Classical vs Bluegrass

[allenhopkins]

...Today, mandatory Latin instruction is -- thankfully! --pretty much dead in most of our schools...

Sed lingua Latina mortua non est.

[foldedpath]

Sed lingua Latina mortua non est.

Okay, if we're going to take a side trip into Latin as an analogy to learning music...

I attended a private secondary school here in the US where everyone was force-fed Latin for two years before you could take another language. It was a requirement to graduate. Never took another language after that because it was optional (and what I really cared about was art and music).

In my 20's, I did a lot of work in Central and South America where I picked up Spanish at a fairly fluent level, and almost entirely through immersion. Some job assignments were 3 months long, embedded with Spanish-only hosts and not another English speaker around.

I will say that the Latin background helped in being able to understand some things "on the fly" because I recognized the root word. I'm not sure if I would have done better just studying Spanish in school though, because the reason I got fluent was immersion in the language and the culture with no distractions from English-speakers. That's how Peace Corps teaches language, or at least they used to. After a small amount of initial language instruction, they throw the newbies into a host home for a few months where nobody speaks English. You come of of that speaking the language, because you need to speak to survive.

What does this have to do with music?

It's simple: once you get the basic mechanics down, get out there and play with other musicians, in whatever style you choose. You'll improve at a much faster rate than dry study at home.

[catmandu2]

It's simple: once you get the basic mechanics down, get out there and play with other musicians, in whatever style you choose. You'll improve at a much faster rate than dry study at home.

Except, of course, for "classical" (solo instrument)

[sblock]

Sed lingua Latina mortua non est.

Latina mortua est verum; in vita mandolin!!

[sblock]

Okay, if we're going to take a side trip into Latin as an analogy to learning music...

I attended a private secondary school here in the US where everyone was force-fed Latin for two years before you could take another language. It was a requirement to graduate. Never took another language after that because it was optional (and what I really cared about was art and music).

In my 20's, I did a lot of work in Central and South America where I picked up Spanish at a fairly fluent level, and almost entirely through immersion. Some job assignments were 3 months long, embedded with Spanish-only hosts and not another English speaker around.

I will say that the Latin background helped in being able to understand some things "on the fly" because I recognized the root word. I'm not sure if I would have done better just studying Spanish in school though, because the reason I got fluent was immersion in the language and the culture with no distractions from English-speakers. That's how Peace Corps teaches language, or at least they used to. After a small amount of initial language instruction, they throw the newbies into a host home for a few months where nobody speaks English. You come of of that speaking the language, because you need to speak to survive.

What does this have to do with music?

It's simple: once you get the basic mechanics down, get out there and play with other musicians, in whatever style you choose. You'll improve at a much faster rate than dry study at home.

+1 YES!!!!! The best -- and also the fastest -- way to learn a foreign language is to live and love in a country where it's spoken. And the best way to get up to speed in folk music (just about any folk genre, including jazz) is to surround yourself with other playing musicians. They provide motivation, inspiration, and the best kind of practice environment for performance. Some classical musicians may have other ideas about how best to learn, but classical music also benefits from the very same approach.

[catmandu2]

...but classical music also benefits from the very same approach.

Dependent on genre. For some, this is completely irrelevant.

There is public performing throughout tuition (for solo instrumental), but zero "playing together" for some instrumental traditions. And this is an option that exists for an aspiring student/player, I might add. For some, playing music WITH others isn't a consideration, nor an aspect of tuition.

[Woodrow Wilson]

As I see It, Bluegrass is Played in bands that stand Up. (and Sing)

Classical music is played Sitting in a Chair and Usually wearing Black suits and dresses
(depending on Gender)

[Ausdoerrt]

Although I advocate being able to read staff notation, certain genres just are based on aural traditions, and learning tunes by ear may be needed. So it may not be overlooked as much as not needed.

Well, I do consider it an essential skill that is useful for any genre. There are a plenty of tunebooks these days for bluegrass and other "aural" traditions, and it's just so much easier/faster to learn off a music sheet than by ear, even if you're good at both.

Sightreading is also considerably less dependent on natural talent than playing by ear.

The thing with genre hopping is, you have to have intimate knowledge of and be highly proficient in all of the genres you intend to mix to do it well.

[DavidKOS]

Well, I do consider it an essential skill that is useful for any genre. There are a plenty of tunebooks these days for bluegrass and other "aural" traditions, and it's just so much easier/faster to learn off a music sheet than by ear, even if you're good at both.

Sightreading is also considerably less dependent on natural talent than playing by ear.

Like I said, I advocate reading music.

But the traditional way to learn Bluegrass and many other music genres is by ear. Yes there are tunebooks, and material in TAB too, but it doesn't change the basic fact that some styles are not originally sheet music dependant.

The thing with genre hopping is, you have to have intimate knowledge of and be highly proficient in all of the genres you intend to mix to do it well.

Ain't that the truth! Each genre is world unto itself in terms of the musical language and "accent" used. I play a variety of styles and each needs its own mindset.

