chords chords chords, learning chords.

[theCOOP]

I've been at this mandolin thing for like, five to eight years now. I tried very briefly to learn chords long ago but found it so difficult to get a clean sound that I gave up really before trying very hard.

I've gone a few times now to see a Sunday night bkuegrassy performance slash jam and I'd love to get up there.

So please tell me how you got over the sense that your fingers are too big? I realise I don't have abnormally big fingers or big at all for that matter.

I really need to get over this because the fear is keeping me from really enjoying the mandolin to its fullest potential, and pretty much keeping me from picking up either of my guitars for that matter.

[yankees1]

Five to eight years ? I guess I am missing something here ( unless you are posting this tongue in cheek ) but chords should be easier to learn than picking a typical Bluegrass style song. For me anyway ! If you are serious, try two finger chords if you can't master the four finger ones.

[General Johnston]

"I gave up really before trying very hard"

I have been playing about the same amount of time as you. When I started, I had trouble making clean chords. I just slowed down and practiced them clean. Now seven years later I still struggle, but this thing takes practice! Just like everything that you want to do well.

Since I've posted here, I want to also say I have noticed the more I practice the exact same thing, the more I get better at other things. Like iron sharpening iron, I benefit in multiple ways. And the other thing I'm learning is that the whole process is SLOW. I've got a life after all.

[MrYikes]

Regardless of whether the OP was joking, this is a question that I need answered. I gave up guitar because I couldn't get the first chord in a Hal Lennord beginner book (I tried for three days, but my fingers just could not conform)(I had spent 3 months of just running scales). I am hoping that mandolin is a better fit. What is a very good beginner chord book or instruction?

[Astro]

Chords are always hard on stringed instruments. You just have to keep practicing daily. Miss a few days and you are back to ground zero. Most of us were accomplished guitar players before switching to mando. That was a huge advantage. So we adapted quickly to chords on mando. I occasionally play with a very good violin/viola musician. She can read notes and play in the symphony. She likes to try my mando and does very well on leads. Chords totally befuddle her and she is a way better musician than me.

So my advice is to start with the simple 3 chord folk songs. Use 2 fingered shapes at first. Because you know the songs, it makes it easier to master the chords. Then after 6-12 months of easily switching chords in time to the song, start working on your 4 finger chords and give yourself a couple of years or more for those. If you play guitar, the mando bar chords will come easy and give you access to everything. They are hard on these old arthritic fingers but easy on the brain to find them. I've been playing about 4 years now I think. I have been a slow learner compared to those I've seen blow through this forum in that time but I'm steadily improving. I now mostly use 4 fingered chords on G shape and 3 fingered ones on D shape but I can do both. I use a lot of bar based chords but I'm transitioning them into a 3 fingered chord shapes because of arthritis that the bar chords have caused.

You can find all the shapes and the simple songs to go with them on utube lessons. Thats how I learned. When I got in a band with a better guitar player and I was forced to be the mandolin player, thats when things really accelerated for my learning. Now I only botch it live 3 or 4 times per song . Then once you free yourself to make lots of mistakes in front of others and realize no one cares, thats when you really start to take off. Good luck and have fun !

[choctaw61]

I bought my mandolin two years ago.Decided I was gna learn to play an instrument after my Harley and I tied up with a red oak tree which fell across the hyway.I really haven't had most of the motion in my left arm except for the last eight months or so(I'm left handed).So strumming and holding the pick is more the problem for me.As for chording I make a chord then play each set of strings readjust fingers if they aren't sitting right then strum and play individually again.mainly chords i have problems forming.I also do lots of finger stretches.It's hard regardless starting out.don't let fear hold u back from something u enjoy.Eight years U may hold Ur own better than U think.lol.Good luck.

[Mandobart]

I started on violin, then picked guitar, then many years later mandolin. I can remember learning chords on guitar was a big change from violin. One thing that helped me was musical context - learning chords was more fun and made more sense to me when I was also learning a song.

