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Thread: You don't know a fiddle tune until...

  1. #1
    Marc Jacobs
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    Default You don't know a fiddle tune until...

    I had been building up my repertoire of fiddle tunes, getting them clean and up to speed, when my mandolin teacher (who I sit with every other month) proved to me, after a serious of thought-provoking questions and experiments, that I really didn't know any of those fiddle tunes as well as I thought.

    Here's what I'm slowly discovering to be a rubric for really knowing a fiddle tune:
    - Can you play it slowly, with a metronome and with clean, buzz-free notes, strong timing, and strict alternate picking (DUDU)?
    - Can you play it equally well with reverse alternate picking (UDUD)?
    - Can you play it up-to-speed, with relaxed hands, wrists, arms, and neck, without needing to stare at the fingerboard?
    - Can you consistently control the amount of swing/shuffle in your playing?
    - Can you "stay in your lane" -- that is, play the tune with another player or backing track without getting distracted by what they're playing?
    - Can you easily play the tune three to four times through without stopping, flubbing, or tensing up?
    - Can you transpose it to a different octave?
    - Can you transpose it to a different key?
    - Can you play it in both open and closed positions?
    - Can you play all the chords of the tune and maintain a strong rhythm part for another player?
    - Can you easily alternate between rhythm and lead without a break in rhythm?
    - Can you play at least one melodic variant of the tune?
    - Can you integrate double-stops or drones into the tune and still be on the right chord?
    - Can you play a tag intro or tag ending to the tune?
    - Have you listened to at least two different recordings of the tune?
    - Have you attempted to learn and/or transcribe one of those recordings?
    - Have you attempted to translate the way a different instrument (such as fiddle, guitar, banjo, pennywhistle) plays the tune to mandolin?

    With all of these learning possibilities, suddenly a tune like "Red Haired Boy" seems like an a full-blown etude. Now the trick is to decide when to learn a new tune instead of digging deeper into one I already "know".

    When do you feel you really know a tune? Do you agree with this rubric? What would you add or remove?

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    Default Re: You don't know a fiddle tune until...

    I always thought it was mine when I could play it up to speed in a group of pickers I just met.
    It's nice to have more than one version. And a tag I guess

    Past that I don't have time to think too much about it.

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    Registered User Mandobart's Avatar
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    Default Re: You don't know a fiddle tune until...

    I think those are all great ideas, but IMO not knowing all of that for every tune doesn't mean you don't know a tune. The keys to "knowing" to me consists of: being able to easily play the tune three to four times through without stopping, flubbing, or tensing up; play at least one melodic variant; transpose it to a different octave; play all the chords of the tune and maintain a strong rhythm part for another player and easily alternate between rhythm and lead without a break in rhythm.

    All the other items are part of all around proficiency and not specific to learning an individual tune.

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    Registered User foldedpath's Avatar
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    Default Re: You don't know a fiddle tune until...

    Hello and welcome to the forum!

    That sounds like maybe a good way to approach fiddle tunes from a Bluegrass perspective. On the other hand, I would disagree that some of those items would apply to anyone playing fiddle tunes in other genres like OldTime, or Irish/Scottish traditional music.

    The latter is what I mostly play these days -- Irish/Scottish/Cape Breton fiddle tunes. also pipe tunes shifted into fiddle register. The following items don't apply to most players in my musical world. They're fairly Bluegrass-centric:

    - Can you play it equally well with reverse alternate picking (UDUD)
    - Can you transpose it to a different octave?
    - Can you transpose it to a different key?
    - Can you play it in both open and closed positions?
    - Can you play all the chords of the tune and maintain a strong rhythm part for another player?
    - Can you easily alternate between rhythm and lead without a break in rhythm?
    - Can you play a tag intro or tag ending to the tune?


