Mandolin to Guitar

[Hany Hayek]

This may just be a theoretical question, as I don't think I'll be getting a guitar.
But in all the searches I did, only "mandolin for guitar players" came up, while I was hoping to find "guitar for mandolin player". I am talking about classical guitar.
I have tried to play guitar many years back, I was playing the violin then, I failed.
Maybe now that my ear got used to the picking sound (not the bow), it might work.
But the strings with 4th and 3rd spacing, that's the challenge. (same for the Oud)
Looking forward for input.

[John Kelly]

No reason why you cannot take up classical guitar, Hany. You would be playing fibgerstyle rather than using a plectrum, I'd imagine, so new skills to acquire there. Nylon strings are easier on the fingers, so a bonus there!

As far as the tuning goes, you rightly identify the intervals as 4ths and one 3rd and you would have to learn new shapes and fingerings compared to your mandolin playing, but lots of people happily move between guitar and mandolin in their playing and the different approaches become second nature with practice. The use of one finger per fret as opposed to the mandolin's one finger covering two frets is another area you would have to work on too.

I'd imagine that the fact that your searhces throw up more "mandolin for guitar players" than vice versa is because there are many more guitar players in the first place, but I may well be wrong in this.

Give it a try and see how you get on!

[foldedpath]

If your goal is Classical guitar, I think you'll find the left hand transition to be relatively easy. It's a different fingering system, but with enough practice it will feel natural. The right hand will be completely different with fingerstyle technique for Classical guitar music instead of using a pick. Learning to play with your fingers (and maintaining your fingernails) will be where you'll probably have to spend the most effort and time.

Like many here on the Cafe I arrived at mandolin after playing guitar for many years, and I still play it frequently in both strummed/flatpick style for backing Irish music, and fingerstyle guitar for slower arrangements. Guitar is a great complementary instrument for a mandolin player. It's a different voice with different possibilities in chord/melody playing, which is basically what Classical guitar is all about.

[UsuallyPickin]

The technique will certainly be different. Intervals and the lower four strings being exactly backwards will also take some getting used to. Playing with the fingers on each hand gives you more to deal with between the hands in timing placement, and plucking. I started out playing guitar with my fingers in a folk style not classical and it took me awhile to learn the flatpick. And a fiddle bow still gives me fits though a better bow made a world of difference........ here's another direction for you... after you have some classical tunes under your fingers on guitar borrow a banjo from a friend and mess a bit with it and download Opus 36 from Uncle Charlie and His Dog Teddy.... John McEuen is a fine player ...... Don't forget we are doing this because we love it and it's fun R/

[EdHanrahan]

... the fact that your searches throw up more "mandolin for guitar players" than vice versa is because there are many more guitar players in the first place, but I may well be wrong in this.

That sounds like a safe bet, John. A survey of Café members some time back showed that, IIRC, maybe 80% of us played guitar before taking up mandolin. Smaller numbers played banjo or violin first, while only 10% or 15% stated out on mandolin as their first instrument. Those who transitioned the other way must be very few. (30 million guitar players in the US vs. under a million of us, I'd guess?)

To the OP: The first big mistake that many/most of us 80% made is trying to hold & fret the mandolin like a little guitar. Lots of tutorials show how the "proper" mandolin grip is more angled, similar to violin, where the fingers extend & retract along the length of the fretboard rather than reach across it at a single fret, as on guitar.

Do dive in!

[multidon]

I took classical guitar lessons for a couple of years, and still play classical occasionally when I get the urge. I just wanted to chime in with a word or two about fingertips (flesh) vs fingernails in regards to right hand technique. Early on in guitar history, the great players all played with flesh because they preferred the tone. Later some players switched to nails because they found they could achieve greater speed. Things got pretty solidified with Segovia, because of his skill and popularity everyone wanted to emulate. He used nails. And he called anyone who tried to play classical guitar without using their nails "an idiot". Don't hold back, Mr. Segovia! Tell us how you really feel! Well, my fingernails are very brittle, and I couldn't get them long enough to be any use before they broke. My teacher wanted me to get acrylic nails put on, but I wouldn't. And I preferred the tone I got with flesh anyway. It seems we have gotten away from the notion that everyone has to play like Segovia, and there are good players using both techniques, or a hybrid technique where you start on flesh and end on nail. I prefer flesh for a bunch of different reasons. Tone primarily, but not having to fuss with the nails all the time (it's a lifestyle, really) is a big plus for me. I may never have super velocity, but that was never in the cards for me, anyway.