I had (still have!) two songbooks; "The Eagles Complete" and Neil Young's "Decade." These books had the standard format of notation (treble and bass clef for pianists), the lyrics and the guitar chord diagram (not just the name) above the treble clef. That way I didn't have to keep flipping over to a chord diagram. Here is what I did - the first time a G chord would show up I would attempt the chord on my guitar. I played each string one by one, adjusting my fingers until each note sounded clean, unmuted. Then the next chord, say a D. Same routine - adjust finger position and pressure until each note sounds right. Now the tune goes back to a G, ok this time its a little easier to get it right. These were songs I had listened to multiple times so I knew what they were supposed to sound like. It would take me a while to get through a tune but each time it was a little easier, a little better. I was 13 years old, had lots of time and spent probably two hours a day doing this. I could get through two to three songs a day which felt like a good accomplishment.

For most of the cafe demographic, with jobs, families and old man hands that cramp up easier I would recommend adjusting goals accordingly.

[lenf12]

In 5 to 8 years of trying to play mandolin, I would take a more analytical approach to figuring out why you can't play chords cleanly. Perhaps you are trying to cram all 4 fingers into a particular 4 note chord shape when you may be able to get away with just 3 (or fewer) fingers (and/or notes). The bluegrass G "chop" chord (7 5 2 3) will require all 4 fingers but they are spread apart enough horizontally so your fingers should not be crowding each other. The A "power" chord (2 2 0 0) can be played with just the tip of your index finger with just a bit of practice. You don't need to play it with 2 fingers.

Where I initially ran into this problem was when playing adjacent strings at the same fret like the A power chord above. Trying to squeeze that 2nd finger under the 1st caused me a lot of frustration and sloppy chord playing. Realizing that I could play them with just 1 finger led me to explore other examples of chord shapes having adjacent notes at the same frets; the familiar AMaj7 shape 2 2 4 4 as an example. I play this chord with 2 fingers, 2 2 with index finger tip and 4 4 with a ring finger barre. My fingers are not at all crowded which cleaned up my chords a lot. I do have small hands but my fingers are not at all slender. They're kinda short and stubby. It also helped to realize that I don't need to play 4 note chords all the time. 2 and 3 note chords are very accepted and even preferred for a great deal of the musical styles (even BG) we play. The G chop chord can be a 2 finger chord playing just the 7 5 and muting the rest of the strings.

Try it again is all I can say!!

Len B.
Clearwater, FL

[theCOOP]

Wow, just coming back to this. Still have a lot to catch up on. It's no joke.

I took some lessons from two different guys years ago and when it came to doing chords, I couldn't do it. I'd get my fingers in the right place but couldn't keep one finger from melting another. The longer I tried, holding my fingers against the strings, it just killed.

I have no difficulty picking single note melodies in celtic and old-time. I don't find it difficult at all.

I can bar two and maybe three strings on the same fret when necessary instead of lifting my fingers and changing position, but that's the extent so far.

[RichardF]

To deviate slightly, but not attempt a hijack I have to admit that having played for many years I rarely play full chords-I just don't like the sound of the fifths tuning for chording. GDAD tuning does chords so much better for Celtic playing, Guitar is better for vocal accompaniments. I've even done some things on Tenor Uke! On mandolin I play counter melodies or double stops rarely more. For me it's horses for courses but that's only my opinion.

[JeffD]

Well here is a way to get going.

You don't have to cover all four notes of the chord. You don't. I do a lot of three note chords, leaving either the top or the bottom string open (and not struck). You can even chop, as long as you don't fly in from a distance.

My philosophy is that somebody, the guitar or the banjo, or some other mandolinner, will be supplying the note I am missing. I don't have to be responsible for every darn note in the chord. And to the casual listener (not one of us mandolinners) and even to a bluegrass fan, it sounds fine. Nobody will notice. Especially in that when the mandolin is chopping, its because someone else has the spot light, either a break or vocals. I mean how perfect do you have to be when nobody is particularly listening?

Three finger chords are much easier to get into and out of quickly and they are more portable as they can be moved across the neck, not just up and down the neck.

If you don't want to say here on the forum that you tried it and that is what you are doing, I will understand.

[jaycat]

Try lighter gauge strings?

(Go Nats!)

[Mark Gunter]

I tried very briefly to learn chords long ago but found it so difficult to get a clean sound that I gave up really before trying very hard.

