starter questions

[Rgbart]

Greeting all, newbie here with some starter questions...
First - this forum and site is fantastic, really enjoy reading and digesting material. Very active and informative....

Like many others here, I'm a guitar player looking to add the mandolin.Started about 4 months ago, really love the instrument, hardly ever pick up my high-priced guitars. I started cheap - got an Epiphone MM30 from a older gentleman who had given up on the instrument. Crowebroke bashing on youtube aside, I have actually been impressed with how much the epi has come alive and is a decent learner mando. It's a little harsh on the high strings and a bit tinny but what I have come to realize is that often shortcomings in the sound come from my skills and fingers not the instrument.I do have a Eastman 305 on reserve and have done some recording sound comparisons - clearly the Eastman is a better instrument but not sure it's that much better to climb the first step up the MAS ladder. I've read all the threads....

My questions:
1.) I had to do some setup work to get the epi to really sound ok. By adjusting the bridge I have pretty much got the open - 12th fret octaves to be true. However, it seems the string to string intonation are a bit off, i.e. fretting the d string at the 7 th fret is sharp to the a, also the a to the e. I understand that the bridge placement is the big deal but am now confused as to why the strings seem to be weird. The neck is pretty straight so that's not it. Does the height of the bridge affect the "trueness" of the tuning or just the playability? I have been working with bridge placement and height but haven't quite figured this one out. Obviously using a tuner to check the tuning of each fretted position.

2.) fingering... I figured out scales really easily and can get around a little. However, probably from guitar playing, it's 1 finger per fret. In watching some videos I noticed pretty quickly that most players use their third finger for the open position 4 and 5th frets and the "pinkie" is not used. Its very natural for me to use my 3rd finger on the 4th fret and my pinkie on the 5th but this seems to be a bad habit forming.... any comments on the use of the pinkie.... which takes me to

3.) 4 finger chords, ie. the g chord... it's seems completely unnatural to stretch my pinkie up to the 7th fret and play the d (top string). I can force the chord if I place the pinkie first and play chord changes at say, about 15 bpm.... yes I know it might come with practice but man, this is so unnatural for 60+ year old fingers! And no, I'm not willing to just play 3 and 2 finger chords.....any comments on how to speed that finger memory process along?

thanks to all... RB

[JeffD]

I have some suggestions.

1 - mandolin set up is a whole science in itself. One of the best places to go to get this info is here. It sounds like you need a really thorough set up

2- In general each finger covers two frets. This makes the next string a hand span up the neck, roughly. (In guitar tuned in fourths, for the most part, and is played one fret per finger to keep that hand span up to the next string.)

There are a series of great videos on this subject. Pete Martin has a bunch of good stuff here. I would especially recommend this one, but they all could be of use.



Pete's follow on videos cover the pinky.

I could not explain it any better.

3 - Try this. When you lay down your fingers to make the chord, start with your pinky and work backwards to the index finger. That will adjust all the rest of your hand in such a way that the net reach will not be as onerous. (It works like magic for me).

[Rgbart]

Thanks Jeff. Have been digesting Pete M's videos and they are quite informative. I have also learned that the old tuners with the tuning needle (probably digital) are much more accurate than the little clip ons. For the mandolin with such a short scale where any small adjustment makes a BIG difference.... the string to string tuning is much closer when I am very careful with the accuracy of the tuning. As well it appears that the high side of the bridge probably needs a very fine adjustment to the rear to fix out the intonation problem.

Thanks again. Still on the fence about the Eastman....

I have some suggestions.

1 - mandolin set up is a whole science in itself. One of the best places to go to get this info is here. It sounds like you need a really thorough set up

2- In general each finger covers two frets. This makes the next string a hand span up the neck, roughly. (In guitar tuned in fourths, for the most part, and is played one fret per finger to keep that hand span up to the next string.)

There are a series of great videos on this subject. Pete Martin has a bunch of good stuff here. I would especially recommend this one, but they all could be of use.



Pete's follow on videos cover the pinky.

I could not explain it any better.

3 - Try this. When you lay down your fingers to make the chord, start with your pinky and work backwards to the index finger. That will adjust all the rest of your hand in such a way that the net reach will not be as onerous. (It works like magic for me).

[Rgbart]

I even broke out my old 440 audible tone tuner and just used my ears.... seems to actually work better than the vibration tuners but maybe I'm just an old dog....

[Denny Gies]

I think it depends on what type of music you want to play. Personally using my pinky for four finger chords has helped a lot. Bluegrass is what I mostly play. Getting used to the pinky also helps with stuff like fiddle tunes.

[Paul Busman]

I've pretty much given up on 4 finger G chords. I've even had someone place my fingers in the right position, but they just don't want to go there. I play mainly Irish music, single note melody so it's not really a hindrance. I sometimes throw in a 2 or 3 finger chord to round out a tune.
One thing that helped me almost get the G chord was to start out playing that fingering up the neck a few frets where the stretch is less. Get comfortable with that, then move down one fret. Repeat until you get to G.

[CES]

One little nugget that helped me with getting 4 finger chops clean was to start further up the neck, say at a 6th fret B, and gradually move back towards the nut. Less stretch up there, but you get accustomed to the position. The stretch will eventually come. Or, as Paul points out, you can do fine without them. Good luck!

