What makes a classical mandolin?

[derbex]

So we're all agreed then, a classical mandolin is a mandolin one plays classical music on

For me it would be about the tone, it should be bright and clear -volume is nice too. Of my mandolins the bowlbacks and the flattops have it and the carved top doesn't. So although it's perfectly possible and even pleasant to play classical music on the Flatiron, it doesn't sound right, not bright and the mid range is too strong.

[Jim Garber]

So we're all agreed then, a classical mandolin is a mandolin one plays classical music on

It seems that this is the same conclusion for the jazz mandolin thread.

[Tavy]

Can I make a comment here that the soundboard on the Labraid is actually at the back. It functions as a back. It is different than some of the Italian bowlbacks which had a separate soundboard at the top which were mechanically coupled to the top. So Ceccherinis therefore have a second soundboard (which is usually defined as being mechanically joined to the bridge in some way, and not driven just by air movement and the movement of the sides, which I would call a "back"). Of course for marketing purposes it's been acceptable, or at least tolerated, to call any internal spruce plate a sound board, but that can get confusing.
No idea how the Kerman functions, or where the internal "sound board" is located on those.

I think we're all in more or less violent agreement here, we basically have:

* Virzi's: directly attached to the soundboard, some sort of "tone modifier".
* Ceccherini: located just below the top, but attached to the sides. Additional sound board shouldn't effect the resonance of the top (like a Virzi) as such, except that it's so close to it that there must be some loose coupling via air movement as well as it "feeling" the vibrations directly.
* Dean: really an internal back, and functions as such, albeit made from spruce and much lighter/thinner than a conventional back.
* Kerman: more or less an internal back like the Dean, but has a soundhole linking the two chambers (I think Dean experimented with this at least once?) and uniquely, the rear chamber has vents to the front (again I think Dean built at least one like this, but that vented to the back?).

[Martin Jonas]

* Ceccherini: located just below the top, but attached to the sides. Additional sound board shouldn't effect the resonance of the top (like a Virzi) as such, except that it's so close to it that there must be some loose coupling via air movement as well as it "feeling" the vibrations directly.

A bit more complex than that, from what I can see on mine (without taking it apart): Ceccherini has a thin internal spruce soundboard which is almost (but not quite) the entire width of the bowl and is suspended about a centimetre below the external soundboard. It attaches with wooden tags to the very ends of the transverse braces, but not actually to the sides. There is also a small circular soundhole linking the main chamber to the narrow chamber between the two soundboard.

There is also Gelas who has two soundboards at an angle to each other so that the rear board is part-external and part-internal and in its internal part forms the separation between the two chambers. The bridge attaches to the reard board in a way that the string tension pulls the soundboard up rather than presses it down. The bridge also exerts a torque on the board. The forward soundboard is external but has no connection to the strings. Both soundboards have aligned oval soundholes and both are made of spruce. It's not clear to me whether the forward soundboard is at all acoustically active.

Martin

[Sevelos]

The mandolin of Caterina Lichtenberg (in the video posted above), completely knocked me out! Such an amazing instrument.
Does anybody know who built it for her, or what make it is?

[crisscross]

Do you mean this one?


According to the comments to this video, it's a Seiffert model built by Alfred Woll.
I read somewhere that he currently has a waiting list of seven years.
I'm also thinking of adding a Seiffert model to my collection, but seven years, come on, that'll be the last year of...

[Sevelos]

Thanks Crisscross, actually, I meant that one:



They are probably by the same maker, they look similar.
Yes, 7 years... pity. Such wonderful instruments, in the same price range as good, mid-range American mandolins.

[crisscross]

For me it would be about the tone, it should be bright and clear -volume is nice too. Of my mandolins the bowlbacks and the flattops have it and the carved top doesn't. So although it's perfectly possible and even pleasant to play classical music on the Flatiron, it doesn't sound right, not bright and the mid range is too strong.

That kind od nails it, you rather want a kind of a delicate sound to play classical music than a rustic midrangy one. (OK, I'm not good at describing sound qualities...)
But it doesn't depend on the mandolin only, but also on the strings used, the pick, the way you attack the strings.

On my Breedlove FF, I have my favorite Fisoma strings and picked it with the pointed edge of a small teardrop pick.

