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Thread: Tab vs ear

  1. #26
    Registered User Timbofood's Avatar
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    Default Re: Tab vs ear

    I hate tab but, it's one more tool in the box! The more you understand the easier they all become to use. I am an ear player more often than anything else. It's an aural thing for me anyway, reading is a skill I have not developed. There are as many opinions as musicians. I look at it as one more thing to understand.
    Timothy F. Lewis
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  2. #27
    harvester of clams Bill McCall's Avatar
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    Default Re: Tab vs ear

    Improvising is a whole other ballgame. But the deeper understanding of how music is constructed, i.e., keys, scales, chord tones, arpeggios and RHYTHM, will provide a path to your goal. Start small, keep all the melody notes (you of course have the melody down cold) and change the rhythm around one note or on a short phrase in your favorite songs. Build from there using clear tones and good dynamics.

    Btw, you probably won't get kicked out of a jam for playing the melody too well.

  3. #28
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    Default Re: Tab vs ear

    I use TAB more for figuring out how to get from "here" to "there" (fingering.) I can read music, my biggest issue is the most "economical" fingering to get the music played without getting my fingers all tangled up. I can play simple tunes by ear, but not complex ones.

  4. #29

    Default Re: Tab vs ear

    I have thought about this a lot. I started attending the jam (old time music) about 9 or 10 years ago. I could not play music by ear and about all I knew was where the notes were on my instrument. I didn't know any of the tunes. I was encouraged to play anyway.

    They told me to just try to get one note. Get that one note and really nail it. Then try to get two notes. Then try to get an outline of the tune and keep going until you've got it. 10 years later I can pick up new tunes on the fly, more or less. And even the old tunes I've been playing for 10 years seem to have more notes in them I didn't realize were there. Sometimes there are tunes I don't play at the jam where one day at home I decide to sit down and teach myself from the tune in my head. It's so liberating to be able to do this.

    You owe it to yourself to learn to do this. The notes/tabs/chord charts are a crutch. If you already know how to read that stuff, put it away until the ear learning is so within you that you can play a tune even before you've heard it played all the way through. You want to get to where you learn a tune one way and when you play with others who play it differently, you can play it the way they do without any trouble. Then you will be free.

  5. #30
    Registered User Ivan Kelsall's Avatar
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    Default Re: Tab vs ear

    Regardless of whether you decide to use TAB or standard music notation - ear playing is a must (IMO). TAB 'music is fine if you have it,but there will be times (maybe more often than not) when you don't have it,that's when ear playing really becomes important.
    In developing your ear playing / ear training,you train yourself to listen to the music so that you eventually have a 'mental recording' of it,something that you can draw on if you ever come to play it with others in a jam session. You'll also develop what i term a 'quick ear' - you'll be able pick up on a melody line & the chord changes to tunes you've never heard before very quickly, simply by listening. Also,i've met some players who've taught themselves purely from TAB,& that's all they can play - the TAB. They've never listened to the tunes in a 'band' context,only played them as a 'solo' instrument if you get my meaning. They also don't seem to be able to improvise on a tune - they're 'locked into' the TAB.
    I've taught myself to play banjo,guitar & now mandolin 'by ear'. I have used TAB (if i can find it), for tunes that i can't quite figure out,one part of Herschel Sizemore's recording of 'Grey Eagle' for example - but for the vast majority of the other tunes i've learned,there is no TAB or music.
    Do use TAB & music notation for their own purpose,but also use your ears. You're more likely to be carrying those around than TAB or music for most of what you'll want to play. To be in a position where you'd have to say - ''there's no TAB / music for it so i can't play it'', isn't a good place to be - ever,
    Ivan
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  7. #31
    Innocent Bystander JeffD's Avatar
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    Default Re: Tab vs ear

    I can read notation, but I find tab very useful, sometimes indispensable. I first discovered this when I was learning a Sierra Hull tune. The CD came with the sheet music, every other line tablature. I discovered that I am only strong sight reading in first position. To really get what Sierra was doing, I needed the tab.