    Traditional Irish/Scottish music is played on mandolin the same way it's played by a fiddler in those traditions: in first position, not closed positions. We don't usually play rhythm mandolin in Irish sessions, although there are exceptions. The more valued skill is being able to play unison melody with the rest of the group. No tag intros or outros. Instead, the skill you need is smoothly switching tunes nonstop in the middle of a three or four tune set. For Irish and Scottish music, "knowing" a tune also means having it well enough under your fingers to add articulations (ornaments) around the main melody notes.

    It's just a different world of "fiddle tunes."

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    Marc Jacobs
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    Default Re: You don't know a fiddle tune until...

    Thanks for the great clarification. You're right. Even though I do play some ITM, this list was clearly inspired by my experience with my Bluegrass-focused teacher. I also probably wouldn't think to apply the ones you highlighted to ITM.

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    Registered User foldedpath's Avatar
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    Default Re: You don't know a fiddle tune until...

    I wanted to add one thing about transposing an octave:

    That's actually a cool thing to do in one specific case for fiddle tunes played in OldTime or Irish/Scottish trad, and that's when a tune is in A (or A mixolydian) and the melody line sits mostly (or entirely) on the A and E strings. Many of the old piper-derived tunes are like that.

    It's often possible to transpose tunes like that down an octave onto the G and D strings, with different fingerings. I do that sometimes when playing with session pipers (the indoor versions) because it makes the mandolin voice more easily heard. Cape Breton fiddlers use this idea frequently with tunes in A, to play octave variations in different repeats of a tune's A section.

    For tunes other than those in A or A mix, you'll have to get into closed position playing to drop an octave, and you may not have room down there to do it.


    Edit to add: My fiddler S.O. just reminded me that in Cape Breton trad this is called a "low turn."

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    Default Re: You don't know a fiddle tune until...

    A TB player in our sessions sometimes switches up one octave by just shifting his hand above the 12th fret, but he leaves the open strings open (kind of Seamus Tansey style octave jumps), so it doesn't properly count as "transposition", I guess.
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    Default Re: You don't know a fiddle tune until...

    I doubt that there is a handful of players, professional or amateur, that know a fiddle tune if all that is a requirement. Even those that make their living playing must enjoy playing for the most part. To think I had to know all that before I "knew" a tune would make me pack up my mandolin and take up fishing.

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    Default Re: You don't know a fiddle tune until...

    Quote Originally Posted by foldedpath View Post
    .... playing fiddle tunes in other genres like OldTime, or Irish/Scottish traditional music.... The more valued skill is being able to play unison melody with the rest of the group...

    Well said. I would like to place some emphasis on unison playing. In the old-time world there are both historical variants of tunes plus whatever the current "alpha fiddler" has chosen to play. The key is listening and making real time changes to the way you learned the tune to match what the fiddler is playing.

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    String-Bending Heretic mandocrucian's Avatar
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    Default Re: You don't know a fiddle tune until...

    I like the way you think.

    You are definitely on the right track to improving your ear, your mental flexibility, and technical abilities. If you stay on the program, "positions" will replaced by the unified neck!

    You omitted:
    - Can you SING/VOCALIZE the tune?
    - Can you transpose it into parallel minor (D into Dm) or minor modes (and vice versa)?
    - Can you transpose it into other time signatures (3/4, 6/8, 5/4, 7/8, 9/8 etc.) while maintaining the identity of the melody?


    and you may want to add these as further exercises:
    - Can you play it with only index and middle fingers? (index/ring, middle/ring etc.)
    - Can you play it on only one string (as much as possible)?
    - Can you play it anywhere on the neck, starting with any finger or open string?
    - Can you play it with the common fiddle bowing/slurring patterns? (This will open your ears to the world of articulation!)
    - Can you play it with alternate plectrum patterns (all downstrokes, all upstrokes, Udud, DDUU, et.) and a RH that also incorporates use of the middle finger in addition to the pickstrokes?) (This, along with the slurring, will develop independence between the two hands. Almost every classical violin etude will have 12+ bowings the piece is to be practiced with, not just one.)
    - Can you transpose into another key AND another meter AND another position, etc. simultaneously? (This will test your mental flexibility and your ear>hand progress)

    You won't have to practice every fiddle tune with the multiple variations. You will be training your mind to have the ability to manipulate any tune 'on the fly'. It's like magic mushrooms for your fingers!

