quickly so I practiced versions that are easier to play at fast speeds. Much better than crashing and burning on a break.

[Phil Goodson]

I think you are doing what most of us do. You play the music as accurately as you can and keep up with the time and rhythm of the music. That's called making music. Good job! We all want to get all those little nuances in there, but unless you're very talented or experienced, it's not always going to happen. Make the music and have the fun!

If it makes you feel better, just listen to Monroe and other great players. They don't all play the same notes or the same number of notes.
In the end, we're all often playing notes that remind the listener of a tune that he once heard and now has some memory of inside his head.

[Beanzy]

Play the tunes. Not all the notes are the tune. Many folk genres use standsrdised fills and variations which get dropped in to become part of a progression, but they merely get you between parts of phrases in the tune. If you focus on the tune you then have the pillars between which the filligree of notes are draped. If you listen to any of the big names in fiddle playing they make the tune go fast but they often shed the decoration unless it is at key points which give the tunes their identity. Bill M was a great one for remaining on one note with the same note rhythm where a fiddler would have done trills or similar. Nothing would be sacrificed of the tune or the drive but when something had to go it would often be note changes.

[foldedpath]

I'll sometimes skip notes in a fiddle tune at a fast Irish/Scottish session if I can't hack it. Usually it's a tune where I can handle the main melody with no problems, but there is a brief fast run in it somewhere that's a bit beyond my ability at the current tempo. Some Scottish strathspeys are like that, with quick little runs that can be a bear to pick on mandolin when a session gets rocking in tempo.

Another example would be "Campbell’s Farewell to Red Gap," a common fiddle tune with a quick ascending run at the end of the tune. At any "normal" tempo I can play that, but there are some sessions where the group gets carried away and I just fake my way through it. It might depend on whether I'm on my second or third pint of Guinness when that tune comes around.

There is a difference though, between dropping notes like this intentionally because you know they're about to come up, and dropping notes because your'e trying to play them anyway and can't manage it. That's a bad habit. It can throw off your rhythm as you try to catch up after the tricky bit. Keeping a good solid rhythm pulse is essential. So if you're dropping notes, make sure you do it intentionally and don't lose the rhythm. What Steve mentioned above, about practicing a shorthand version ahead of time is a good way to handle it.

[Bertram Henze]

My ITM recipe:
Step#1 - play the notes that make the tune recognizable
Step#2 - add anything that makes it sound interesting to prove it's not played by a computer (aka ornaments)

Often, what I find transcribed into notation or tab is somebody else's recipe built on a completely different instrument, so my first action is always stripping it down to Step#1 and go on from there. That's the good thing about tradition: you get to cook your own breakfast.

[UsuallyPickin]

Everybody slows down over time. Keep the ornamentation simple. As stated above you play the melody and work out those add on triplets and quick runs you can play them when and if you can use them. The best news about that is that those phrases and ornaments have good legs and can travel form one place to another well. R/

[Andy Miller]

Many great players "ghost" well-chosen notes to be able to play the tune in a more musical way overall. Better to do that and sound good than to be stubborn and lose your tone and timing and dynamics over it!

[Mark Wilson]

I'd rather skip a note in a sticky phrase and no one know it - than always trip up the phrase and everybody know it

[peterleyenaar]

When songs are played (too) fast , they lose musicality, when songs are played stupidly fast , they have no musicality at all, songs often have the cadence of speech , when speech is stupidly fast , no one can hear what is said.

[mandomurph]

When songs are played (too) fast , they lose musicality, when songs are played stupidly fast , they have no musicality at all, songs often have the cadence of speech , when speech is stupidly fast , no one can hear what is said.

Right! I like to keep fiddle tunes to a dancing tempo. That's what they were written for,
supposedly.

[Fretless]

Many great players "ghost" well-chosen notes to be able to play the tune in a more musical way overall. Better to do that and sound good than to be stubborn and lose your tone and timing and dynamics over it!