Edit: Oops, should have read all of Paul's post before hitting "reply"

[cbakewell]

What Paul said.

I can't reach at all - I can force my fingers there, but everything is under tension and there is zero chance of me actually 'hitting' that accurately from another position due to small hands and inflexible wrists.

Doesn't stop me doing the Irish/British trad stuff, but is probably part of why I don't do bluegrass (that and the fact that it just isn't my thing).

Try and keep trying, but if it really isn't possible, it won't stop you enjoying the mandolin.

[Rgbart]

MAS got me.... I decided to acquire the Eastman 305. Yes, I'm recording both and comparing to satisfy myself that the Eastman is really that much better than the Epiphone. I'll have to figure out how to append some sound files and post them. What are the odds of the Eastman being returned... (not much)!

[Trav'linmando]

I bought a 305 after several lower price instruments. Am very happy with it. A stable mandolin which has to tolerate adverse conditions (and my picking) on a regular basis. Plus it's easy to play and comfortable for me. I am also pleased with the satin finish. Coffee spills blend right in. Lol.

Larry

[Phil Goodson]

......
3.) 4 finger chords, ie. the g chord... it's seems completely unnatural to stretch my pinkie up to the 7th fret and play the d (top string). I can force the chord if I place the pinkie first and play chord changes at say, about 15 bpm.... yes I know it might come with practice but man, this is so unnatural for 60+ year old fingers! And no, I'm not willing to just play 3 and 2 finger chords.....any comments on how to speed that finger memory process along? ... RB

Here is part of a reply I made on a different thread about hand placement and chords. Maybe it will help:
Most guitarists position their fingers roughly squarely across the strings as they form a chord; instead try this:

"... positioning of your fingers will make a huge difference in how successful you are in forming mandolin chords. Your fingers should be nearly parallel to the strings as you form most chords, should look a lot more like a fiddle player's hands than like a guitar player's hands. It will make a huge difference in keeping fingertips from pushing each other out of position and will make those longer finger stretches for the chop chords much easier.

Hold the mandolin like a violin under your chin for a minute and form the chords; you'll see what I mean...." Then keep your fingers as close to the same orientation as you return the mandolin to its usual playing position.

Hope this will help a little. Obviously, careful practice for a few weeks/months/years will help.

[almeriastrings]

I just had to do some work on a student's Epiphone MM-30. The Eastman MD305 is a vastly superior instrument on every count. Built better. Sounds better - far better. Wise decision.

[AlpineDave]

3.) 4 finger chords, ie. the g chord... it's seems completely unnatural to stretch my pinkie up to the 7th fret and play the d (top string). I can force the chord if I place the pinkie first and play chord changes at say, about 15 bpm.... yes I know it might come with practice but man, this is so unnatural for 60+ year old fingers! And no, I'm not willing to just play 3 and 2 finger chords.....any comments on how to speed that finger memory process along?

RB: I've been playing for almost a year and I've just started being able to play the G chop chord cleanly, even with 60+ year old much abused hands and fingers. It's a benchmark for me, regardless of having to form the chord slowly and deliberately--I believe that speed and dexterity will eventually come if I keep at it. It reminds me of when I started on clarinet, and thought the alternate middle B note was anatomically impossible. Now it feels like one of the easiest and most natural notes to reach. Felt exactly the same way about the lower G chop chord. So don't try to force it but just keep stubbornly working on it. The human body is amazingly adaptable and will bend rather than break if you're patient but persistent with it.

[Rgbart]

I just had to do some work on a student's Epiphone MM-30. The Eastman MD305 is a vastly superior instrument on every count. Built better. Sounds better - far better. Wise decision.

So that's an interesting comment. The Epi was almost brand new as the previous owner probably played it less than 20 hours from what I could tell. So I've had it for a little over 3 months, played probably every day for hour or so. One thing that I know from guitar is the more you play the better it sounds so I really went after the Epi, really trying to do some hard strumming for several minutes each day I played. The difference was quick and obvious. New strings helped more and then some setup work helped more... it's not a Collins and never will be but the G and D strings actually sound pretty good, the A a little weak and the E very tinny (my next step was going to be focusing on the bridge height and see if I could get it to improve with some alteration). But all in all, knowing it was plywood back and sides, I was pleasantly surprised at the improvement.

The Eastman does sound more balanced and the A and E are clearly better. However, truth be told, to my ears, the two low strings are actually better on the Epi at the moment. I found out that the Eastman is about a year old and it clearly hasn't been played much (sat in a storeroom the last 30 days for sure). I'm going to be getting after it a lot in the next month and put on some new strings. As well, improvements in my playing (better fingering) will help. As well, with some age, the Eastman will dry out more and get better sounding.

Point being is that I know there is a lot of variation instrument to instrument. Maybe the Epi I have is in the better side of the typical Epi, hoping the Eastman won't be subpar for an Eastman. I truly believe a lot of the sound you get from an instrument is how much you play and how you "attack" the strings over time (spoken like a flatpicker right). I do like the finish (non-glossy) and overall look. I have a few martin guitars and have found the matte finish to be the sound I like best.