Sounds kind of classical? OK,the Breedlove in itself probably doesn't sound as mid-rangy as a Gibson.

For comparison: My newest acquisition, a Japanese Torella bowlback.
To me, it feels more classical because of the shorter scale length, but the Sound?
OK, it's no Calace, Embergher or De Meglio.

[derbex]

Well played on those two, I had forgotten how pretty that Waltz is. I slightly prefer the Torella but I would find the Breedlove perfectly acceptable.

I am not sure delicacy is exactly the word, I had an expensive trip to the luthiers the other day -it was meant to be a cheap repair to the Flatiron but I walked out with a 1916 Calace. Delicate it isn't, maybe precise, but it shouts.

I use the same model of plectrum across all my mandolins now, but they do have different strings. The Flatiron currently has Daddario flatwounds on it but I put in an order to Thomann and have some Dogal Calace and Fisomas to try out. The Fisomas were for the Calace but I seem to have got medium weight strings and I daren't put them on it.

[Martin Jonas]

The Fisomas were for the Calace but I seem to have got medium weight strings and I daren't put them on it.

At least in their bronzewound strings, what Fisoma call "medium" is the same gauge as their "Consort" set which is specifically intended for vintage bowlbacks. The difference is that the "medium" set has a plain A string and the Consort has a wound A string. They'll be perfectly fine for your Calace -- I use them on my Ceccherini and Embergher.

Martin

[derbex]

Thanks Martin, the packaging is rather confusing, They call themselves Fisoma Consort 80/20 Bronze FR3020, and then list two sets of gauges Light .009 .013 .022 .032 and Medium .010 .014 .025 .035 -my set have nothing to indicate which it is, but comparing e strings with other makers I'd guess they are .10s rather than .009s, which would make them medium. They do say they are made for historic instruments.

The idea was to compare a few different sets and see which I preferred. When I bought it, it had Martins on it which were dramatic but the tuning and intonation were all over the place yesterday. I have put GHS Ultra Lights on it today which seem a bit calmer I'll give it a couple of days and maybe try Dogol Calace and possibly the Fisomas after that.

[Martin Jonas]

Thanks Martin, the packaging is rather confusing, They call themselves Fisoma Consort 80/20 Bronze FR3020, and then list two sets of gauges Light .009 .013 .022 .032 and Medium .010 .014 .025 .035 -my set have nothing to indicate which it is, but comparing e strings with other makers I'd guess they are .10s rather than .009s, which would make them medium. They do say they are made for historic instruments.

They're the mediums. The packaging is indeed rather confusing -- the Consorts are made ONLY in medium, and have slightly different string gauges than the medium gauges given on the back of the pack.

The confusion arises because this is a custom set made in small volumes, originally specifically for Alex Timmermann's Het Consort (hence the name), but now also sold through Trekel and Schneider. It's not listed on Fisoma's own webpage, which shows only the light and medium. For the Consort, they use the same pack as for the standard light/medium sets, but do not tick either of the boxes on the front showing which gauge it is. Instead, they overprint the pack with "Consort Saiten fuer historische Qualitaets-Mandolinen" ("strings for high-end vintage mandolins").

As I said, these are the gauges Alex specified for Embergher mandolins. I've been using them a lot for my own bowlbacks, without any problems. The gauges will be fine for your Calace. When you try them, be aware that they take some settling in and will change in character during the first week or so of playing (and possibly longer).

The Consort set has the wound A string, which sounds very nice indeed and also improves intonation if your Calace has a straight non-compensated bridge.

Martin

[derbex]

Thanks again Martin, I think I've got it now

FWIW mine came from Thomann

[Charlieshafer]

Last night I had the opportunity to talk with Joe Brent before his show. We looked it over (not like he doesn't do that every day, but it was my first chance), he explained some of the hidden details, and i got to play it a bit. Overall, the only thing that seems to cause some confusion are the internal soundboard and the choice of top material. Joe chose walnut as he wanted to have a slightly darker sound than a conventional top. It does have that tone, but also is incredibly bright and clear when playing up the fretboard. The longer scale length, by just a little, accommodates the zero fret and the fact that Joe wants to be able to play any and all styles of music, and wants the slight bit of extra space, especially when considering the low c string on the ten string.