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    Registered User Earl Gamage's Avatar
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    Default Re: You don't know a fiddle tune until...

    If you have the ability to practice two or three hours a day, you can get that good on every fiddle tune you know. Thank goodness you don't have to be that good to enjoy playing.
    Quote Originally Posted by marcja View Post
    I had been building up my repertoire of fiddle tunes, getting them clean and up to speed, when my mandolin teacher (who I sit with every other month) proved to me, after a serious of thought-provoking questions and experiments, that I really didn't know any of those fiddle tunes as well as I thought.

    Here's what I'm slowly discovering to be a rubric for really knowing a fiddle tune:
    - Can you play it slowly, with a metronome and with clean, buzz-free notes, strong timing, and strict alternate picking (DUDU)?
    - Can you play it equally well with reverse alternate picking (UDUD)?
    - Can you play it up-to-speed, with relaxed hands, wrists, arms, and neck, without needing to stare at the fingerboard?
    - Can you consistently control the amount of swing/shuffle in your playing?
    - Can you "stay in your lane" -- that is, play the tune with another player or backing track without getting distracted by what they're playing?
    - Can you easily play the tune three to four times through without stopping, flubbing, or tensing up?
    - Can you transpose it to a different octave?
    - Can you transpose it to a different key?
    - Can you play it in both open and closed positions?
    - Can you play all the chords of the tune and maintain a strong rhythm part for another player?
    - Can you easily alternate between rhythm and lead without a break in rhythm?
    - Can you play at least one melodic variant of the tune?
    - Can you integrate double-stops or drones into the tune and still be on the right chord?
    - Can you play a tag intro or tag ending to the tune?
    - Have you listened to at least two different recordings of the tune?
    - Have you attempted to learn and/or transcribe one of those recordings?
    - Have you attempted to translate the way a different instrument (such as fiddle, guitar, banjo, pennywhistle) plays the tune to mandolin?

    With all of these learning possibilities, suddenly a tune like "Red Haired Boy" seems like an a full-blown etude. Now the trick is to decide when to learn a new tune instead of digging deeper into one I already "know".

    When do you feel you really know a tune? Do you agree with this rubric? What would you add or remove?

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    Registered User Mandobart's Avatar
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    Default Re: You don't know a fiddle tune until...

    Well if we're going this far (see Mandocrucian's and the original by marcja) we need to add the ability to play the tune left handed (or right handed if you already play lefty), the ability to play the tune backwards (starting with the last note and ending on the first), also be able to sing the lyrics backwards while playing it (like Steve Goodman) and of course you can't say you know a fiddle tune if you can't do all of the above on a fiddle.

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    Default Re: You don't know a fiddle tune until...

    I consider myself knowing a tune if I can get thru it reasonably well at my local jam and maybe get some of the chords...then I cheat off the guitar player or fake it...some tunes we play I barely know but jump out there and try something anyway and have fun.

    Seriously, in the quiet of the practice room I do dive into tunes deeper and have done a lot on that list with a lot of tunes but to hold myself to those standards for all tunes...I'd just not bother...

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    Mando-Accumulator Jim Garber's Avatar
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    Default Re: You don't know a fiddle tune until...

    I have been playing mandolin and fiddle for more than 4 decades. While I would not consider myself a virtuoso, I think I am a pretty competent player who can take (for instance) simple fiddle tunes and play them for listening or dancing pleasure.

    I thoroughly agree that the list compiled above by Marc and Niles is worthwhile and an excellent way to dive into musical exploration. However, I would retitle this thread. I think that you can "know" a fiddle tune without doing all those things but it does improve your musicianship to certainly try these exercises and many would certainly improve your playing. In other words, I don't think you have to be able to do that long list of things in order to know a tune. I estimate that I probably know a few hundred tunes on both instruments which I can comfortably play in public or even in concert but I would never say that you have to do all those things in order to really know how to play those tunes.

