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Thread: Arthritis

  1. #1
    Registered User misterstormalong's Avatar
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    Default Arthritis

    For the first time (and at the age of 63) this winter has brought noticeable tenderness in the joints of my fingers and wrists. It is aleviated by Ibuprofen, but I take it only as needed.

    The question is, will mandolin playing help to stave off or worsen the symptoms of arthritis?

  2. #2

    Default Re: Arthritis

    Hi there - first of all, sorry to hear about your painful joints and I hope they don't get any worse.

    Just a couple of things - have you seen a doctor to find out if it's actually arthritis? I know that that's often the cause of joint pain, but I also know from personal experience that inflamed tendons that aren't gliding properly can also cause joint pain by not allowing the joints to move fully. The knuckle closest to the nail on the first finger of my fretting hand was really painful - turned out that having some physio work done on my forearm freed up a tight tendon which then restored full mobility to the finger.

    I'm not a doctor but, as I understand it, arthritic things need to keep moving to stop them from seizing up - BUT ask your doctor!

    Tendons, on the other hand, need backing off a little to allow them to heal.

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    Default Re: Arthritis

    My doctor said to keep playing, I find that a lower action and a lighter touch helps. I now prefer to plug in instead of using a mic as it is easier to play with a lighter touch and be heard well. If I have a gig that I really need to play aggressive or I have turned too many screws for whatever reason they get sore. I try to watch what I do before I play. I have heard eating less processed foods and eating a more vegetarian diet also helps with arthritis. I go in and out with this as my diet is restricted by other issues and some things I find hard to give up. Good luck, keep playing, enjoy when you can.
    THE WORLD IS A BETTER PLACE JUST FOR YOUR SMILE!

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    Default Re: Arthritis

    Hmm, it's not clear if you're playing a lot, or would like to play a few hours a day. Maybe some more info on what instrument (string gauge, height of action, especially), what style, and if possible a video of you playing would let people see and comment on your ergonomics: posture, breathing, where you hold tension. That's assuming you don't have a teacher or player friends who can observe.

    The instrument requires good amounts of muscular effort, to address that you can try lower action, light gauge strings, tune down a half step, amplification, play at lower volume, hydrate, proper warmup, take frequent breaks, always keep hands/arms warm in winter etc. Learning to relax the pick grip and fretting action makes a big difference.

    Also could try arnica as anti inflammatory, i get these little pills from German firm Boiron.
    Last edited by gtani7; Oct-22-2016 at 4:05pm.
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    a pedal steel (highly recommended); banjo, dobro don't get played much cause i'm considerate ;}

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    Default Re: Arthritis

    Some good advice here already, but IF the problem is arthritis, I can make two suggestions. I have dealt with arthritis in my feet, ankles, and legs for years as a result of serious bone damage 45 years ago. Fortunately, I don't have to stroll about while playing mandolin! (1) CERTAINLY keeping moving is the best thing to minimize the pain of arthritis for me, so I imagine keeping at the mandolin would be good for you, provided you are suffering from arthritis. My father-in-law was encouraged to knit to help with his arthritic hands. (2) I eat hemp hearts every day, and they really seem to help the arthritis. My wife and a friend of hers also use hemp hearts to deal with their own arthritic pains. We all are 60+ and live in damp, west coast climates, and I don't need the weatherman to know when a storm is coming. In Canada, hemp hearts are available in natural food stores or (fortunately for us) at well-stocked grocery stores. P.S. Hemp hearts are likely better for your body than Ibuprofen and they have no "recreational" side-effects.... Good luck! I took up fiddle and mandolin (in my 60s) largely because I knew I would need to spend a lot of my golden years sitting down, rather than walking about, which I'd rather be doing. Now I'd RATHER be playing music than anything else!

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    Default Re: Arthritis

    As a side note I have had lower action with heavier strings than with lighter. Lighter strings may play easier with normal action, but my mandolin plays very easy with 11-40 and very low action. Most who play it remark to that fact. How hard I strike the strings has an effect too, I used to love acoustic gigs, now they are hard due to having to play harder.
    THE WORLD IS A BETTER PLACE JUST FOR YOUR SMILE!