[sblock]

Yes, an ability to sight-read mandolin from standard musical notation is undoubtedly helpful for some genres -- and darned-near indispensable for playing classical music! -- but my opinion is that its value has been overemphasized. There are other playing skills that are far more important when it comes to making music on a mandolin, and these include things like ear training, clean fingering, accurate picking, the ability to form chords, good tone production, appropriate posture/ergonomics, and many other aspects of playing technique.

The fact is that many of the great performing mandolinists whose names we routinely encounter here on the Mandolin Cafe are not able to sight-read standard notation at all, or, they may be able to read it and play it slowly, but not at tempo. These folks mainly come out of a folk or jazz or pop tradition, and rely almost entirely on their hands and ears. Besides, standard notation is pretty much useless when you're improvising. Some of these same people have also recorded classical music, which they first learned from the notation (slowly) and committed to memory. They don't require the sheet music in front of them to play these pieces. And neither do classical soloists, who always commit the music they perform to memory, and most good orchestral players, who ultimately use sheet music ONLY as a general guide/mnemonic device while performing in ensembles.

And, of course, there are many genres where sheet music is completely unavailable! But there exist, nevertheless, rich repositories of recorded and live music. The way to learn this music is by ear.

If you think you'll mostly be playing something other than classical music, then my own advice would be to concentrate on learning mandolin technique, and not sight reading -- at least at first. Most especially, learn to translate what you hear in your head or ears into the appropriate motions that will produce those same sounds on your instrument -- this is playing "by ear." That skill is truly indispensable. Sight reading definitely has its place, but writing for myself, I don't think that place is especially high on the list.

P.S. I very much like David Brown's analogy between playing a musical genre and speaking a language with an accent. Very apt! The basic vocabulary and grammar (notes; scales; harmonies) are basically similar, but the pronunciation and choice of words/phrases (note sequences, tempo variations, etc.) can be quite different. In fact, the analogy might be even closer to speaking different dialects of a common language.

[JeffD]

Is it correct to say that, in general, bluegrass style is more difficult to play than classical style?

Hanging with serious classical mandolinists, and learning to play classical mandolin at a serious level, is one of the hardest things I have ever done.

[Beanzy]

No point learning to knit if you're only wanting to run around in bearskins.

[Mandoplumb]

If you are going to play music, any genre, how can any thing you learn about music hurt you? I've heard people say you can't play fiddle if you read music, you are playing a violin,and it don't sound right. Hogwash! You do have to listen to the music you want to play to get it, but no knowledge is useless. Ralph Stanley said Bluegrass music is the hardest music in the world to play because you have to live it to play it. I think that is true of any music. We have all heard a easy rock or a dance band try to play bluegrass or fiddle tunes and sound terrible even though the are playing the right notes. On the other hand I've heard BG bands attempt rock with same results, but in either case it wasn't because they knew too much about music.

[sblock]

No point learning to knit if you're only wanting to run around in bearskins.

That comment comes across as musical snobbery to me. What a terrible thing to say! I hope you don't mean to imply that folks like Sam Bush, Adam Steffey, Ronnie McCoury, John Reischman, Frank Solivan, Larry Rice, Jesse McReynolds, and many other mandolin greats are somehow "running around in bearskins" simply because they don't happen to sight read music off a page. Those folks can pick circles around me -- and probably around you, too!

Reading musical notation is unquestionably a useful skill, but it is by no means required to be a great player in most musical genres -- outside classical, that is. But the air of superiority being conveyed by some folks with classical training is palpable. Moreover, it's as unrealistic as it is unpleasant. In my opinion, your quest for formalism in all things mandolin has caused you to lose perspective.

[JeffD]

No point learning to knit if you're only wanting to run around in bearskins.

That comment comes across as musical snobbery to me. .

I don't think that was what is meant. Beanzy can respond accurately, but my interpretation was a general statement that we don't go about learning a genre in order to play it poorly. If you only going to run around in bearskins you don't need to learn to knit. If you are going to go through the effort of learning a new genre, learn to play it well.

I could be wrong, but that was my takeaway.

Whether learning to "play it well" requires learning to read notation, or whether, though not required there are advantages to learning to read notation, this is an entirely different discussion.

[JeffD]

Yes, it may be true that first learning classical music on the mandolin may well make learning another genre easier. But then again, first learning bluegrass on the mandolin will also make learning another genre, for example jazz, a lot easier. Or Irish Traditional. Or any other genre, because you benefit from knowing a reasonably common skill set (i.e., picking, fretting, scales, keys, chords, knowing the fretboard by ear, etc.) for ANY genre. So whenever some classically-trained musician advises you to learn classical first because it's easier to transition to something else, it's a bit like saying that you really need to learn Latin first before proceeding to Spanish. Sure, the Latin might help, but why not just start with Spanish? That works perfectly well!