I remember way back when I started on fiddle again after decades of not playing I met up with a great group of oldtime players who invited me to their weekly jam. Most of the tunes were nice and simple, played at a leisurely pace but a few - St. Anne's Reel comes to mind - had little arpeggiated parts that my fingers constantly tripped over. Trying to squeeze them in when I wasn't yet able to just messed up the tune.

Eventually I gave up and threw out a few of those notes and what I discovered was the tune could still sound musical - it was all in what you did with the notes you did use. If that makes sense, lol. A couple years back I found an Internet radio station that played an hour or so of St. Anne's by various people, mostly Métis musicians. It was amazing hearing all the different ways the same tune could be played while still keeping the same melody. What stood out most was the rhythm the musicians brought to it no matter how many or how few notes they played. Rhythm really is the king in fiddle tunes.

These days I mostly play Scottish, Cape Breton and Irish tunes, each of which come with their own little complicated bits. My playing has improved so I can keep up now but sometimes I drop a few notes just for the fun of it. I've learned that it's okay to leave out a note here and there as long as the integrity of the tune is preserved. The only difference is now I do it by choice rather than need.

[catmandu2]

... it's okay to leave out a note here and there...

I much prefer to hear "too" few than "too" many..

Maybe it's age...I heard someone say - their poetry is becoming increasingly smaller and sparser.. Seems right.

[Jim Garber]

I am also a fan of moderate tempi — danceable, swinging, melodic that feels right. In one of our largely OT jams we often speed up. I try to hold down the tempi but it is not easy.

Also, I don't know if this is true for everyone but I find it easier to play fiddle fast vs. mandolin. I never used to play mandolin in large sessions for two reasons: that I could barely hear myself and that we would end playing super fast. OTOH I love playing OT tunes (and others) on mandolin in a small group or by myself. Lately, I have brought my National RM-1 and that works nicely to at least hear myself. I can keep up on mandolin at breakneck speed but lose the accuracy.

As to the OP's first post: it is fine to play a sparser version of the tune. I, too, sometimes prefer that tho I will also add variations: different notes, additional notes and double-stops or drones against open strings.

[catmandu2]

Wrt variation -

Sometimes, if you leave out some of the notes, you can find inspiration for rhythmic play/variations - through alterations in phrasing .. so even playing fewer notes can lead to more variations. This is especially easy to achieve when you think in terms of - what to leave out..

*or I should say - "altering phrasing through rhythmic variation.."

[Mike Snyder]

I play frequently with readers. Even when they have a tune in memory, they need the notation as a security blanket. Some of them get attitude about ear players who deviate from the notation. I have quit (in frustration) trying to suggest that most of the tunes came from aural tradition. We're talking ITM, old-time and some contadance. Some Cajun, various east European and Klesmer creeping in, to my delight. When the author is right there on the page, OK, I understand. There are writers in the group and I do my best to honor the tune as written. The old time tunes are open to interpretation, in my mind, and that's how I play them. So I am the anarchist, and I embrace that with passion. I'll simplify a tune in order to give it some lift and a good dance tempo. If I should feel bad about altering a tune for fun, then I'm missing something. The clincher for my close friends who dislike my "infidelity" is when they call a tune and it is clear that they intend to play every note as written. I'll sweat bullets listening HARD and laboring to get it right because it's important to them and I love them. Usually it sounds plodding and stiff, but the joy for them is the knowledge that they played it "right". Funny thing; When I call a tune and we play it with fire and stomping feet and the flat foot dancer is dripping sweat, that's the tune where everybody is whooping and hollering after we end it. Joy is where you find it.

[John Flynn]

Miles Davis said, "Don't worry about playing a lot of notes. Just find one pretty one."

[Ivan Kelsall]

All of the instrumentals that i've learned have been from recorded versions that i learned by ear. I try to play them as i heard them - every note !. However,if i'm in a jamming session,then regardless of how many versions of any particular tune/song i've heard,i generally wing it unless i decide to play a well known 'standard' such as say, Herschel Sizemore's "Rebecca",
then i play it like i heard it - or try my very best to do so !.