  10. #7

    Default Re: Arthritis

    See your doctor. I too have recently dealt with this.
    If in fact arthriitus
    It can be triggered by stress. Like trigger finger, surgery, and others.
    It is an immune system issue. The body attacks the joints.
    It can be crippling, literally.
    And importantly, if not arreseted, can damage joints permanently.

    Word to the wise, from the experienced, this is somewthing best addressed early.
    Specialists can take weeks or longer to get in to see.

    When at is worst, for me, several months back, nothing helped, imncluding playing. Exercise and movement was so difficult, sometimes i could not do anything. Point is, depending on things, it can really change your life. Address it with a doctor, not on a mando forum. Best

  11. #8
    Registered User misterstormalong's Avatar
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    Default Re: Arthritis

    Thanks for your responses. I'll take your advice and see what the doc says.

    Rik

  12. #9
    Registered User Ivan Kelsall's Avatar
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    Default Re: Arthritis

    Go to visit your Doctor & get his/her advice - don't guess. Firstly,is it definitely Arthritis ?. If it is,your Doc. should prescribe the appropriate medication to help prevent it becoming worse. If it does get worse through inappropriate medication,you'll end up needing much more than Ibuprofen.

    I have Trigger finger in my right hand middle finger which is pretty bad,but it doesn't interfere with anything (yet),so i'll leave it. I also have a degree of Tendonitis in both hands which makes then a tad painful at times,but again,it's not preventing me from doing anything. If either problems really do become a ''problem'',off to my Docs. i'll go.

    One thing that you might try out,something that i use & it does help - soak your hands & a facecloth in really warm water for a few minutes,get them 'soaked' in warmth. Then take the facecloth & wring it out as hard as you can. Do this as often as it takes to feel your hands ''loosen up''. That was part of my Physio. after an op.for Trigger finger on my left hand several years ago & it helped so much that i still use it -when i feel i need to,
    Ivan
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  14. #10
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    Default Re: Arthritis

    I agree with other posts that an MD clinic visit is important. If there's a lot of inflammation that needs to be evaluated. In the USA we have a brand of home Use products called I believe Hometics. My husband has the paraffin bath set that has a safe temperature control that heats the wax but won't burn the skin. I also found some gloves called Copper Fit that he wears to bed at night. He says they both have helped his hand and finger arthritis. With arthritis you have to keep moving as much as possible.
    I read an article from an interview with Chet Atkins where he talked about the arthritis in his hands but he plays all of the time anyway. As we age it's hard to adjust to the many changes in our bodies but keep going and don't let it get you down. You sound like you really enjoy playing so hang in there and don't quit. Good luck to you!
    Bonnie
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    Registered User Ivan Kelsall's Avatar
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    Default Re: Arthritis

    From Bonnie - "As we age it's hard to adjust to the many changes in our bodies ....". Never a truer word spoken,& it seems like there's something new to ''adjust to'' every day. As one complaint subsides,another comes along to take it's place - oh well !!!,
    Ivan
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    formerly Philphool Phil Goodson's Avatar
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    Default Re: Arthritis

    Certainly get diagnosed first. But for routine finger joint osteoarthritis, I've been amazed at the improvement after a few weeks of MSM 3 times daily. YMMV.
    Phil

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    Default Re: Arthritis

    Possibly yes, possibly no....
    Not using the joint is generally not the best remedy but, using it safely will be your ally. Discuss it with your doctor. My mother continued to do (very intricate) needlework up to a matter of months before she died. It helped her continued facility of finger movement far better than "not" doing something.
    Think Newtonian!
    "An object in motion....."
    Some say..."Eat six ribs of raw celery every day!" and that helps them. I can't LOOK at that much of the stuff! For every problem, dozens of solutions! Play mandolin as efficiently as possible, work on technique is just one more!
    Timothy F. Lewis
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    Default Re: Arthritis

    My osteoarthritis flares up every few months & I have a few coping mechanisms that mitigate the pain.
    Normally before practicing on a bad day I will make a mug of tea before I go to practice.
    I drink this using the left hand holding the mug directly rather than by the handle & I cup both hands around the mug while it's sitting on the table.
    The heat eases the ache by the time the mug is empty. I then give the finges a fairly detailed stretch routine using a rubber ball, followed by a detailed rub of all the soft areas.