I gave up guitar because I couldn't get the first chord in a Hal Lennord beginner book (I tried for three days, but my fingers just could not conform)

A lot of advice given here, I have to chime in, even though mine may be the least popular response, it bears writing it, because I believe it's the truth of the matter. This response applies to both theCOOP and MrYikes, based on what you guys have written.

I think you've answered your own questions very well. "I gave up really before trying very hard." Because it was so difficult to get a clean sound.

Likewise, "I tried for three days, but my fingers just could not conform"

These posts reveal a great deal. Conjecture would be that you guys have not been given the proper encouragement to keep at it. Also, perhaps you somehow got an unrealistic expectation of how easy the very beginning stages of chording stringed instruments would be. And, perhaps, not a strong enough desire to learn chording.

There is no judgment in what I write there, and no shame in not wanting to learn to play chords. This is something a person will either do, or won't do. But I think both you guys should be properly encouraged.

First off, know that learning to make good-sounding chords on a stringed instrument is not easy for anyone. If you want to do this, you will struggle to get your fingers positioned correctly, you will suffer through some bad sounding attempts, and the more you try and the closer you get to doing it, the more your fingers will hurt. That's the bad news. The good news is that very soon, your fingers will stop hurting, your brain will adjust your fingers in time to get the sound you want, and someday soon, after you commit to this, you will wonder why it ever seemed so hard to begin with.

Unfortunately, the difficulty involved in fretting a stringed instrument is so great in the beginning that some people choose not to master it. Many are those who would play guitar or some such instrument, but after a few attempts at learning, find it too hard and quit. No shame there, it is what it is. Those who went through the difficulty and crappy sound and timing years ago and persevered may easily forget the difficulties first encountered. Yet, the greatest player you admire went through this same struggle at some point, when they first started. No one is born playing these things. Prodigies go through days and weeks of finger contortion too, when they first start. Just ask them.

So, I may be wrong, and wouldn't be the first time, but my advice is just this: persevere. 3 days is not enough time for any reasonable human to play clean chords on a guitar, sorry. If you give up that quickly, then you can't do it. Truth.

Persevere. And with that advice, a promise: If you do persevere, you'll be able to play good-sounding chords in a matter of weeks with daily practice and your fingers will stop hurting. After that comes a lifetime of learning different positions, inversion, rhythmic patterns, etc. You'll never stop learning. You may not always play as cleanly as the pros, but with some perseverance, you can play some good-sounding chords.

[Mandoplumb]

I agree 100% with Mark Gunter, just like to add one thing. If you put forth the effort and learn you will enjoy music for the rest of your life, no matter if you're 6 or 60. Do you ever hear 60 year old football player or an 80 year old race car driver talk of football or racing. It is always in the past tense, what they have done or were capable of. A 90 year old musician will take a mandolin and show you what he still can do.

[Gelsenbury]

Just to add a couple of things because I don't think they've been mentioned yet:

First, not all mandolins are equal. You have several mandolins - do the chords seem equally difficult on all of them? You also say you feel as if you have big fingers - does a wider fingerboard help? As a rule, "bluegrass" mandolins are pretty much made for chop chords, with relatively small distances between frets and strings. "Celtic" mandolins sometimes have more space on the fretboard. For me, this means that I haven't really progressed beyond two-finger chords because the stretch is too uncomfortable. You may have a different experience.

Second, chord playing will hurt your fingers more than melody playing, because all your fingers are doing more fretting. Practising little and often should help reduce the frustration, as will a good set-up to ensure that your action is no higher than it needs to be. Lighter strings may be a good idea too, as jaycat says.

[Beanzy]

Think of the long game. Maybe just treat it as something you do for ten minutes every practice, then focus one practice a week on more detail, so you give yourself more to focus on in those ten minute chunks in the days ahead. You build the wall brick by brick.

