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Thread: Old Virzi and more found at Mandolin Brothers

  1. #1
    Administrator Mandolin Cafe's Avatar
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    Default Old Virzi and more found at Mandolin Brothers

    Someone sent this to us, knew it was a Virzi but wasn't sure from what, or its worth. Rather than tell what we think it is--believe it's from a violin--thought we'd toss out here because they're cool photos, some of the better we've seen and, heck, that's what we do. Feel free to weigh in. Value? From? Date? Whatever else you'd like to add, and then we'll tell you who sent these. Think you'll appreciate knowing after some answers come in.

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    Registered User Charles E.'s Avatar
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    Default Re: Old Virzi

    It looks to be from a violin, part of the original bass bar is intact. We have a couple in the shop (one from a cello) and have seen them over the years. This is a very clean one. As to value, are they collectible? I do not know.
    Charley

    A bunch of stuff with four strings

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    Registered User Charles E.'s Avatar
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    Default Re: Old Virzi

    As an aside, one of the strangest things I have ever seen regarding Verzi, was an Italian cello from the 19th century, that had sculpted pieces of wood glued to various sections of the top and back plates. There were about twenty in all and each one was stamped Virzi. I wish I had gotten a photo of it.
    Charley

    A bunch of stuff with four strings

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    Default Re: Old Virzi

    The amount of effort expended in shaping the support structure is remarkable. I can only wonder whether the payback in sound quality was worth the trouble.

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    Registered User Charles E.'s Avatar
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    Default Re: Old Virzi

    I think that the color of the bass bar and the device indicate that they were installed at the same time and it is possible that it could be from a violin made by Joseph Virzi . Time period could be mid twenties on.

    Here is Roger Siminoff's web site with info and history....

    http://siminoff.net/virzi-tone-background/
    Charley

    A bunch of stuff with four strings

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    Default Re: Old Virzi

    This is a wonderful find, and yes, it is from a violin - either one of J&J Virzi's models, or some other maker's in which the Virzi was installed as an after-market accessory. Giuseppe Virzi was awarded a US patent in 1922 for his design of a floating "tone producer" that was attached to the bass bar of violins. Later versions included the oval-shaped tone producers that Gibson licensed in the mid 1920s and were placed in several instrument models including A's, the heralded F5's, H5 mandolas, and L5 Master Model guitars. These oval-shaped plates had two feet that attached to the soundboard just behind the bridge and a single foot that attached forward of the tailpiece. Lloyd Loar was a believer in the attributes of the tone producer, and he had one installed in his viola (which is currently in my possession, and was written up in the Virzi Catalog). The license with Gibson extended to 1926; an ad for the "Virzi Tone Amplifier" on page 25 of the 1927 Accessory Catalog (which was in print production during 1926) was rubber stamped with the word "CANCELLED."

    If you're interested in more history on the tone producer, you can find it here: http://siminoff.net/virzi-tone-background/

    Roger

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    Default Re: Old Virzi

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    The strangest Virzi I've seen was in a friend's upright piano. It was a long boomerang-shaped thing. I suspect it was a Packard brand piano. I think this article shows the violin tone producer we're discussing.

    Steve

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    Registered User William Smith's Avatar
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    Default Re: Old Virzi

    That is very kool to say the least about it, I agree this one is for a fiddle, where in the world did it come from, must be taken out of an old fiddle? I'd imagine it holds some value for the rarity and history of it.

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    Registered User JH Murray's Avatar
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    Default Re: Old Virzi

    Is the Arik Kerman mandolin used by Avi Avital and Jacob Rueven using the same principle with its double top?

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    Default Re: Old Virzi

    This came to us from Allison Jay, Stan Jay's (Mandolin Brothers) daughter. Part of her email below. They're trying to figure out what to do with it. I told her it was likely from a violin but didn't know anything further and would share it with the forum.

    Part of her email:

    We found this old Virzi today – it was inside an antique instrument display cabinet. Something we had never looked inside of for many decades. We're trying to do some research to figure out a) what it came from and b) what to do with it once we figure out what it is.

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    Default Re: Old Virzi

    Time for popcorn!
    I love this stuff!
    Timothy F. Lewis
    "If brains was lard, that boy couldn't grease a very big skillet" J.D. Clampett

  18. #12

    Default Re: Old Virzi

    Roger Siminoff posted earlier.

    I have to share a Virzi story he told me a number of years ago. He said he was in New York City, standing in line waiting to get into a Broadway show and a guy was playing a violin to entertain the patrons while they waited. Roger listened carefully to the beautiful dark sound of the violin and asked the musician "Does that violin have a Virzi Tone Producer in it?" The guy was totally floored. He said "I've never even met someone who knew what a Virzi Tone Producer was, and you identified it just by listening. "I can't believe it!"

