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Thread: Hornpipe rhythm vs reel; mandolin vs fiddle on hornpipes

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    Default Hornpipe rhythm vs reel; mandolin vs fiddle on hornpipes

    If this is a duplicate discussion, I apologize. I couldn't find another one.

    For years and years, I asked fiddlers to tell me / show me the difference between hornpipe and reel rhyhms. I could not get cogent or meaningful answers.

    A few months ago I found this recording. The player is doing the same tune, first as a a reel, then as a hornpipe. (I don't know what the tune is, but that doesn't matter.) https://vimeo.com/35325677

    I also found two dance links.

    hornpipe dancing:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EgZTxsvWi_4


    Reel dancing:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hvHeTArCnYQ

    I've been discussing hornpipe rhythm with some fiddlers online. So far, I have gotten a bunch of complicated, technical comments about bowing and notation styles.

    I play Rickett's Hornpipe on the mandolin as a hornpipe, with dotted rhythm like the links I post here. One fiddler says hornpipes are played with a backbeat, but the fiddler did not send an audio or video to illustrated this. Anyone know whether mandolin players play hornpipes with a backbeat -- and can provide a link to a back-beat hornpipe?

  2. #2

    Default Re: Hornpipe rhythm vs reel; mandolin vs fiddle on hornpipes

    Both hornpipes and reels are played in many different ways. For example the hornpipe with dancing clip you show is of competition dancing which has complicated steps and therefore the horpipes are played pretty slow. On the other hand Fisher's hornpipe as played by a bluegrass band will probably be faster than anything played by an Irish style player.

    So it depends on whether you're asking about Irish music or American music or another style. However, for Irish music here's a hornpipe into reel set by two nice players, Kevin Burke and John Carty.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4plCacl4DQ0

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    Orrig Onion HonketyHank's Avatar
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    Default Re: Hornpipe rhythm vs reel; mandolin vs fiddle on hornpipes

    There are several discussions on this topic at thesession.org. All I can say is it's a good thing that the internet doesn't do fisticuffs. The best advice I got was to follow the degree of 'dottedness' or 'swing' that is customary with the session in which you are participating. It will almost certainly vary from one session to another and maybe even from one tune to another.

    A tip I just learned, more or less along these lines: If you find a tabledit file of a hornpipe, it will almost certainly be written as straight eighth notes instead of some swing or dottedness. You can force a more hornpipy rhythm on playback by moving the cursor to the beginning of the tune, then going to "MIDI Options" and changing the syncopation level to 1. I am not sure you can do this with the free TablEdit reader, but it works in the full version.

  4. #4

    Default Re: Hornpipe rhythm vs reel; mandolin vs fiddle on hornpipes

    Hello, HonketyHank and ampyjoe. Very good information from both of you. Thanks so much. I like what Ampyjoe says about various ways to play hornpipes and reels. And I am, well....amused? ha ha by HonketyHank's remarks that "it's a good thing that the internet doesn't do fisticuffs." Also, I like your "The best advice I got was to follow the degree of 'dottedness' or 'swing' that is customary with the session in which you are participating. It will almost certainly vary from one session to another and maybe even from one tune to another." This is so basic -- yes, that's just the way things ARE, isn't it? Duh, says me, and here I was trying to figure out how to do it.....

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    Innocent Bystander JeffD's Avatar
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    Default Re: Hornpipe rhythm vs reel; mandolin vs fiddle on hornpipes

    Quote Originally Posted by stringalong View Post
    It will almost certainly vary from one session to another and maybe even from one tune to another." This is so basic -- yes, that's just the way things ARE, isn't it? .
    And from one player to another.

    Hornpipes in general swing or bounce more than a reel, like dotted eighth sixteenth, (apple apple apple apple) but I have rarely seen a hornpipe written out that way. If I play a hornpipe as if it were a reel, with straight eighths (watermelon watermelon), to me it just sounds boring.

    I error the other way. I tend to bounce my reels a little too much.
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    Default Re: Hornpipe rhythm vs reel; mandolin vs fiddle on hornpipes

    Thanks, JeffD. Yes, from one player to another. Everyone on this thread has so much to offer to the discussion. Thanks, all!

