chords for The Dillard's "Ground Hog"

[RickPick]

I can't figure them out! Please listen to the Dillards play the tune at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ffD8sZEQ69w and then maybe you can help me. I play the melody (in G major) no problem, but when I try to play chords, I lose it! Lots of chords for the general song "Ground Hog" are offered on the Web, but none of them quite fit. Is this seemingly "simple" song complicated by a modal key or what?!?

[sblock]

The chord sequence is this:

I / VII / I / I /
I / VII / V7 / V7 /
I / VII / I / I / I / V7 / I /

This happens to be a "crooked" tune, and yes, it's modal. Think of the rhythm as "boom-chuck","boom-chuck", and so on. Play a bass-note of the chord that's indicated on the "boom," and strum the very same chord again, now designated as a /, on the "chuck"!

In the key of G, I = G, VII = F, and V7 = D7 (you can also just play D).

Hope that helps. If you're still having trouble, just play along starting on G, and every time the song seems to need another chord for backup, try switching to F, D7 or back to G. It's gonna be one of those!

By the way, that Dillard recording is not in G -- it's in Bb! The chords in that key would be I = Bb, VII = Ab, and V = F. If you're just starting out, this is a much harder key to manage.

[RickPick]

Excellent! Thanks for your quick reply, sblock. I was missing the VII. I know the Dillard recording's not in G, but I was just transposing it to something that made more sense to me. The only song I play in Bb is "Lonesome Midnight Waltz," and I'm being self-congratulatory (and delusional...) to say I "play" it!! I haven't yet figured out why Monroe wrote it in Bb. I would only work in Bb if I wanted to sing and had a capo on my guitar. Lots to learn yet -- hope I live forever.

[Ivan Kelsall]

Quote - " I know the Dillard recording's not in G...". I've owned both Dillards LP's from when they first came out, & only the good Lord knows what keys the songs / tunes were in !!. The original tapes must have been done on a machine that was very inaccurate speed wise,or,the instruments simply weren't tuned to the correct pitch. Thank goodness my record player had electronically variable speed control so i could slow 'em down or speed 'em up !.

Here's the Riffstation offering :- https://play.riffstation.com/results,
Ivan

[Mandoplumb]

I have several mandolins none of which had a Bb.

[RickPick]

So is that like a piano with no black keys? I'm amazed that I've had so many decades of musical pleasure with my guitar, yet managed to understand so little about musical theory! Once I quit singing and started figuring out mandolin and fiddle, it got complicated real fast! But the pleasure is certainly still with me (my audience, maybe not so much....)

[sblock]

Excellent! Thanks for your quick reply, sblock. I was missing the VII. I know the Dillard recording's not in G, but I was just transposing it to something that made more sense to me. The only song I play in Bb is "Lonesome Midnight Waltz," and I'm being self-congratulatory (and delusional...) to say I "play" it!! I haven't yet figured out why Monroe wrote it in Bb. I would only work in Bb if I wanted to sing and had a capo on my guitar. Lots to learn yet -- hope I live forever.

Glad to help!

Not to be picky here, but Monroe's famous "Lonesome Moonlight Waltz" is not in the key of Bb -- it's in the key of F (or Dm, if you prefer, which is the relative minor of F). The tune basically starts out in Dm, then modulates to F for the bridge. The first part starts on a Dm chord and finishes on an F; and bridge part starts on a Bb chord, and ultimately returns to the sequence of the first part, ending again in F. The F scale that it uses has just one flat note (Bb), so perhaps you are confusing this with the name of the key? These things are not the same!

The chords go like this:

Dm// ///, F//, Dm//, Dm// ///, G//, A//, Dm// ///, F//, Dm//, C// ///, F//, (F7)//
Bb // ///, F// ///, G// ///, C//, A// (bridge)
Dm// ///, F//, Dm//, C// ///, F///


As for who wrote "Lonesome Moonlight Waltz" -- Bill Monroe gets the official credit, as he did for most everything his band recorded. But many believe that fiddler Kenny Baker is the true composer of this and the other great Monroe instrumental, "Jerusalem Ridge", which is in Am.