Also wanted to say that, naturally, we all know guitar has a much longer scale length than a mandolin, but the open string intervals are closer so it's not extremely difficult to get your stretches. But it would be well to consider that guitars with classic Spanish construction have even longer scale lengths. Many are longer than 26 inches. This equals better tone but some stretches on such a guitar are impossible for me, as I have relatively small hands. Big hands are definitely a plus on classical guitar! But I play a La Patrie, same folks who make Godin, Seagull, and other brands. It has features that make it an easier transition for someone used to a modern steel string. It still has the same nut width as a Spanish style guitar but it also has a shorter than traditional scale, 25.5 inches, a radius fret board, a dovetail neck joint (no huge Spanish heel to navigate around) and an adjustable truss rod. Purists scoff at such notions, and say it's not really a classical guitar. I say, get with the times. There are other makes I'm sure that include modern features like this to make things more comfortable.

[pheffernan]

I have tried to play guitar many years back, I was playing the violin then, I failed.
Maybe now that my ear got used to the picking sound (not the bow), it might work.
But the strings with 4th and 3rd spacing, that's the challenge.

I wonder if a tenor guitar might help as a transitional instrument. Tuned in fifths, the intervals (whether GDAE or CGDA) should feel more intuitive for your brain. The 21"-23" scale length could well be more comfortable for your left hand, while the four strings might be more manageable for your right hand, at least at first. I recently bought a tenor with the hope of transitioning some of the skills that I've developed on the mandolin over to the acoustic guitar, my first instrument. It could serve a similar role for you.

[foldedpath]

It seems we have gotten away from the notion that everyone has to play like Segovia, and there are good players using both techniques, or a hybrid technique where you start on flesh and end on nail. I prefer flesh for a bunch of different reasons. Tone primarily, but not having to fuss with the nails all the time (it's a lifestyle, really) is a big plus for me. I may never have super velocity, but that was never in the cards for me, anyway.

Yeah, no kidding about fingernail maintenance as a lifestyle. Not just for Classical but also fingerstyle technique on steel string acoustic guitar, which can really tear your nails up. I compromise by playing with short nails and not relying too much on the nail for tone, so if I do get a nick or tear one off, I can still get a decent tone with bare fingers. I do like a little nail in the tone when I can manage it, but that's down to personal preference.

Some players are big into acrylic nails, but I've just never wanted that much hassle. I'm not sure it's healthy for the nail bed either, in the long-term.

Also wanted to say that, naturally, we all know guitar has a much longer scale length than a mandolin, but the open string intervals are closer so it's not extremely difficult to get your stretches. But it would be well to consider that guitars with classic Spanish construction have even longer scale lengths. Many are longer than 26 inches. This equals better tone but some stretches on such a guitar are impossible for me, as I have relatively small hands. Big hands are definitely a plus on classical guitar! But I play a La Patrie, same folks who make Godin, Seagull, and other brands. It has features that make it an easier transition for someone used to a modern steel string. It still has the same nut width as a Spanish style guitar but it also has a shorter than traditional scale, 25.5 inches, a radius fret board, a dovetail neck joint (no huge Spanish heel to navigate around) and an adjustable truss rod. Purists scoff at such notions, and say it's not really a classical guitar. I say, get with the times. There are other makes I'm sure that include modern features like this to make things more comfortable.

I agree... "crossover" nylon string guitars with more relaxed dimensions are great, if you're not planning on a career in Classical Guitar performance.

I had Steve Holst make me one of his Humphrey Millennium-style (bent top) nylon string guitars with a 25" scale and a 1 7/8" nut. It's much more comfortable to play than a full-bore Classical, and still has decent volume. I use Hannabach Super High Tension Silver Special bass strings, and Hannabach Medium/High tension Carbon Trebles on the upper three, which helps compensate for the shorter scale.

There aren't many companies making guitars like this though, so you may have to search a bit, or have one custom made like I did.