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    but that's just me Bertram Henze's Avatar
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    Default Re: Hornpipe rhythm vs reel; mandolin vs fiddle on hornpipes

    Rhythmically, a hornpipe played the Irish way is more related to a jig than to a reel. They write them in 4/4 with dotted quarters and and eighths, but they play them like 6/8 with quarters and eighths, i.e.
    not like (8-8-8) 8 (8-8-8) 8
    rather like (8-8) 8 (8-8) 8
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    Default Re: Hornpipe rhythm vs reel; mandolin vs fiddle on hornpipes

    Quote Originally Posted by Bertram Henze View Post
    Rhythmically, a hornpipe played the Irish way is more related to a jig than to a reel. They write them in 4/4 with dotted quarters and and eighths, but they play them like 6/8 with quarters and eighths, i.e.
    not like (8-8-8) 8 (8-8-8) 8
    rather like (8-8) 8 (8-8) 8
    I'd be more inclined to say that an Irish hp can be closer to 12/8 than 4/4 or 6/8. The odd-numbered notes (in a run of 8th notes) can be swung to nearly twice the length of the even notes. Do the math, and that comes out to 12/8. Many Irish hornpipes (eg Harvest Home) break into a bar or more of triplets, showing how close the underlying structure is to 12/8. Jig time has a different feel.

    Given that different players, styles, and regions swing hornpipes to differing degrees, however, it makes sense to notate them in 4/4 - that's what the various versions have in common - and to trust the musician to add the right amount of 'lift'.
    And now there was no doubt that the trees were really moving - moving in and out through one another as if in a complicated country dance. ('And I suppose,' thought Lucy, 'when trees dance, it must be a very, very country dance indeed.')

    C.S. Lewis

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    Registered User Manfred Hacker's Avatar
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    Default Re: Hornpipe rhythm vs reel; mandolin vs fiddle on hornpipes

    I think for most of us mortals on this forum the degree of dottedness also depends on the tempo. Once I get beyond 180 bpm (quarter notes) it gets increasingly difficult to play bouncy hornpipes with barrages of triplets. You can't play dotted if you are hanging on for life!
    Only the very best can play real fast, clean and with a dotted feel.
    Last edited by Manfred Hacker; Oct-08-2016 at 6:42pm.
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    Default Re: Hornpipe rhythm vs reel; mandolin vs fiddle on hornpipes

    Yes, Manfred, so true.

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    Default Re: Hornpipe rhythm vs reel; mandolin vs fiddle on hornpipes

    I have this really strange problem with reels: I find it hard to play all those notes fast enough in 4/4 time. The rhythm is the simplest conceivable, but it feels as if there weren't enough way markers or white space for orientation. So I often find myself swinging the rhythm while practising. This turns the tune into something more like a hornpipe or march, and strangely, makes me feel less lost.

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    Registered User cbakewell's Avatar
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    Default Re: Hornpipe rhythm vs reel; mandolin vs fiddle on hornpipes

    Quote Originally Posted by ampyjoe View Post

    So it depends on whether you're asking about Irish music or American music or another style. However, for Irish music here's a hornpipe into reel set by two nice players, Kevin Burke and John Carty.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4plCacl4DQ0
    I agree 100%

    FWIW, I was taught how to dance the 'English old-style' hornpipe (not a 'thing'. just the only way I can think of to describe it) about 40 years ago. Think rough and ready sailors on a masted ship rather than fancy steps and competition stuff.

    I can still do a few steps - about 15 seconds worth before my aging frame gives up.

    The 'feel' of clip posted seems about right to me - although a tad faster would be easier to dance to.
    Colin Bakewell

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    Registered User Ausdoerrt's Avatar
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    Default Re: Hornpipe rhythm vs reel; mandolin vs fiddle on hornpipes

    Well, FWIW, Marla Fibish, whose Irish mando lessons I've been watching over at Peghead Nation, does swing her reels. Not as much as hornpipes, but pronounced enough. I personally like how that sounds.

    In addition, practicing fast passages of anything in dotted rhythm is a common and effective exercise.