    They do have a unique sound.

    Steve

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    Mando-Accumulator Jim Garber's Avatar
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    Default Re: Old Virzi

    There was a fair amount of experimentation with double sound boards in stringed instruments. I had a violin patented 1879 made by Edward Mollenhauer with a full internal secondary soundboard. Not much in the way of tone, tho. Here's the patent.

    I have a feeling that the Virzi contraption worked better, or at least did not inhibit the sound.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails US218761.pdf  
    Jim

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    Default Re: Old Virzi

    Couple more finds Allison sent. She said this stuff is seemingly everywhere as they go through old cabinets, storage areas.

    Martin & Coupa Guitar Manufacturers


    John D'Angelico - Maker of Fine Guitars

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    Default Re: Old Virzi and more found at Mandolin Brothers

    ... and even more.

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    Mando-Accumulator Jim Garber's Avatar
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    Default Re: Old Virzi and more found at Mandolin Brothers

    Fantastic. Thanks tons to Alison and Scott for making these images available.
    Jim

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    Default Re: Old Virzi and more found at Mandolin Brothers

    Speaking of Virzi`s....I never met one that I liked...But I don`t play a violin (fiddle) to me they hinder a mandolins sound...Just my opinion...And I am sure others agree with that since a lot of them have been removed from mandolins...

    Willie

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    two t's and one hyphen fatt-dad's Avatar
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    Default Re: Old Virzi and more found at Mandolin Brothers

    I own a Packard upright piano. Wonder if it has a Virzi?

    Interesting thread!

    f-d
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    Default Re: Old Virzi and more found at Mandolin Brothers

    Are there drawings any place that show the dimensions of these magical disks?
    "It's comparable to playing a cheese slicer."
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    "Bargain instruments are no bargains if you can't play them"
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    Mando-Accumulator Jim Garber's Avatar
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    Default Re: Old Virzi and more found at Mandolin Brothers

    The only Loar F-5 I played for about 30 minutes (at Retrofret a few years ago) actually had a Virzi and it sounded great. I don't know if I would prefer one without or not since I didn't have another one without one to compare it to.
    Jim

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  32. #21
    Mando-Accumulator Jim Garber's Avatar
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    Default Re: Old Virzi and more found at Mandolin Brothers

    It looks like the Virzi's had three different patents for their tone thingers. I wonder if they used all of them depending on what tone shaping they wanted to do.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails US1349700.pdf   US1351709.pdf   US1412584.pdf  

    Jim

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    Registered User Hendrik Ahrend's Avatar
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    Default Re: Old Virzi and more found at Mandolin Brothers

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Garber View Post
    The only Loar F-5 I played for about 30 minutes (at Retrofret a few years ago) actually had a Virzi and it sounded great. I don't know if I would prefer one without or not since I didn't have another one without one to compare it to.
    Jim, any chance it was #75702? That mando was at Elderly's once, went to Retrofret and was eventually test-driven and compared to a non-Virzi (#75310) at Carter's: www.youtube.com/watch?v=0h_CdTa-2-U

  35. #23

    Default Re: Old Virzi and more found at Mandolin Brothers

    I own a Packard upright piano. Wonder if it has a Virzi?
    Going by memory but Virzi's appeared on Packard pianos and one other brand, and only for one or two years, I think 1922 and 23. On an upright piano look at the back of the soundboard, the side toward the wall. If one is there you can't miss it.

    Steve

  36. #24

    Default Re: Old Virzi and more found at Mandolin Brothers

    Some folks might be interested seeing in the mandolin Virzi Tone Producer. You can see where this one was broken into several pieces to remove it through the F-holes.

    My two cents on a Virzi in an F-5 mandolin. They add some weight to the top and therefore function like a mute; that is they add richness to the tone while increasing sustain and reducing volume. I've played a couple of Virzi Loars and that's what I hear. When playing through a microphone the reduced volume isn't really an issue. The difference in tone is a matter of taste. But increased sustain is the last thing you want if you're playing Bluegrass. You want the instrument to respond immediately to the plucked string and then have the note die off as quickly as possible so all those fast notes don't blend together and sound muddy. For other styles of music a Virzi may be the best thing ever. That's just my opinion, for what it's worth.

    Steve

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  37. #25
    Registered User DavidKOS's Avatar
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    Default Re: Old Virzi and more found at Mandolin Brothers

    I wonder how the inner rim resonator on my French-style Vietnamese mandolins compares to the Virzi. It seems like a similar concept.

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