    I recently got the two Todd Collins exercise books, and they are written alternately notation and tab, and I really need the tab to do the exercise right. The notation tells you what it will sound like, but the tab tells you how Todd wants you to play it, exactly what he wants you to work on. The combination of both is really helpful.
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  8. #32
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    Default Re: Tab vs ear

    Quote Originally Posted by Ivan Kelsall View Post
    Regardless of whether you decide to use TAB or standard music notation - ear playing is a must (IMO). TAB 'music is fine if you have it,but there will be times (maybe more often than not) when you don't have it,that's when ear playing really becomes important.
    In developing your ear playing / ear training,you train yourself to listen to the music so that you eventually have a 'mental recording' of it,something that you can draw on if you ever come to play it with others in a jam session. You'll also develop what i term a 'quick ear' - you'll be able pick up on a melody line & the chord changes to tunes you've never heard before very quickly, simply by listening. Also,i've met some players who've taught themselves purely from TAB,& that's all they can play - the TAB. They've never listened to the tunes in a 'band' context,only played them as a 'solo' instrument if you get my meaning. They also don't seem to be able to improvise on a tune - they're 'locked into' the TAB.
    I've taught myself to play banjo,guitar & now mandolin 'by ear'. I have used TAB (if i can find it), for tunes that i can't quite figure out,one part of Herschel Sizemore's recording of 'Grey Eagle' for example - but for the vast majority of the other tunes i've learned,there is no TAB or music.
    Do use TAB & music notation for their own purpose,but also use your ears. You're more likely to be carrying those around than TAB or music for most of what you'll want to play. To be in a position where you'd have to say - ''there's no TAB / music for it so i can't play it'', isn't a good place to be - ever,
    Ivan
    ...
    Thanks... I think Ivan summarized it well when he said: " Do use TAB & music notation for their own purpose,but also use your ears. You're more likely to be carrying those around than TAB or music for most of what you'll want to play. To be in a position where you'd have to say - ''there's no TAB / music for it so i can't play it'', isn't a good place to be - ever".... we always have our head and ears so that's where the music needs to be. Especially when one is out and about in a jam setting or with friends.... or just sitting outside by yourself. Of course, like many have said, Tab and Notation are useful and can be an excellent skill to have. I just don't want to rely on them for all playing - I'd just be tethered to the sheet of paper or terminal.

    One thread in this that I have enjoyed is that starting simple is a good way to get there, point being that even if my un-tethered playing is simple, play in tune and in time and then push the boundaries to expand. I was playing something very familiar last night, made a mistake that sounds kind of cool and then incorporated it into the melody. Couple more mistakes and I'll have something even more interesting.

    Thanks everybody, this is why this forum is so great!

    ... keep on pickin!

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  10. #33

    Default Re: Tab vs ear

    I do both. Sometimes I like learning from tabs. For example, I have 3 books with Bill Monroe tabs. It's nice to use these because I can figure out very quickly. Once I learn the melody from the tab book, especially Monroe tabs, I rarely play it the exact way again. I also have started transcribing music by ear on GuitarPro software. I use Audacity software to slowdown mp3s.

    I never play breaks while actually looking at tabs.

  11. #34
    Innocent Bystander JeffD's Avatar
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    Default Re: Tab vs ear

    Quote Originally Posted by Ivan Kelsall View Post
    To be in a position where you'd have to say - ''there's no TAB / music for it so i can't play it'', isn't a good place to be - ever,
    While I 100% agree, I think this is not the whole picture. Of equal importance, depending on what you play. Lest you think these are far fetched I will tell you that in my experience they are pretty common and realistic:

    "Look at this, a bunch of tunes from 1865 Dakota Territories. I wonder how they go. There is nobody playing them anymore and there is no recording of them anywhere...."

    "Wow all these tunes I have been playing all these years. I better spend time run through every tune I know every week or so so I don't forget them because if I forget something that predates Youtube and isn't in circulation at the jam its gone from me for ever..."

    "Hey look at this, a collection of 1100 old time fiddle tunes, most of which have not been recorded any time recently and few of which I have ever seen online and almost none of which my local jam ever heard of, imagine all the gems in there I can bring back into circulation..."
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  13. #35
    Mando-Accumulator Jim Garber's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JeffD View Post
    While I 100% agree, I think this is not the whole picture. Of equal importance, depending on what you play. Lest you think these are far fetched I will tell you that in my experience they are pretty common and realistic:

    "Look at this, a bunch of tunes from 1865 Dakota Territories. I wonder how they go. There is nobody playing them anymore and there is no recording of them anywhere...."