    Quote Originally Posted by JeffD View Post
    Hornpipes in general swing or bounce more than a reel, like dotted eighth sixteenth, (apple apple apple apple) but I have rarely seen a hornpipe written out that way. If I play a hornpipe as if it were a reel, with straight eighths (watermelon watermelon), to me it just sounds boring.
    Interesting, cause the explanation I've seen and that made the most sense is that actually the hornpipes are played with emphasis on 1 and 3 (i.e. Watermelon Watermelon), while with the reels every other note is accented (i.e. Apple Apple Apple Apple).
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    Default Re: Hornpipe rhythm vs reel; mandolin vs fiddle on hornpipes

    Isn't it amazing how many interpretations of hornpipe rhythm there are/can be? Little did I know that, when I started this rendition of the thread on hornpipes. Yes, Ausdoerrt, this is so true of me: " I personally like how that sounds." i.e. whatever I do, which is like the links I posted here already. I will listen to Marla Fibish, whose Irish mando lessons I've been watching over at Peghead Nation --- really looking forward to hearing her!

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    Default Re: Hornpipe rhythm vs reel; mandolin vs fiddle on hornpipes

    edited
    And now there was no doubt that the trees were really moving - moving in and out through one another as if in a complicated country dance. ('And I suppose,' thought Lucy, 'when trees dance, it must be a very, very country dance indeed.')

    C.S. Lewis

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    Innocent Bystander JeffD's Avatar
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    Default Re: Hornpipe rhythm vs reel; mandolin vs fiddle on hornpipes

    Quote Originally Posted by Ausdoerrt View Post

    Interesting, cause the explanation I've seen and that made the most sense is that actually the hornpipes are played with emphasis on 1 and 3 (i.e. Watermelon Watermelon), while with the reels every other note is accented (i.e. Apple Apple Apple Apple).
    Shows the limitations of fruit rhythm. I pronounce "watermelon" pretty evenly, without much emphasis, the way I play a reel but how could one know that. And by "apple" I meant that I pronounce with the "ap" being longer and emphasized over the "ple".

    If you are familiar with morse code, I conceive of a hornpipe rhythm as _ . _ . _ . _ .
    and a reel as . . . . . . . .

    The emphasis you mention in reels, is, in general in my experienced, really toned down. And at some of the speeds reels are played at its more like eight staccato bursts from a machine gun.
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    Mando-Accumulator Jim Garber's Avatar
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    Default Re: Hornpipe rhythm vs reel; mandolin vs fiddle on hornpipes

    Quote Originally Posted by stringalong View Post
    If this is a duplicate discussion, I apologize. I couldn't find another one.
    Not a duplicate thread but similarly discussed on this thread.
    Jim

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    Default Re: Hornpipe rhythm vs reel; mandolin vs fiddle on hornpipes

    Thanks, Jim. I appreciate the link to a previous, similar discussion. I found out somewhere (Maybe the Fiddle Hangout) that The Session forum has maybe 8 separate threads on hornpipe vs reel rhythm. There's also a discussion at the Fiddle Hangout.

  19. #19

    Default Re: Hornpipe rhythm vs reel; mandolin vs fiddle on hornpipes

    Just got this email....but can't find simon's post here. Here's what the email says:

    Simon has offered a lot of good info here, too. s1m0n has just replied to a thread you have subscribed to entitled - Hornpipe rhythm vs reel; mandolin vs fiddle on hornpipes - in the Old-Time, Roots, Early Country, Cajun, Tex-Mex forum of Mandolin Cafe Forum.

    This thread is located at:
    http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/sh...s&goto=newpost

    Here is the message that has just been posted:
    ***************
    The OP concerned american old time hornpipes. I responded with info about Irish HPs. We need to consider, however, english country-dance 3/2 hornpipes, which completely unlike what we know. These are the melodies that are commonly called seaman's hornpipes. The association, however, comes from an 18th C stage play with a "sailor's chorus". Real sailors didn't get a vote.

    There are a bunch of Playford tunes

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    Registered User Ausdoerrt's Avatar
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    Default Re: Hornpipe rhythm vs reel; mandolin vs fiddle on hornpipes

    Quote Originally Posted by JeffD View Post
    Shows the limitations of fruit rhythm. I pronounce "watermelon" pretty evenly, without much emphasis, the way I play a reel but how could one know that. And by "apple" I meant that I pronounce with the "ap" being longer and emphasized over the "ple".

    If you are familiar with morse code, I conceive of a hornpipe rhythm as _ . _ . _ . _ .
    and a reel as . . . . . . . .

