World's oldest known written song NMC

[Tommcgtx]

Saw this today, thought it was pretty cool. I like the sound of it.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencete...g-1400-BC.html

[foldedpath]

Neat link. I got curious and looked it up on Wiki, where there is more info about the scales used: Hurrian Songs.

Another bit of trivia: apparently the Hurrian Hymn is the background leader theme for Nebuchadnezzar II in the Civilization V game.

[sblock]

Aaagh! It sounds to me like the lyre soloist, Mr. Michael Levy, needs to practice a bit more with a metronome; his timing seems pretty irregular. Or would he claim that all ancient music was performed tempo rubato? Also, either that lyre is pretty wonky or he needs to work a bit more on the tuning (chances are that they used just intonation back then, but I'm not hearing it).

Finally, in the article, it states:

Mr. Levy told MailOnline his musical mission is to 'reintroduce the beautiful lyres of antiquity back into the bland and soulless modern "musical" world.'

Bland and soulless? C'mon, give me a break! There is WAAAAY too much going on in the modern musical world, which includes so many different genres of music from all around this globe, to be able to make such a dismissive generalization. With all respect, he knows not what he speaks. Bach is not bland and soulless, and neither are the Beatles, nor is Aaron Copeland, nor Turlough O'Carollan, nor...(fill in the blank)

Don't get me wrong: I love ancient music! But this guy is not doing it any favors by over-reaching with his spoken claims while under-performing with his instrument. And does he seriously believe that folks have made little significant progress in over 2,000 years of writing new music?

[catmandu2]

Aaagh! It sounds to me like the lyre soloist, Mr. Michael Levy, needs to practice a bit more with a metronome; his timing seems pretty irregular. Or would he claim that all ancient music was performed tempo rubato? Also, either that lyre is pretty wonky or he needs to work a bit more on the tuning (chances are that they used just intonation back then, but I'm not hearing it).

Finally, in the article, it states:

Mr. Levy told MailOnline his musical mission is to 'reintroduce the beautiful lyres of antiquity back into the bland and soulless modern "musical" world.'

Bland and soulless? C'mon, give me a break! There is WAAAAY too mpouch going on in the modern musical world, which includes so many different genres of music from all around this globe, to be able to make such a dismissive generalization. With all respect, he knows not what he speaks. Bach is not bland and soulless, and neither are the Beatles, nor is Aaron Copeland, nor Turlough O'Carollan, nor...(fill in the blank)

Don't get me wrong: I love ancient music! But this guy is not doing it any favors by over-reaching with his spoken claims while under-performing with his instrument. And does he seriously believe that folks have made little significant progress in over 2,000 years of writing new music?

But (via mass communication and its effects), the prevalence of 'commercial'-based music in the 'modern' era is exponentially greater - compared with (ancient) times when music was local and, presumably, had greater sociocultural relevance*

Please, how should the piece in the article be rendered? (With regard to meter)

Also, I suspect that instruments (not to mention temperaments) of the ancients were indeed "wonky" to modern sensibilities..

[MikeEdgerton]

If you listen closely you'll hear Louie Louie in there.....

I'm going to assume that the person that is able to read that score might have a better idea as to how it should sound than a person such as I with my western ear for music. With that said, a drum, an electric guitar, and some effects and this could be a huge hit.

Michael Levy is known as "The Chris Thile of the ancient lyre" and even has his own website.

http://www.ancientlyre.com/index/

[sblock]

But (via mass communication and its effects), the prevalence of 'commercial'-based music in the 'modern' era is exponentially greater - compared with (ancient) times when music was local and, presumably, had more relevance*

Please, how should the piece in the article be rendered? (With regard to meter)

But catmandu2, Mr. Levy does not refer to "commercial" music -- that's a term that you introduced. Mr. Levy uses a broader brush to characterize the entire "modern musical world" as "bland and soulless". He is completely and demonstrably wrong about that!

As for how the piece "should" be played, well, perhaps no one can say at this point, 2000 years on. This is because the scale notes used (musical intervals, microtones, intonation) were are not precisely known, and the cunieform "notation" that was found, which is unique, has been interpreted rather conjecturally by scholars, and, in essence, "translated" into modern notation -- perhaps incorrectly. The several liberal arrangements of this tune recorded by Mr. Levy, in fact, all have somewhat different melodies, and they include instrumental effects (strums, back rhythms, and plucked dyads) not indicated in the original text, which is spare. Furthermore, the melody is not complete, because only a fragment of the whole exists. Finally, a more interesting and better-rendered vocal recording of this same hymn #6 (Google it) bears rather little resemblance to the various lyre interpretations! So no one really knows for sure how the melody really went, and no one really knows much about the tempo, either!

But what we can say, and with some confidence, is that written notes carry a fixed value, and that speeding up and slowing down while playing (thereby playing nominally equal notes for different times) is usually done rather sparingly, and for interpretive effect (tempo rubato), during performance -- but seldom to the degree that Mr. Levy does in his arrangement, where he speeds up and slows down some notes seemingly at random! And sometimes, he manages to hit dyad harmonies on two strings at the same time; sometimes he staggers hitting these a tiny bit. Sounds like playing incompetence to me, and not "interpretation:" something you might expect from an inexperienced player.

In point of fact, the ancients seemed to have some very clear (almost modern) ideas about pitch, so far as we can tell, and they even worried from the time of Pythagoras about things like the minor frequency differences introduced by the use of just intonation. So there is no reason whatsoever to believe that that did not have equally clear ideas about regularity in tempo.

I just don't think Mr. Levy is a very good lyre player. There, I said it. Call me a lyre.

[Mark Gunter]

I found this when studying the origins of written music a little while back. As sblock indicates, there is more research to be found and more interesting reading about this subject, and even about this specific piece of music. The interpretation of this music can not be definitive; also, bear in mind that you are reading here a short newspaper article, and hearing one scholar's interpretation. And yes, he expresses his opinion about modern music, and this is only that one man's opinion. I disagree, too, but who cares? Let him do his thing. Just don't make the mistake of believing that you're hearing a definitive interpretation of the original music. Still, a really cool subject.

[Mark Gunter]

Side trip to Michael Levy's website (thanks for the link), really nice Klezmer fiddle tunes in there! And some interesting stuff on the lyre as well.

[catmandu2]

Thanks sblock - interesting observations and speculation, some I agree and some I might not, and I wish I had a proper keyboard on which to type enough to pursue ideas in more detail - all I have is my phone (I'm in a huge techno-deficit) on which pecking with my finger, well, sucks.

It (music, history, etc) is indeed a great subject (imo), so I hope discussion here evinces - albeit, might chance better in the 'classical/European et al.' section..

One point (meter, deployment in intetpretation, etc) that intrigues me in study of historical repertoire, and as discoveries are made, are the various treatments in rendering. You really have to make choices (viz, interpret); extending - not least from incomplete understanding of so much exo and esoteri technology and information - any manner of approach in scholarship..

..and I'd rather save whats left of my finger and eyesight for harping - speaking of which, so I'm working from new recordings of old (1k) year old manuscript - only a few recordings, thus far.. and the differences among them are dramatic.