[CarlM]

I have several mandolins none of which had a Bb.

Stew Mac and LMI offer them as an add on. A good luthier can help you with the installation.

Bill Monroe gets the official credit, as he did for most everything his band recorded. But many believe that fiddler Kenny Baker is the true composer of this and the other great Monroe instrumental, "Jerusalem Ridge", which is in Am.

Both Kenny Baker and Bob Black are pretty firm that Bill Monroe wrote Jerusalem Ridge. Baker is on You Tube saying it. Bob wrote it in his book and I have heard him be pretty clear about it in person. He and Kenny Baker were pretty good friends and having heard how strongly he said it I am inclined to take his word.

[RickPick]

Picky is good! You gotta sweat the small stuff -- that's where the magic lurks. Interesting back story here. I was at a casual mandolin workshop with arguably one of the top 10-15 BG mandolin players in North America. He was playing a few bars to show us something about tremolo, and I liked the tune enough to ask him for its name: "Lonesome Midnight Waltz." The group tried to play along a bit, so we all had to get in the same key, which he said was Bb. Being an old folkie/country junky, I asked why it wasn't in a "normal" key like A, or D, or G? His answer: "I don't know. That's just what it was written in." He did go on to say that Bb was also a good, functional key (for reasons I don't remember and probably didn't understand). At the very beginning of his workshop, by the way, he said he had no formal music training and although he could read music, he could "just" read it. But can he ever play mandolin!!!! Anyway, that's my story and I'm stickin' to it!!!

[sblock]

...

Both Kenny Baker and Bob Black are pretty firm that Bill Monroe wrote Jerusalem Ridge. Baker is on You Tube saying it. Bob wrote it in his book and I have heard him be pretty clear about it in person. He and Kenny Baker were pretty good friends and having heard how strongly he said it I am inclined to take his word.

Interesting that you should bring this up. Actually, in his autobiographical book, "Come Hither to Go Yonder," Bob Black points out that the first recorded solo of WSM on the mandolin playing "Jerusalem Ridge" occurred when he played on the Kenny Baker album, "Kenny Baker Play Bill Monroe." Bob Black comments (on p. 107):

"It's interesting to note some of the differences Kenny Baker's interpretation of the tune and Bill's mandolin version. Some of the minor chords that sounded good behind Kenny's solo didn't necessarily complement Bill's solo (although we used the same chords behind both)."

In fact, the version that most folks play today at festivals and jams is the one based on Kenny's more lyrical, minor-sounding interpretation, and not on Bill's more ragged, major-inflected version. So I guess you might say that this tune was originally composed by Bill Monroe, but arranged by Kenny Baker! And to me, they both deserve great credit. A bunch of Bluegrass Boys stuff worked out that way, it seems. Baker was an awesome musician, regardless.

[CarlM]

It has been a while since I read the book. I have huge respect for all three of them. I understand the style of the song sure sounds Kenny Baker more than Bill Monroe. Bob lives not far from me and I am going by comments he made when someone suggested that Baker wrote the song. He is too polite to stand and argue but he was very direct in contradicting the person and saying Monroe wrote it. It still sounds a lot like there had to be some collaboration like you say but Bob was about as firm as he ever is in crediting Monroe.

[stevedenver]

I can't figure them out! Please listen to the Dillards play the tune at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ffD8sZEQ69w and then maybe you can help me. I play the melody (in G major) no problem, but when I try to play chords, I lose it! Lots of chords for the general song "Ground Hog" are offered on the Web, but none of them quite fit. Is this seemingly "simple" song complicated by a modal key or what?!?

I am sorry, and dont mean to be contradictory, but i have been playing and singing this as an opener for five years as the then epononmous namesake of my old band "groundhog riot."
Add that VII if you like.
But ;isten to bass, or at least when i did this AM, thinking i might have missed something, theres no VII (that i hear.) course im not perfect at these things. The melody indeed includes an F, but i think not, the changes.
Super simple 2 chord song, but where the V occurs changes between lines !

Play it real slow and sing
G=way down yonder in the fork in the branch D=way down yonder inthe fork in the branch G=the old sow whistles and the little pigs. dance D=ground G=hog D=Ground G=hog

To learn deans part on that , to my ear, 70ish F, I played along with my old lp, the one you picture.