    For really bad days when I can't get it to subside much I use 10% Ibuprofin gel worked in and re-wetted several times while working it in. That's very effective at seeing me over a bad patch enough to get some practice in.

    I tend to move on to focussing my practice on tone production, legato playing and learning right hand picking patterns on the bad days.

    Things to avoid include sharrp repeated impacts, lifting heavy bags by narrow handles, playing loads of triplets and ornaments over energetically. Use cycling gloves if you're mowing lawns, holding drills etc. If you do DIY buy tools such as hammers etc which have soft grip handles and fibreglass shafts which are more forgiving. You can wrap bicycle handlebar tape around existing handles to give a larger grip and more impact/vibration protection.

    Hope some of those tips from my experience help a bit.
    Eoin



    "Forget that anyone is listening to you and always listen to yourself" - Fryderyk Chopin

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    Default Re: Arthritis

    Double-course instruments but especially the mandolin with its very high string tension are particularly hard on the fingers. At least for some of the time, you might want to consider playing a tenor guitar or, dare I say it a tenor banjo, which are much easier on the fingers.

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  23. #16
    Registered User Ivan Kelsall's Avatar
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    Default Re: Arthritis

    Eoin - Try the hot facecloth ruitine that i outlined. That was one of the Physio.excercises i had to do after an op.on my left hand. Swapping between ''tension & relaxing'' with the addition of the heat,really does work. After 5 minutes of that,it's as though i've never had a hand problem in my life !.
    Ivan
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    Default Re: Arthritis

    As there are around 250 varieties of arthritis (some even sexually transmitted!) it's important, at some stage, to get a diagnosis. Meanwhile, my wife being a retired rheumatology nurse and suffering from arthritis in her own hands, the advice would be to keep the offending joints moving so far as you're able. Arthritis tends to burn itself out after a period and, whilst likely to re-occur, things may get better after a time.

  25. #18
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    Default Re: Arthritis

    I'd like to share what helps for me. Glucosamine is good - you can get it as tablets and as a gel to rub on. You can also get something called allantoin, which is a powder. It stimulates the production of new cells. You can get it on eBay. Mix allantoin (3% by weight) with the glucosamine gel. I rub it into my thumb joints when they are painful from doing too much work (I am a maker, not a player). It works wonders for me. I take glucosamine as tablets, too.

    I would advise caution in the use of Ibuprofen. I used it and it made me think I could work as normal. I didn't realize until later that I was damaging my thumb joints. Great for temporary relief though.

  26. #19
    Registered User misterstormalong's Avatar
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    Default Re: Arthritis

    It now takes up to two weeks to see a doctor in the UK - I'll keep you posted on the outcome! Whatever the cause of the problem (which is relatively mild at this stage), I've noticed that lateral pressure - like picking up a pint of beer - is the worst. That will encourage me to get my fingers square on and should improve my mandolin playing.

    When I first started doing chop chords I found I could move quickly from 245X to 2245 by leaning my first finger, but I guess that's bad practice in any event. I now lift my hand completely and put it back on again. If it is a strain problem I also blame the 7523 chord, but I do have a lot of joints affected so it's probably not just strain.

    I would prefer to stick with the mandolin as I'm really addicted to that Bluegrass rhythm, but I do play guitar a little and I have a 5-string banjo. I also have a concertina for English trad folk stuff.

    It's amazing how people do continue to play with serious disabilities and I have huge respect for them. I know somebody who has acute arthritis but manages to play both the banjo and the guitar in open tuning. They can also play melody on the mandolin, but not chords. Music is such a drug it's hard to give it up.

    Rik

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  28. #20

    Default Re: Arthritis

    I was having trouble with the middle knuckle on my index finger locking up. I think that's what some of you call rigger finger. Also had quite a bit of stiffness in my hands. Heard a lot about copper so I got a copper band ring with 2 magnets on it. It has done wonders. My knuckle no longer locks up and the stiffness in my hand is much better. For $10 I am impressed on how much it helped.