    The emphasis you mention in reels, is, in general in my experienced, really toned down. And at some of the speeds reels are played at its more like eight staccato bursts from a machine gun.
    Yeah, so moving away from the fruit rhythm

    The rhythm part you mentioned is really subjective, and I've seen it vary from person to person. It's more pronounced in hornpipes, I think, cause they aren't usually played as fast as reels. But in the Marla Fibish lessons I've mentioned, when she plays the reels slowly, she also does the _ . _ . _ . _ . It just sort of goes away the faster you play.

    So the way I've understood it, the difference between hornpipe and reel is in emphasis/accents more so than rhythm, because both are essentially the same at 4/4. So in hornpipes, the ONE and THREE are emphasized, while in reels it's more even, with a light emphasis on every beat.

    So hornpipe: ONE - and-a - THREE - and-a - ONE etc.
    Reel: ONE-and-TWO-and-THREE-and-FOUR
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    Innocent Bystander JeffD's Avatar
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    Default Re: Hornpipe rhythm vs reel; mandolin vs fiddle on hornpipes

    Quote Originally Posted by Ausdoerrt View Post
    So the way I've understood it, the difference between hornpipe and reel is in emphasis/accents more so than rhythm, because both are essentially the same at 4/4. So in hornpipes, the ONE and THREE are emphasized, while in reels it's more even, with a light emphasis on every beat.

    So hornpipe: ONE - and-a - THREE - and-a - ONE etc.
    Reel: ONE-and-TWO-and-THREE-and-FOUR
    Well I would go more than that. Its more than than just emphasis, I mean it is emphasis but it is duration of the note. daah dit daah dit daah dit.
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    Orrig Onion HonketyHank's Avatar
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    Default Re: Hornpipe rhythm vs reel; mandolin vs fiddle on hornpipes

    OK, here's an extension of the question. How do you pick the notes in a hornpipe?

    I have spent some time seeking out jigs to learn so as to become accustomed to the down-up-down down-up-downpicking technique. Few jigs are composed completely of strings of eighth-notes; most have lots of quarter-note eighth-note pairs. In order to preserve the DUD-DUD rhythm, these quarter-eighth pairs are played Dowwwn down Dowwwn down Dowwwn down, ... , right?

    So, now, the hornpipe eighth-note pairs are played so as to sound somewhat like the jig's quarter-eighth pairs. Does this mean that one plays hornpipes using pretty much all down strokes (as if it were a jig)? Or do you play alternating down-ups like you would a reel, even though you are applying some swing or dottedness?

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    Innocent Bystander JeffD's Avatar
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    Default Re: Hornpipe rhythm vs reel; mandolin vs fiddle on hornpipes

    Quote Originally Posted by HonketyHank View Post
    So, now, the hornpipe eighth-note pairs are played so as to sound somewhat like the jig's quarter-eighth pairs. Does this mean that one plays hornpipes using pretty much all down strokes (as if it were a jig)? Or do you play alternating down-ups like you would a reel, even though you are applying some swing or dottedness?
    Well I don't. I play them DUDU-DUDU like reels, just with a different duration.

    I am not sure what I do with my jigs. I mean in general I do DDU-DDU or the recommended DUD-DUD, but I will have to see what I do when its not a string of even notes.

    But as an over arching concept, I do not attempt to keep my right hand movement rhythmically uniform, I don't really think about it. I pick the notes, find that my hand adjusts. Something like that.
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    Registered User Ausdoerrt's Avatar
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    Default Re: Hornpipe rhythm vs reel; mandolin vs fiddle on hornpipes

    I also do DUDU, but with the proper emphasis and "swinging". Most hornpipes are in clear 4/4, and it'd get tiring to play all downstrokes.

    Besides, I feel like the picking pattern for jigs isn't so much about rhythm as it is about accenting the 1st and 3rd notes of every three. In hornpipes, you accent the first of every 4, so DUDU does the job.
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    but that's just me Bertram Henze's Avatar
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    Default Re: Hornpipe rhythm vs reel; mandolin vs fiddle on hornpipes

    Quote Originally Posted by JeffD View Post
    Well I don't. I play them DUDU-DUDU like reels, just with a different duration.
    Same here.
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