    In any case, I do love this list on this thread and will save it for further reference and to explore. Thanks to Marc, Niles and anyone else who wants to add to it.
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    Default Re: You don't know a fiddle tune until...

    You can play it backwards? I don't know, just guessing.

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    Default Re: You don't know a fiddle tune until...

    Yow! I better sell my mandolin and take up the kazoo.

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    Registered User Randi Gormley's Avatar
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    Default Re: You don't know a fiddle tune until...

    Huh. I read the list to my-husband-the-guitar-player and he said that the list was fine, but only the most dedicated of professional musicians can probably do all of that.

    I figure I know a tune when I can start the thing for the other players in the session. A lot of the rest -- picking UDU or DUD, playing in different keys, playing without looking at the fretboard, playing a tune three or more times and not being distracted by what's going on around you, playing slowly (yes, even with a metronome) and keeping rhythm, playing or picking up a tune from another instrument, adding double-stops or countermelody -- all that is simply what happens when you play a long time, at least in ITM. Some of the other stuff -- chords or backup or taking a break and intros and outtros and backing up singers isn't part of the tradition, for me, and may be good technique but not useful to me when I play in session. So perhaps it might be interesting to make a list of what's needed to "know" a fiddle tune in each genre?
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  29. #18
    Mando-Accumulator Jim Garber's Avatar
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    Default Re: You don't know a fiddle tune until...

    Quote Originally Posted by Randi Gormley View Post
    Huh. I read the list to my-husband-the-guitar-player and he said that the list was fine, but only the most dedicated of professional musicians can probably do all of that.
    I am not sure that even most pro musicians can do that with every tune... well, maybe a few of the upper echelon... but do they need or want to?

    I would boil it all down to a few of these that are important in general to playing music on this instrument, regardless of genre:

    - Can you play it slowly, with a metronome and with clean, buzz-free notes, strong timing?
    - Can you play it up-to-speed, with relaxed hands, wrists, arms, and neck, without needing to stare at the fingerboard?
    - Can you consistently control the amount of swing/shuffle in your playing?
    - Can you transpose it to a different octave?
    - Can you play it in both open and closed positions?
    - Can you play at least one melodic variant of the tune?
    - Can you integrate double-stops or drones into the tune and still be on the right chord?
    - Can you SING/VOCALIZE the tune?
    - Can you play it anywhere on the neck, starting with any finger or open string?
    - Can you play it with the common fiddle bowing/slurring patterns? (This will open your ears to the world of articulation!)

    Some of the other stuff I consider parlor tricks and while they do have their usefulness in working on your musicianship, are not all that necessary in learning traditional folk genres or, for that matter really any genre -- even jazz or classical.

    I actually find that if I hear a tune on a recording, video or in person, I can actually visualize where my fingers are placed as well as the phrasing. That also comes from playing fiddle tunes for a long time.
    Last edited by Jim Garber; Nov-26-2016 at 2:54pm.
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  30. #19
    Registered User foldedpath's Avatar
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    Default Re: You don't know a fiddle tune until...

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Garber View Post
    I would boil it all down to a few of these that are important in general to playing music on this instrument, regardless of genre:

    (snip)

    - Can you transpose it to a different octave?
    - Can you play it in both open and closed positions?
    - Can you play it anywhere on the neck, starting with any finger or open string?
    I would still take issue with that "regardless of genre" part. There are plenty of folk traditions involving fiddle-based tunes where playing out of first position is simply not required or relevant.

    In some cases, like Irish trad, you will actually limit yourself by playing a fiddle tune further up the neck. Not only because you won't be playing it with anyone else, but because you won't have access to open string drones, or certain ornaments that only work well in first position.

    Irish, Scottish, and related OldTime fiddle tunes have been played in first position on fiddle for hundreds of years, and for a number of reasons. First, it's folk music and easier for amateurs to stay in first position. Second, the tunes are primarily based on the keys of D and G with their related minors, which falls naturally under the fingers in first position. Finally, first position playing in those specific keys allows the use of open string drones, and frees up the fingers to play the very complex ornaments that have developed in the tradition (at least for Irish and Scottish trad, not so much for OldTime).