    "Wow all these tunes I have been playing all these years. I better spend time run through every tune I know every week or so so I don't forget them because if I forget something that predates Youtube and isn't in circulation at the jam its gone from me for ever..."

    "Hey look at this, a collection of 1100 old time fiddle tunes, most of which have not been recorded any time recently and few of which I have ever seen online and almost none of which my local jam ever heard of, imagine all the gems in there I can bring back into circulation..."
    My good friend and fellow musician, Harry Bolick, had that experience with fiddle tunes of Mississippi. He is currently on tour in the south to play these tunes and talk about them.
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  14. #36
    two t's and one hyphen fatt-dad's Avatar
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    Default Re: Tab vs ear

    Do you sing by ear or by dots? Clearly, we sing by ear. You have some melody in your head, and you ape it via the voice box.

    I think the dots (standard notation) reminds the musician what the melody sounds like (or the harmony). Then it's for the musician to convert that sound in the head to music. In singing, there is no tab, we don't even have this discussion? The dots tell us what to do and our training (muscle training) converts that to music.

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  16. #37
    Innocent Bystander JeffD's Avatar
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    Default Re: Tab vs ear

    My good friend and fellow musician, Harry Bolick, had that experience with fiddle tunes of Mississippi. He is currently on tour in the south to play these tunes and talk about them.

    Yes. I saw Harry at Lake Genero a year or so ago, and then got that book. It is a real gem. Not to derail the thread with praises of that book, but needless to say if I couldn't read I would really be missing a whole lot of great great fun.
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  17. #38
    Innocent Bystander JeffD's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fatt-dad View Post
    I think the dots (standard notation) reminds the musician what the melody sounds like (or the harmony). Then it's for the musician to convert that sound in the head to music. In singing, there is no tab, we don't even have this discussion? The dots tell us what to do and our training (muscle training) converts that to music.
    I know what you mean. But the voice is just another instrument, and just like other instruments, I know more than a few singers who sing from standard notation, some exclusively. (Whether they have to or not is a separate question.)

    But for some reason, it is relatively easy, I think, for everyone to sing by ear, at least to some level. And you are right, playing the instrument "by ear" is, or feels like, the same thing - with some mechanical nonsense in the way.
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  18. #39
    Registered User Timbofood's Avatar
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    As I said earlier, they are all tools.
    Having been publicly humiliated for not reading, the taste left in my mouth was rather bitter about it. I have not been much inclined to learn just to play with that bunch. I play what I hear and as moved by circumstance. I have been down this road before, I won't get drawn into a "Reading (or Tab) is something one MUST learn" debate again, I'd prefer to go play some music.
    Timothy F. Lewis
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    Innocent Bystander JeffD's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Timbofood View Post
    Having been publicly humiliated for not reading, the taste left in my mouth was rather bitter about it..
    If its any consolation, I have been publicly humiliated for reading, (or being "paper trained" as they say).
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  21. #41

    Default Re: Tab vs ear

    If you already know how to read music or tabs, you need to put it away so you can learn how to play by ear. Once you know how to do both, then do both. Otherwise, it's just too easy to fall back on the dots when you get frustrated.

    Admittedly, some genres and some tunes are a lot harder to do. Some Irish music is easy to learn by ear and some isn't. Some is almost classical in complexity. I just sit those ones out. I never found that it worked to learn Irish tunes by dots and then try to play them in the session, but that's maybe just me. So many notes, so fast -- I just can't do it. I stick to the ones that are easy to pick up.

  22. #42
    Registered User Timbofood's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JeffD View Post
    If its any consolation, I have been publicly humiliated for reading, (or being "paper trained" as they say).
    That's too bad, people can be so "narrow"! Read, do not read, go play!
    Timothy F. Lewis
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    Quote Originally Posted by almeriastrings View Post
    Worth being able to do both. I was trying to decipher a particular phrase off a recording just yesterday. Found a tab transcription... yes, it got the notes right (which was useful, because I could not hear them well enough on the recording) but the fingering was completely wrong... virtually unplayable. Transposed the notes to more sensible fingering and it all made sense, so use anything and everything that helps. Videos. Slow-downers. Tab. Ears. Experience.
    Exactly what I would have said.