Sometimes it can be intimidating to look at what seem like endless variations and patterns that are possible, rather than looking first at what is necessary.
Learn the basic patterns that govern 3 fingered chords, major and minor first.
The wonderful thing about the mandolin is that if you choose a note as your root then; the fifth is one course thinner, same fret & the third is one course fatter, back one fret. Minor puts that back two frets. That's your basic structure which gets you good accessible 3note chords to get going. Obviously you'll need to expand this and modify it with other information once you're on top of the basics. But by then, you'll have the root, third, fifth pattern locked into your fingers.

I used Frank Geigers book to get loads more once I had those basics down.
http://www.calgaryuke.com/ukerichard...nstruments.pdf

And yes there are mandolins that will defeat those of us who are fat fingered, but you can get one made with a wider nut etc which is what I did & it's a big releif & freedom when you do. But a tight fit won't prevent you getting going to a decent level.

[Petrus]

Same problem here, mostly work around it by playing to my strengths. Not all chords are equally difficult. Learn some ones that are easy for you. These are probably going to be most of the 2 and maybe a few 3 finger chords. You can go pretty far with these alone. There may also be alternatives to additional chords that are easier for you than standard shapes.

Guitar is tougher as noted, but I do the same thing. I have a handful of two and three finger shapes I stick to and a few alternates of other types. I also use non-standard tuning a lot (DADGAD etc.) Or tenor guitar where you only have four strings to worry about.

Also focus more on melody line playing as opposed to chords.

This will limit you somewhat, but there's still a lot you can do with this, and it will be your unique if idiosyncratic sound. If you're embarrassed for some reason, play with your back to the audience like some of the old bluesmen would do so watchers couldn't steal their techniques.

[theCOOP]

Thank you everybody for your input and encouragement

I know there is nothing abnormal about my hands. When I was deciding what instrument I wanted to learn, guitar seemed boring and generally chord playing seemed like cheating to me...as though it took more skill to pick the melody. I now realise it's all part of the same thing and if I want to play with others I need other skills as well.

Just gotta figure out where to start over from. :/ The Flatiron has lighter strings and perhaps a slightly wider fretboard.

I've considered concentrating on the guitar for a while...learn some CCR and similar chord playing maybe.

[T.D.Nydn]

[QUOTE=JeffD,,





Three finger chords are much easier to get into and out of quickly and they are more portable as they can be moved across the neck, not just up and down the neck.....

this is my approach also..you can get an awlful lot of mileage out of this study, that and movable double stops,,also, you can often just percussive chop, nobody really notices....

[wildpikr]

Thank you everybody for your input and encouragement

I know there is nothing abnormal about my hands. When I was deciding what instrument I wanted to learn, guitar seemed boring and generally chord playing seemed like cheating to me...as though it took more skill to pick the melody. I now realise it's all part of the same thing and if I want to play with others I need other skills as well.

Just gotta figure out where to start over from. :/ The Flatiron has lighter strings and perhaps a slightly wider fretboard.

I've considered concentrating on the guitar for a while...learn some CCR and similar chord playing maybe.

Check out Mike Marshall's DVD on chord theory...

https://www.homespun.com/shop/produc...players-dvd-2/

He has large hands also and talks about it in the video with reference to making chords...hope this helps.

[theCOOP]

I know I referenced "bluegrass" and the Sunday night jams in my first post so it's reasonable that everybody is talking chop chords and double stops et al, but are these useful for anything other than "bluegrass"?

Those Sunday night jams imo are more old-time than Bluegrass. Maybe I'm wrong but to me it seems Foghorn Stringband is also more old-time than bluegrass.

My primary interest has never been bluegrass but rather Old-Time and Celtic. So I figured I could get away with just single-note picking.

The two instructures I tried to work with were determined to teach me bluegrass only so I guess that was part of my frustration.

[cscolman]

I've been playing for about 2.5 years..I find the bar chords easier than the standard chop chords..so I practise those looking at major chord..minor chord and 7 chord..also switching between I IV and V cord in a key...i find the std G chop cord hard for my pinky reach..i have small hands so it is not th e same issue of finger size..it is more rhe reach and strength of pinky. I agree on the practise..practice..practice..take it slow and repetitive and all of a sudden you will turn a corner

[CarlM]

I can speak to this from a different perspective than most because I can say my hands are not normal. I had to relearn how to play guitar after 25 years due to a bad hand injury that does not allow me to make chords in a normal manner. The same applies to mandolin. In relearning there was a lot I have found out about hand mechanics. Here are a few thoughts.