  29. #21

    Default Re: Arthritis

    Quote Originally Posted by misterstormalong View Post
    ... They can also play melody on the mandolin, but not chords. ...
    That's where I've been at for many years, other instruments too, not just mandolin. Fortunately (well that's debatable lol), I started out as an oldtime fiddler and banjo picker so the single-note melody stuff comes naturally, and it didn't take me too long to retune everything in the entire house to GDAE (tenor guitars, tenor banjos, regular guitars, etc) so at least the notes were in the 'right' places.

    More recently, I finally "went electric" which has been super helpful because of being able to use extra-light gauge strings and super-low action (low string height), while at the same time not losing any volume. Neat thing about electrics is that you *can* have really low action if you wish, because you can play with a really gentle touch so no worries about strings buzzing on the frets, because you don't need to thrash the instrument just to be heard (just turn up the volume knob a little).

    My experience, FWIW: Yes one has to keep moving, in arthritis, but careful with the weight-bearing part (for instance, fretting strings that require heavy finger pressure). For joints in general, think of the difference between walking and swimming - walking is weight-bearing whereas swimming allows movement without hurting as much. So back to fingers, trying to force myself to "do it anyway, no pain no gain" was foolish and (in my case) I finally realized that if I kept that up, I wouldn't be able to play at *all* due to increased damage to the joints. For instance, barre chords on a standard-tuned 12-string guitar, that didn't work out too well in the long run, nor did fancy jazz barre chords on a regular 6-string guitar. So I had to back off and pursue different ways of making music.

    Currently nearly all of my practice is done on electric instruments, they are easier on my finger joints.

    Nice side-effect to solid-body electric practice, is plugging in headphones (that disconnects the amplifier's speaker) so I can practice the same riff dozens of times over without driving other people insane.

    Quote Originally Posted by misterstormalong View Post
    ... Music is such a drug it's hard to give it up. ...
    Music is like air, it's essential for life, you shouldn't have to give it up. Even if a person is only able to press keys on a computer keyboard to enter notes into a MIDI music-writing app, that's still music as long as it satisfies the desire for music.

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  31. #22
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    Default Re: Arthritis

    I can no longer make the four note chords on mandolin so I have to rely on just three noters and I still get decent chop...In the mornings I run hot water in the sink and soak my hands in it for about five minutes and it really helps...I had to sort of give up playing the guitar because the first knuckle of the fretting hand won`t bend enough for me to make the C chord position, when I do play guitar I capo up the neck and play out of the D position to play in the key of G...

    There are ways to improvise if you put your mind to it, depends on how much you want to keep playing...

    Willie

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    Default Re: Arthritis

    I do the dishes in HOT water, it feel so good on my hands. I like Willie use three note chords, think I get better chop, but then I don't chord much anymore, but instead do fills and double stops.
    THE WORLD IS A BETTER PLACE JUST FOR YOUR SMILE!

  33. #24
    Registered User wildpikr's Avatar
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    Default Re: Arthritis

    Quote Originally Posted by Ivan Kelsall View Post
    From Bonnie - "As we age it's hard to adjust to the many changes in our bodies ....". Never a truer word spoken,& it seems like there's something new to ''adjust to'' every day. As one complaint subsides,another comes along to take it's place - oh well !!!,
    Ivan
    Hello Ivan,

    This post triggered a thought, an analogy perhaps...that as we age we become more like the description I've heard about mandolins being in tune...spending half of our time tuning up [feeling sort of okay] and the other half playing out of tune [wondering what's wrong]...
    Mike

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  35. #25

    Default Re: Arthritis

    Quote Originally Posted by misterstormalong View Post
    For the first time (and at the age of 63) this winter has brought noticeable tenderness in the joints of my fingers and wrists. It is aleviated by Ibuprofen, but I take it only as needed.

    The question is, will mandolin playing help to stave off or worsen the symptoms of arthritis?
    Turmeric with black pepper work for me. I have arthritis at the base of my left thumb.
    Stopped playing certain songs and chords about 10 years ago. I've been using turmeric mixed with black pepper for 3 years. I can now play those songs and chords as much as I want. Takes about 3 to 6 weeks for full benefit. It's well documented, cheap and in my and some close aquaintances experience, very effective.

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