    Let me add that written music is a great help for learning music, but playing by ear gives the ultimate freedom to play what you feel.

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    but that's just me Bertram Henze's Avatar
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    Default Re: Tab vs ear

    the world is better off without bad ideas, good ideas are better off without the world

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  26. #45
    Mando-Accumulator Jim Garber's Avatar
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    Default Re: Tab vs ear

    Quote Originally Posted by Timbofood View Post
    Having been publicly humiliated for not reading, the taste left in my mouth was rather bitter about it.
    Quote Originally Posted by JeffD View Post
    If its any consolation, I have been publicly humiliated for reading, (or being "paper trained" as they say).
    Years ago, in the last century, I was playing a concert of old time fiddle music and songs and a lovely woman came up to me at the end and told me she was absolutely amazed that we were able to play without music. I told her that the paper was not the music but that the sounds coming from our voices and instruments were the music. I am not sure she got that.
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  28. #46
    Innocent Bystander JeffD's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nashville View Post
    Let me add that written music is a great help for learning music, but playing by ear gives the ultimate freedom to play what you feel.
    Well...

    One might say that having the music in front of you frees you from the worry of losing the thread, getting lost, and perhaps one can play more confidently not having to worry if the long series of newly memorized notes will get garbled or fade.

    I can see it both ways.
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  29. #47
    Innocent Bystander JeffD's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Garber View Post
    Years ago, in the last century, I was playing a concert of old time fiddle music and songs and a lovely woman came up to me at the end and told me she was absolutely amazed that we were able to play without music..
    I have gotten that too, from local orchestra musicians who bump into one of our jams. I even heard: "I was surprised at the level of musicianship at your jam. I had no idea."

    We all get into our little boxes and then think that all of music is what fits in the box with us. Music itself is much bigger that whatever way we participate in it.
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  30. #48
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    I started playing mandolin at 19. I played in jam sessions with good musicians, and tried to learn by ear for 5 years. They insisted it was easier to learn by ear. I quit because I could play NOTHING! 5 years later I tried the mandolin again and got Ray Valla Bluegrass mandolin, followed by Harold Streeter tab and Dan Huckabee tab and Jack Tottle book. I finally learned to play with the tab, and transposed the tunes to different keys. I'm still learning and I can learn by ear now. That's just my experience.

  31. #49
    Registered User Ivan Kelsall's Avatar
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    Default Re: Tab vs ear

    A very valid point Jeff & very important if you're looking for old,forgotten tunes. However,if you are looking for such music,then it's very likely that you can already read music or the whole operation seems pointless,unless somebody else can play it for you - nevertheless,a very good point.

    When i began playing banjo back in 1963,i wanted to play Bluegrass music,which was almost unknown over here. I had the common sense to realise that any tuition on banjo would help,so i began lessons in 'Classic' banjo with a teacher,Sam Lomax.
    Sam was a terrific teacher & i got away with nothing. I had 3 pieces of music to learn each week & 'finger excercises' to do. If i only learned 2 pieces of music,i got my next 3 + the one i had left over. It took me around 3 months, but i was reading music pretty well 'at sight' by then. Unfortunately,Sam passed away very suddenly & i was left stranded. I did carry on learning from my tutor books,but right then,''The Beverly Hillbillies'' appeared on UK TV = end of Classic banjo. That was the begining of 'listening in order to learn'. It took me 3 years,but by the end of 1965,i had a band together.

    The tuition i received was very important,it got my fingers working in a co-ordinated manner & paved the way for what was to come. I do sometimes regret not having continued with my music reading,but at that time,for Bluegrass,there was nothing to read. These days,i'd maybe have done it differently.

    If you can read standard music notation,read TAB & play by ear,you've got the whole bag of tools & i'm envious of those who can do it,
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    Default Re: Tab vs ear

    Quote Originally Posted by sbhikes View Post
    They told me to just try to get one note. Get that one note and really nail it. Then try to get two notes. Then try to get an outline of the tune and keep going until you've got it.
    I love this attitude, but it's by no means pervasive in all genres.
    And now there was no doubt that the trees were really moving - moving in and out through one another as if in a complicated country dance. ('And I suppose,' thought Lucy, 'when trees dance, it must be a very, very country dance indeed.')

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