Start with simple chords you can play, like some have suggested, use two finger chords. Make sure your form is correct using the tip of the finger, not the sides. Look at video of the best players to see what it should look like. Work at it every day for at least 15 minutes changing back and forth between chords with a metronome. Over time, as in months or years, you will gain more mobility in your fingers and be able to reach more complicated shapes.

Do not push too hard. Most people press too hard on the strings. That locks the joints and prevents movement. To test this, just touch the string so it clicks when you pick on it. Keep picking and press slightly harder and slightly harder till you just get it to sound without rattling. That is how hard you should be pressing. Anything more hurts your playing.

Make sure your hand and the instrument are in the right position for you and use a strap. Little differences of neck angle and wrist angle make all the difference in whether you can reach a chord or not. You have to experiment because everyone's body and instrument are different. Your wrist should be mostly straight or you will invite carpal tunnel syndrome.

Yes, chords and double stops are used in all forms of music. By not understanding them you are limiting yourself very badly. Keeping rhythm and playing good backup is more important than melody. I practice rhythm playing on guitar and mandolin every night. You are probably making the people around you unhappy if you are playing with others. There is a fellow who comes to jams near where I live that everyone hates to see enter the room. He won't play chords and does not understand backup. He will noodle through everything playing leads to impress himself and over the top of everyone. You do not want to be that guy. No one else wants you to be that guy either.

A good teacher can help a lot. You have to trust the teacher and follow through with practice. The basics are the same whether it is bluegrass, celtic or old time. It takes much more time than you expect. Anyone playing at even an intermediate level has not spent hundreds of hours but thousands in making it work.

[s1m0n]

If chords are tough, try focussing on tunes for a while. If you can learn to pick melody cleanly, your hands will get a lot more comfortable on the instrument, and you'll feel more accomplished. More like the jump to chording is temporary step back that you know you can solve, once you get your muscle memory adjusted. This is likely easier for someone like me, who comes from melody-oriented Irish music.

And muscle memory matters. If you're smart, you're used to learning intellectual things quickly and easily. Music seems simple. It's easy to get the intellectual part of any new musical skill in an hour or two. If you're used to getting there and then thinking you've won, music will be very frustrating. There's an intellectual component, but music is primarily a physical, not an intellectual skill. You need to get the moves into ballistic memory - into the nerves in your arms and fingertips. If you need to wait for the thought to travel from your fingertip all the way to your brain (and back) where your powerful intellect can jump in & help, you'll never be fast enough. Intellect can never train muscle memory. The only thing that works is repetition. Intelligent, accurate practice to be sure, but practice overall. This is slower than smart people like to learn things, IMO.

However, a little patience goes a long way. Regular practice (or simply 'regularly playing') and a willingness to suck for 6 or 8* weeks will get you started. All you need to do from there is to keep going. I'm living proof that sufficient determination can compensate for very little innate talent.

** Weeks of effort. Let's say 35-40 actual sessions of at least 20-30 minutes each. It's better to practice often than to practice long. You're far better off playing a new piece and quitting while you're still getting it right than playing for an hour while it turns to mush. But keep going as long as you're having fun. You're doing it for teh fun, remember?

[onassis]

I know I referenced "bluegrass" and the Sunday night jams in my first post so it's reasonable that everybody is talking chop chords and double stops et al, but are these useful for anything other than "bluegrass"?

Chords and double-stops serve the same function, no matter the genre or style of music. The differences in the genres comes in the style, context or rhythm in which the chords are played.

It might be useful to refer to Pickloser's Guide to Doublestops, just to get a feel for 2-note chords up and down the fretboard. I play mostly BG, but lately I've been using more doublestops than 3 or 4 fingered chords. Once you learn the "trick" of doublestops, you can do quick chord changes while seeming to barely move the fretting hand. When playing in a group setting, most any chord can be approximated by 2 notes.

The only downside to this is that I got there by years of playing 4 finger chords. Hopefully, there's a short-cut to gaining some deeper understanding of chord theory.