I think at the very beginning, learning classical technique gives you more flexibility to move to other genres. What I mean is that if you do not have your heart set on a particular genre, if you are still exploring, my advice would be to start in a classical direction, perhaps something like "classical light". Its true than progress anywhere is progress everywhere, but I think starting with a bit of formalism gives you the least "accent" to unlearn if and when a specific genre pulls at your heart.

There is no perfect front door, and sometimes you have to just jump in and swim out to the edges, and no matter where you start and where ever you go, there will be things you will wish you learned earlier and perhaps things you have learned you struggle to set aside as you learn something else. I just think something like "classic light" is a place to start that can be embraced passionately and serves as an excellent foundation for every genre.

But if one is passionately attracted to bluegrass, or fiddle tunes, or country music, then hey go after it, full throttle.

[Beanzy]

Well sblock. If it were your misinterpretation you reveal a lot about yourself by the way you chose to misinterpret it; why not the other way about?. Is dressing in skins inferior to wool?
But because it was neither that's not even relevant anyway.

If you have a skillset that achieves your aims and does so using resoursces and skills relevant to the environment you choose to inhabit, then why would you spend finite resources like time and effort on something which would not serve your needs nor equip you for the environment ? It is only if you chose to move into a new environment that you might spend the effort adapting your skillset to facilitate that. So the teacher will ask what environment you intend to inhabit and equip you with those skills or pass you on to another who can.

At the outset it is important to get to play music quickly enough to motivate you to continue. I would recommend people look about to see where they can get to play with others in a style you like,then use that as your initial guide and learn those skills. Adaption can come later once you know more about the instrument and what aspects interest you.

[sblock]

I don't think that was what is meant. Beanzy can respond accurately, but my interpretation was a general statement that we don't go about learning a genre in order to play it poorly. If you only going to run around in bearskins you don't need to learn to knit. If you are going to go through the effort of learning a new genre, learn to play it well.

I could be wrong, but that was my takeaway.

Whether learning to "play it well" requires learning to read notation, or whether, though not required, there are advantages to learning to read notation, this is an entirely different discussion.

Yes, as the saying goes, "anything worth doing is worth doing well." I suspect we all agree about that. And I resonate with your comment about learning to play classical mandolin at a serious level being extremely hard.

As for the other part, about "Whether learning to 'play it well' requires learning to read notation, or whether, though not required, there are advantages to learning to read notation" --- a close reading of this thread (and particularly my contributions) will show that no one, and certainly not me, has ever disputed the suggestion that learning to read notation doesn't have its attendant advantages. So of course it's a useful skill, but not necessarily a required one, unless you're trying to play classical music.

That said, "learning to 'play it well'" very clearly does not require learning how to read notation. The truth of this statement is self-evident for most forms of folk, jazz, and other non-classical genres, where the music that gets performed is not even written down in the first place (or just comes as a lead sheet), or where any need for improvisation applies.

And even most classical musicians will agree that "playing it well" involves first committing the piece (or most of it) to musical and muscle memory, and not just sight-reading it off a page in real time. Yes, the best classical musicians with awesome sight reading skills can manage a decent performance right off the bat, but they do even better when they are so familiar with the piece they they don't need to read it note-for-note. Soloists performing concertos with orchestras memorize; they don't sight read, as I pointed out earlier.

[JeffD]

That said, "learning to 'play it well'" very clearly does not require learning how to read notation.

Of course. There are many things specific to a particular genre that are not required in other genres. Four finger bluegrass chop chords are not required in traditional Irish, or classical, as an example.

Depending on how ridiculous we want to get, what the heck is required. Steve Earl, Eddie Vedder do real well without a whole lot of mandolinny technique. And with all my mandolinny technique I am not on a world stage.

[FLATROCK HILL]

Steve Earl, Eddie Vedder do real well without a whole lot of mandolinny technique.

Tactful, diplomatic and so true.

[DavidKOS]

Steve Earl, Eddie Vedder do real well without a whole lot of mandolinny technique..

Well, that's a matter of taste.

Although guys like Steve Earl are very popular, more so than I'll ever be, I have never been attracted to his music. The fact that he's not a particularly impressive mandolinist doesn't make me like his music any more.

But like I said, that's just my taste, not a musical fact.

[allenhopkins]

Of course...Depending on how ridiculous we want to get, what the heck is required. Steve Earl, Eddie Vedder do real well without a whole lot of mandolinny technique. And with all my mandolinny technique I am not on a world stage.

They're famous musicians, but didn't become so due to their mandolin skills. This thread is about what's needed to learn (or teach) either bluegrass or "classical" music on the mandolin. OP is obviously interested in that subject, hasn't yet expressed interest in becoming a famous performing songwriter, like Earle or Vedder.

We wander far afield, I fear...

[JeffD]

OP is obviously interested in that subject, hasn't yet expressed interest in becoming a famous performing songwriter, like Earle or Vedder..

Its only relevant to this extent. As extreme examples of what is and what isn't "required" for a particular type of playing. Or, the response to the question "Do I have to...?"