Its a I and V, no VII to my ear. At least not today when tried the suggested VII changes. In fact that sounds way off. They did go "modal " in old man at the mill.
As for Bb, well back in the days of
Lps and analog tape, songs were often sped up a % or so to fit the limited time on an
Lp. Condensed before the days of auto tune. Faster tempo too.

Obviously i wasnt in the studio, but sure as shooting they are in A. My Dual 1219 turntable and others came with a speed adjustment so you could dial the. Lp to pitch, before the days of digital slow down. Jes my two cents.

[sblock]

I am sorry, and dont mean to be contradictory, but i have been playing and singing this as an opener for five years as the then epononmous namesake of my old band "groundhog riot."
Add that VII if you like.
But ;isten to bass, or at least when i did this AM, thinking i might have missed something, theres no VII (that i hear.) course im not perfect at these things.
Super simple song, but where the V occurs changes between lines !

To learn deans part on that , to my ear, 70ish F, I played along with my old lp, the one you picture.

Its a I and V, no VII to my ear. At least not today when tried the suggested VII changes. In fact that sounds way off. They did go "modal " in old man at the mill.
As for Bb, well back in the days of
Lps and analog tape, songs were often sped up a % or so to fit the limited time on an
Lp. Condensed before the days of auto tune. Faster tempo too.

Obviously i wasnt in the studio, but sure as shooting they are in A. My Dual 1219 turntable and others came with a speed adjustment so you could dial the. Lp to pitch, before the days of digital slow down. Jes my two cents.

Excellent two cents, and probably worth a full nickel! I agree with almost all of that. From the sound of the playing, the mandolin is surely playing out of "A" shapes and not "Bb" ones. So that tape was sped-up. In fact, the vinyl recording is not at a true Bb, either (based on A=440Hz), but it's closer to that than any other key! It's a vocal anyway, and not an instrumental, so there is no key that it "ought to be" played in, as part of some tradition. Play it wherever best suits your range, I say. As for me, I'd prefer A over Bb because the latter is a bit too high.

Also, the bass player is sure-as-shooting playing a straight I-V root sequence! The vocals, on the other hand, clearly inflect the VII chord. But how you choose to harmonize this tune is really up to you! For example, some super-traditional folks insist on just using a I-V sequence to back up "Old Joe Clark," although -- once again -- the vocal part seems to be begging for the VII. As for me, I "hear" a VII chord in "Ground Hog," (and also, like you, in "Old Man at the Mill"), and so do the folks I play with. So, leave it in or take it out, at your choosing.

[stevedenver]

Excellent two cents, and probably worth a full nickel! I agree with almost all of that. From the sound of the playing, the mandolin is surely playing out of "A" shapes and not "Bb" ones. So that tape was sped-up. In fact, the vinyl recording is not at a true Bb, either (based on A=440Hz), but it's closer to that than any other key! It's a vocal anyway, and not an instrumental, so there is no key that it "ought to be" played in, as part of some tradition. Play it wherever best suits your range, I say. As for me, I'd prefer A over Bb because the latter is a bit too high.

Also, the bass player is sure-as-shooting playing a straight I-V root sequence! The vocals, on the other hand, clearly inflect the VII chord. But how you choose to harmonize this tune is really up to you! For example, some super-traditional folks insist on just using a I-V sequence to back up "Old Joe Clark," although -- once again -- the vocal part seems to be begging for the VII. As for me, I "hear" a VII chord in "Ground Hog," (and also, like you, in "Old Man at the Mill"), and so do the folks I play with. So, leave it in or take it out, at your choosing.

Thank you. So refreshing to have civil discussion these days.
Indeed a I-V is about the most streamlined version many tune can be reduced to. Fwiw i do play old joe with that lovely VII, and, even worse ad ons and subs to walls of time...alas i digress

I would love to try your changes. I AM an old dog....but would love to learn.
And fwiw....i like Bb, as i sing in it sometimes. must be that Berklee influence, like a viral immunity to over exposure earlier in my life.LOL