I've spent the last few years learning how to back up,accompany a tune & to come up with a decent break 'on the fly' as you would do in a jam session. I don't go much for over elaborate breaks,i much prefer to play as 'melodic' a break as i can as tunefully as possible,that's one reason that i don't care for really fast tempo tunes. The tempo of a tune such as ''Big Mon'' is quite fast enough for me, & in reality,most songs/tunes are slower than that. I like tunes slow enough to give you time to think of your 'own bits' & to get them out there onto the mandolin,
Ivan

[Bertram Henze]

I play frequently with readers. Even when they have a tune in memory, they need the notation as a security blanket. Some of them get attitude about ear players who deviate from the notation. I have quit (in frustration) trying to suggest that most of the tunes came from aural tradition.

So very sad. Has anybody of those ever been to Ireland? And if yes, are they saying the Irish are doing it wrong?
I'll quote again that Irish saying here: To know beauty one must live with it. Reading is not living. Playing ITM from reading is like karaoke, mimicking the music but never touching it. Safe but pointless.

When I gig with my wife, we often get asked how we can do all that without sheet music. I always answer "Can you sing Happy Birthday? Do you use sheet music? Why not?"

[Charlieshafer]

So very sad. Has anybody of those ever been to Ireland? And if yes, are they saying the Irish are doing it wrong?
I'll quote again that Irish saying here: To know beauty one must live with it. Reading is not living. Playing ITM from reading is like karaoke, mimicking the music but never touching it. Safe but pointless.

I have to say, this sort of I.T.M. police is no better than the bluegrass police. Who cares if they use the sheet music? Do they miss a little nuance? I'm sure they do. Does it matter? No, they're playing music, which is a lot better than not playing. Players with a classical background are used to using the sheet music as a jumping-off point, going over the music time and time again, making little changes in the bowing or phrasing, and then, after a considerable length of time, and if they're soloists, going at it without music. If they're in the orchestra, they use the music primarily to keep track of where they are. It's easy to get lost in a 20 minute piece, where you may not be playing for minutes at a time, but need to come in at exactly the right place.

It's a habit and a way of playing they've developed, so if they're comfortable joining in that way, the more the merrier. Once everyone starts chasing off players who need to read music, you'll find an ever-shrinking size of sessions or jams, especially with the really young ones, who you'd like to encourage to keep the music going. If they're learning Suzuki or a classical method that requires reading music, let them use the sheet music if it makes them more comfortable. I'd rather have more people enjoying the music than being shamed away from trying.

This idea that learning or playing by ear makes you more musical is trash. I've heard some pretty rotten players who swear by that dead horse of a concept, and some beautiful players who spend a lot of time on the sheet music. Some people are simply more capable of playing musically than others, regardless of background. The people I've known personally who insist on the playing-by-ear-thing are so obviously interested in forming their own little exclusive club that they're stunned when no one really wants to join.

[Randi Gormley]

Charlie, I think you may have misread, a bit, what Mike was saying and what Bertram was replying to. Not that they play from the dots, but that they get angry when someone deviates from the dots. It's kind of the reverse what you've described -- the sheet music people criticizing the ear-learning people because there's variation, even in the ornamentation.

In my group, we've certainly had our share of people who will get amazingly bent out of shape because, say, someone plays an A in a run during a hornpipe and they KNOW, based on the music in front of them, that it should be a D and argue that the tune as learned by everyone else is wrong because someone transcribed it wrong. I won't say people have come to blows, but it's come pretty close and there was certainly bad feeling. We pretty much avoid that piece if the combative musician is there because he won't leave it alone. We have another player who has stopped coming because his eyesight is failing, and he feels he can't play with us any more because he can't read the music -- and he's one of only a handful of people who uses the sheet music and we've been telling him for years he ought to take the jump to trying it by ear and not to worry if he gets a note wrong. And on some things, he's willing. but he's uncomfortable playing even a single note different from what the sheet music says even though most of us play the tunes we've learned and they're all slightly different in ornament or transition between the A and B.