[Hany Hayek]

I wonder if a tenor guitar might help as a transitional instrument. Tuned in fifths, the intervals (whether GDAE or CGDA) should feel more intuitive for your brain. The 21"-23" scale length could well be more comfortable for your left hand, while the four strings might be more manageable for your right hand, at least at first. I recently bought a tenor with the hope of transitioning some of the skills that I've developed on the mandolin over to the acoustic guitar, my first instrument. It could serve a similar role for you.

I play a tenor Banjo tuned like a mandolin (one octave lower). The bass sound is wonderful. It's easy enough although I have rather small hands. I keep moving up and down the fret board even when playing only in first position. The frets are further apart from those of a guitar.
Still the tuning of the guitar is what scares me away the most. it's a mandolin upside down

[pheffernan]

Still the tuning of the guitar is what scares me away the most. it's a mandolin upside down

A tenor isn't.

[darrylicshon]

I went from many years of classical violin to electric guitar, then classical guitar then i finally bought a mandolin, i had played some before. I don't think it will be too hard, just have to take your time and practice practice practice. I've had alot of fun playing guitar electric and classical i wish you the best.

[lflngpicker]

So many interesting answers above. I found there to be a great deal insight in all of these responses. I played guitar all my long life and moved to mandolin 3 or 4 years ago. I am a long way from being an accomplished mandolin player, but having the guitar background allowed me to use the mandolin in performance situations for vocal accompaniment and general rhythm right away.

Some adjustments from mandolin to guitar would need to be made, but the string tension and doubled strings per course (I hope I put that right) would have conditioned your fingers well to make this transition. Classic guitar (to fret a note) is a bit more forgiving than steel stringed flattop so other than the longer reach, a change in strum hand use and the spread of the left hand finger placement, I would think your experience on the mandolin would be a great help. As Pheffernan and others reflected on, tuning and chord shapes are completely different issues. I know, for me, it was very enjoyable and challenging to learn the chord shapes and positions, as well as scales on the mandolin after being so into the guitar so long. A very good topic!

[catmandu2]

Also consider oud - which you may find intuitive with its similarities to mandolin (and violin), whereas classical guitar (and myriad Latin nylon string traditions) are vastly dissimilar (idiomatic 'picking' hand ).

I grew up with classical and flamenco (gtr), but found I enjoy oud - while still assuaging my interest in al Andalus - these days, as I no longer have the time to keep up my flamenco chops.

Of course, it depends on the repertoire of interest. If you want to play Bach, bossa nova, et al. - then certainly guitar.

[mandroid]

You will have to read completely different Music for Classical guitar , than Violin/Mandolin..

And do take Lessons from someone ..

There is a whole lot of How you hold the guitar while seated,
with 1 foot elevated, on a little folding stool.

[Hany Hayek]

Oud is a choice but the sound is too oriental for the music I like to play. Remember in Arabic music you play 1/4 and 3/4 notes. But it is a great sounding instrument.
I am also afraid that if I start on classical guitar it is going to take some of my mandolin time. I am now approaching being an advanced player.

[LadysSolo]

I will agree with shorter scale, but I have found (it takes some looking) even shorter scale guitars (24.4 - 24.6") That is why I immediately liked mandolin so much after playing guitar (off and on) most of my life - I could actually reach the notes, and it wasn't too big! Then I discovered parlor guitars (no music store near me had ever had any in stock, so I was unaware such a thing existed! - Hard to believe, but true.) Now I have a parlor guitar, a 3/4 size guitar, and a full-size guitar, plus the mandolins. You will need to see what size fits you, but you can find classical guitars in smaller sizes with a little work.

[lflngpicker]

LadySolo, I have appreciated adding the mandolin to my arsenal for a similar reason . With PD the hands lose some of their control and agility, and the mandolin is much more comfortable and within reach. You put it so well.

[CelticDude]

I did something similar - went from playing mandolin to guitar. I tried a few different genre of music, including blues on an electric, but kept coming back to acoustic guitar. I ended up taking classical guitar lessons, but on a steel-string instrument; my goal was (is) finger-style Irish music.

While I'm not a great mando player, I think I have some potential on it, and it's still the most fun to me. I've never felt that with guitar, so I'll probably never get past beginner level with guitar. But it's a fun change every once in a while. Good luck.