As to the internal soundboard, it's more like an internal sealed chamber. In the first version, Brian thought a small vent hole in the true back was necessary, as the vibrations could break the thing apart. In the later version, the one I saw, the space between the inner spruce soundboard and the back was sealed tight. I'm guessing the depth of the main interior space is about 3", and the second sealed chamber at about 1 inch. I'm sure more accurate dimensions are available. Regardless of theory, the Dean is very loud, very clear and precise, and the sustain was the same as on a much larger-bodied instrument, more on par with my mandocello. It was a pretty stunning result. And, you can play any style of music on it you'd want. The results are strictly up to the player. Pretty impressive beast.

[Bob A]

The mandolin of Caterina Lichtenberg (in the video posted above), completely knocked me out! Such an amazing instrument.
Does anybody know who built it for her, or what make it is?

Looks like Alfred Woll. You can see is label, with letters gradually revealed as the instrument moves about, thru the soundhole.

[JeffD]

I was lucky enough at FMCM, while test driving Jacob Reuven's Kerman, to have him try my Lyon and Healy Style A. I have it strung with Thomastik Infeld Mittel Flatwound strings. After giving it a blistering workout, he spontaneously offered very nice things to say about it and played it for a little while. I thought he was genuine.

A few days later he tried my Stiver two point, (with ff holes). I string it with D'Addario J75s. It is very bluegrassy, thick and rich, very focused. Jacob did not care for it. He played a few scales and said something to the effect that "you can't play brightly on this" as he handed it back to me.

[DavidKOS]

I was lucky enough at FMCM, while test driving Jacob Reuven's Kerman,

and what about the Kerman?

please

[JeffD]

and what about the Kerman?

http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/en...the-end-of-MAS

Take this with a grain of salt. Not that I didn't mean it, all of it, but I am a fanboy and prone to fits of enthusiasm and dare I say hyperbole.

Just sayin...

[DavidKOS]

http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/en...the-end-of-MAS

Take this with a grain of salt. Not that I didn't mean it, all of it, but I am a fanboy and prone to fits of enthusiasm and dare I say hyperbole.

Just sayin...

How did I miss that before?

I appreciate the review.

BTW, how did it compare with a high-end Italian bowlback?

[JeffD]

I haven't played a lot of high end Italian bowls. Many years ago I played an old Embergher. Many variables different, the age of the instrument, its condition, etc. Also comparing a recent memory with an old memory is dicey.

I can make a few general comments. My bowls are all American made turn of the last century. Good condition most of them and I play them often. And they can be loud. My experience, in general, with bowls is that they often have a different character at different volumes. Even my best bowl, a Martin Style 3, has a different kind of tone when played loud, or very soft.

I remember being surprised how great Yaki's Kerman sounded at low volume. It was the same mandolin at low volume as high. Which would be, of course, important when using the full dynamic range of the instrument in an expressive way.

[InvisibleWaa]

I am just wrote this 70th reply for to take off subliminality of 69 number from front of people's eyes.

[astein2006]

OK, let's assume you can make a non-bowl scroll-less classical mandolin.

I want the following features:

Typical shorter Italian bowlback scale length; I assume that is for "13" scale and light strings"

At least 27 frets

A neck not too wide but wide enough to play 4 note chords

VOLUME! first and foremost it needs to be a loud instrument.

simple but high quality wood and construction

and if you have found out more about those Kerman mandolins, please share what you know with the rest of us.

I have a friend building a flat back classical mandolin for me right now:

this was it several months ago, it will be ready soon

Thinking of having one built also. What wood did he use for back, sides and top? Also neck wood?

[DavidKOS]

Thinking of having one built also. What wood did he use for back, sides and top? Also neck wood?

Neck was figured maple, ebony fingerboard, aged redwood top, and rosewood back and sides.

It came out quite nice!

https://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/s...=1#post1603492

[Jim Garber]

Any soundclips of you playing this mandolin, David? What strings do you have on it?

[DavidKOS]

Any soundclips of you playing this mandolin, David? What strings do you have on it?

No sound clips yet, sorry.

It has roundwound 10's, and that's as heavy as I would want on this instrument.