    If a fiddler playing OldTime or Irish trad never leaves first position, then there is no reason for a mandolin player to do it either. Not unless they also want to learn to play Bluegrass, Blues, Jazz, or one of the other "fiddle tune" traditions like Klezmer or Roma music where you need it.

    I know we've all had variations of this discussion before. There are proponents of being a generalist mandolin player who feel you're not complete as a musician unless you have full mastery of the neck, transposition, etc. Then there are those who like to dive deep down the well of a single folk tradition, learning only the relevant techniques. You can probably tell which side of that divide I land on.

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  32. #20
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    Default Re: You don't know a fiddle tune until...

    Not just with fiddle tunes,but that Calace piece also,,you got to be able to play that backwards if you ever want to be somebody...

  33. #21
    Marc Jacobs
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    Default Re: You don't know a fiddle tune until...

    Niles, thanks for the supportive ideas! A few comments/questions:

    Quote Originally Posted by mandocrucian View Post
    - Can you transpose it into parallel minor (D into Dm) or minor modes (and vice versa)?
    Reminds me of how tunes like "Shady Grove" and "Cold Frosty Morning" can be played in both major and minor/modal keys...

    Quote Originally Posted by mandocrucian View Post
    - Can you transpose it into other time signatures (3/4, 6/8, 5/4, 7/8, 9/8 etc.) while maintaining the identity of the melody?
    I had to think about this one for a bit. Imagining how I'd play "Whiskey Before Breakfast" in 3/4 time took a while, but once it came to me, it sounded pretty cool. Worth exploring.

    Quote Originally Posted by mandocrucian View Post
    - Can you play it with only index and middle fingers? (index/ring, middle/ring etc.)
    Is the point here to practice position shifts and slides (beyond finger strengthening)?

    Quote Originally Posted by mandocrucian View Post
    - Can you play it with the common fiddle bowing/slurring patterns? (This will open your ears to the world of articulation!)
    I had actually considered this one before, but I haven't figured out how to do it yet. Do you emulate the bowing patterns through accents? picked legato runs separated with a staccato? hammer-ons/pull-offs? All of the above? I recall a Bill Monroe interview at the end of "Live Recordings 1956-1969: Off the Record Volume 1" where he is asked to attempt to do a fiddle shuffle on mandolin. Got to give that another listen...

    In retrospect, I agree with Jim Garber that this thread would have been better titled, "How to extract the maximum learning potential out a fiddle tune" or similar.

  34. #22
    String-Bending Heretic mandocrucian's Avatar
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    Default Re: You don't know a fiddle tune until...


  35. #23
    Registered User Manfred Hacker's Avatar
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    Default Re: You don't know a fiddle tune until...

    So many notes, so little time ....
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  36. #24

    Default Re: You don't know a fiddle tune until...

    Quote Originally Posted by mandocrucian View Post
    Numerous things...

    You train your mind to get past the rehearsed finger habits. You want to get to the point that it doesn't


    Jazz is a potent form - art a language (and salvation).

  37. #25
    Mando-Accumulator Jim Garber's Avatar
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    Default Re: You don't know a fiddle tune until...

    Quote Originally Posted by foldedpath View Post
    I would still take issue with that "regardless of genre" part. There are plenty of folk traditions involving fiddle-based tunes where playing out of first position is simply not required or relevant.
    Your points are well-taken, FP. I have been lately playing lots of old time tunes with variations on standard parts either played an octave lower or octave higher without actually leaving first position. That certainly goes for OT times played in key of A cross tuning on fiddle which is quite easy but i also do it in standard tuning in other keys as well.

    Certainly, it is not necessary to do so in these trad genres but is not a bad exercise to work on your chops. I have heard some ITM fiddlers play in upper positions tho I agree that it is probably as common as OT players.
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