[foldedpath]

Keep in mind that if you go too short in scale length on a "crossover" nylon string guitar, you might have to buy individual strings for a custom set of gauges, instead of buying packaged sets designed for standard scale length. If you can find a nylon string guitar with both a slightly shorter scale and a slightly narrower nut, I think that's the sweet spot. The combination of the two noticeably reduces finger stretch, and if you don't go too short in scale you can still use packaged string sets.

A parlor-sized guitar is a nice option if your hands can't handle even a reduced scale and neck width, but there will be some compromise in tone and volume.

Another thing you might find helpful on a crossover nylon string guitar is a somewhat shallower neck profile, which can allow more finger extension with your thumb on the back of the neck. I had my custom nylon guitar built with the same neck profile as my steel string acoustic -- a "shallow D" -- but not as thin as an electric guitar neck. Most traditionally-built Classical guitars will have a fairly chunky neck by comparison. It's a handful, and you're just supposed to adapt to it regardless of your hand size.

[CarlM]

Classical guitar is rather different from mandolin from a musical perspective. If you play things like Bach or Scarlatti pieces, you will often be playing music with multiple melody lines with contrapuntal movement. The music is closer to piano music often with moving bass lines and treble melody and chords being played throughout. They are more self contained pieces. Mandolin to bluegrass guitar or even jazz is a smaller leap.

[catmandu2]

Oud is a choice but the sound is too oriental for the music I like to play. Remember in Arabic music you play 1/4 and 3/4 notes. But it is a great sounding instrument.
I am also afraid that if I start on classical guitar it is going to take some of my mandolin time. I am now approaching being an li player.

Sure I understand. It does offer an exotic flavor. Fwiw, though one doesn't HAVE to play only Arabic and Turkish maqam on oud (my own oud playing and interest is in medieval mediterranean, as well as more ancient forms from east Africa, ethiopia, somalia ..)

One can play oud in maj/min western tonality and straight 4/4 time, if one wished. Of course there's electric oud, modern applications, etc, -

[catmandu2]

Classical guitar is rather different from mandolin from a musical perspective. If you play things like Bach or Scarlatti pieces, you will often be playing music with multiple melody lines with contrapuntal movement. The music is closer to piano music often with moving bass lines and treble melody and chords being played throughout. They are more self contained pieces. Mandolin to bluegrass guitar or even jazz is a smaller leap.

Or, 'classical' technique applied to any manner of 'guitar'-based idiomatic playing (i.e. various fundamental technical patterns and devices appear throughout folk applications round the world). But the point is well made - and also illustrates why oud technique (single melody line, harmonic approach, etc) is much closer (to mandolin) -

An oud is like an amalgam of guitar, mandolin and violin/cello. Anyway, just wanted to point that out.

[crisscross]

Still the tuning of the guitar is what scares me away the most. it's a mandolin upside down

I think, of you are considering taking up classical guitar, it would be wise to define realistic short time goals.
Like for example learning the notes in the first position and playing little pieces, in which all 4 fingers of the right hand are used. (The pinky is only used for special techniques.
Like this Carulli study:

There's a wealth of pieces by Carulli, Carcassi or Sor that can be played in the first position and working on them is a fun way to get used to the new tuning, with the aspect of the new tuning becoming less important with each new piece you learn, since you use the same notes over and over again.

What I consider more of a problem, is the question which finger of the right hand plucks which note?
Once you leave arpeggios with a one finger per string rule behind, this can become quite tricky and ask for some consideration.
But with a good method book or a note edition with good right hand fingrings, that should be no major problem.

[catmandu2]

What I consider more of a problem, is the question which finger of the right hand plucks which note?
Once you leave arpeggios with a one finger per string rule behind, this can become quite tricky and ask for some consideration.
But with a good method book or a note edition with good right hand fingrings, that should be no major problem.

Well there are fundamental techniques and approaches, then ultimately it's intuitive - just as with a plectrum (albeit, now more complex with five fingers...the beauty of 'fingerstyle' instruments .. just the way rhythm is deployed in various rasquesdo figures and techniques around the world is fascinating .. why the guitar is such a successful instrument in folk forms around the world -

[Hany Hayek]

Thank you all for your answers. This is very encouraging.
I have the first part of Carulli method arranged by Terzi with the right hand fingering.
I don't think I'll face a problem with size, if I buy, I'll get a full size guitar. I need the full sound