I certainly try to play the tune without muffing something, and certainly when I'm playing classical I don't deviate. But I own tons of ITM books and each one seems to have a different version of the tune, some I like and some I don't, and I choose the one I like and play it regardless of what anyone else is doing as long as it fits. We're not a ceili band, we can deviate. And we do.

[CarlM]

The backup players fill in a lot of the space if you leave stuff out. Sometimes it is better to leave some stuff out so there is room for them. The Freddy Green rhythm guitar style was built on that idea that leaving some stuff out was better with a big group so there was more room for the other players.

The first time I understood how much can be left out was listening to Doc Watson playing Big Sandy. In the b-part there is a series of six note runs. He played them all as three note runs that time and it sounded great with the other players behind him. If people freak out at leaving one note out they would really go wild at leaving half of the notes out. But I would not argue with Doc's musical ear.

[Bertram Henze]

I.T.M. police

Randi's got it right. The presence of police within any genre is one thing, but Classical police storming an ITM session just does not sit right with me.

P.S. there is one difference between a classical score and an ITM transcript: the classical score will have parts optimized for every instrument respectively, according to what that instrument is good at. The transcript OTOH will reflect the instrument of the transcriber, and other instruments face the task of either make the best of it or plod along by pathetically mimicking what they're not so good at.

[sblock]

(originally posted to the wrong thread!)

Let's try to remember that ITM is folk music, and part of a great aural tradition -- and all that comes with that! It involves playing variations, ornamentations, cadences, and mixes of local styles and tune phrasing. It is NOT some form of any classical, formal, and "written" tradition, and it never has been.

To capture ITM tunes -- and this was particularly true before the advent of electronic recording, which is quite recent! -- musicologists would write the tune down in standard notation, usually annotating the bare melody without even the most common of the variations and ornamentations. Thousands upon thousands of ITM tunes were captured that way, and one can buy books full of these tunes! But a great deal of the performance aspect -- and flavor -- of ITM was lost in the process, because these bare-bones, notated versions do not begin to capture the way such tunes were actually played.

NOTATION IS VERY POWERFUL, BUT IT IS INCOMPLETE. And the notation usually used for ITM is woefully incomplete. It typically does not capture the music particularly well, and it certainly does not capture the "aliveness" of the music that comes from subtle changes in emphasis and melodic variations.

Don't get me wrong: playing an ITM tune from some notation is a great starting point, if you have that skill! But it is just that: a starting point. Classically-trained players who read standard notation need to realize that the notes on the page can be a point of reference, but they are also a point of departure! They need to learn to respect the aural tradition, and all the richness that derives from that.

[Mike Snyder]

In defense of my friends who read; They have brought reams (bytes, actually) of music to the sessions that were inaccessible to me because I do not search for tunes that way. There are three Portland books at this point and they barely scratch the surface of the tunes that exist but are seldom played. They get into repertoire by folks reading, then playing them, and I appreciate that very much. The fact that they labored long and hard to sight read and come to understand the tunes is not lost on me. It is just so very difficult to replicate the passion in these tunes if you start from notation. Some very talented players do it effortlessly, and I admire them greatly. I can read, slowly and painfully, but it's no fun. I know a girl who sight reads faster than I can play. It is amazing, and she is a remarkable resource for her session members.
I am an old hippie who bought into the whole "All you need is love" thing a long time ago. I have stuff that annoys me in sessions, and carry that as shame and guilt. No a lot, but it's there. I have a dear sweet lady who only uses about three inches of her bow. Very good player but no lift. Another writes incredible music that I struggle to play because she loves very notey and difficulty passages. So I don't play her tunes often, out of respect. There is room for us all to share in the bliss of making music together. Acceptance and diversity are life-long goals. I'm working on it.