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Thread: An open letter to Classifieds users

  1. #151

    Default Re: An open letter to Classifieds users

    Where else can you end up trading your own album with David Grisman because he contacts you about a Swedish mandolin you have for sale?
    That just brought a smile to my face. Interacting with our heroes as peers is priceless.
    Robert Fear
    http://www.folkmusician.com

    "Education is when you read the fine print; experience is what you get when you don't.
    " - Pete Seeger

  2. #152
    Usedtobeawannabee opie wan's Avatar
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    Default Re: An open letter to Classifieds users

    Thank you for what you do Scott. I've used this service once and it was great. I love your classifieds. Well stated letter Sir!

  3. #153
    Montana Mark
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    Default Re: An open letter to Classifieds users

    So I really appreciate MC and the classifieds. I bought my serious mandolin thru the classifieds, and I love it. I occasionally will post but mostly I learn from MC. How can I show my appreciation?

    Mark

  4. #154
    Moderator MikeEdgerton's Avatar
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    Default Re: An open letter to Classifieds users

    On the top menu bar you'll see a selection that says Donate.
    "It's comparable to playing a cheese slicer."
    --M. Stillion

    "Bargain instruments are no bargains if you can't play them"
    --J. Garber

  5. #155

    Thumbs up Here's to you Scott.

    Scott,

    I sold a mandolin a while back using the classifieds, and have used them on and off since the 90's. I wanted to send a payment (wasn't a real expensive one), but didn't see an easy way to do so. I was thinking I would send payment when I purchased a cap, but the system didn't allow that. I don't like using paypal much and have no balance there.... I would be happy to send payment now, but please direct me to a way to do that. You are the best, and MandolinCafe is the best.

    Richard Bailey
    aka mandofanatic@gmail.com

  6. #156
    Administrator Mandolin Cafe's Avatar
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    Default Re: An open letter to Classifieds users

    Thanks for your support. There's a link shown below on every Classifieds page, plus a separate section with a link and donate graphic in the middle of the page with every Classified screen anytime there's an ad submission, edit or delete.

    Click image for larger version. 

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  7. #157

    Default Re: An open letter to Classifieds users

    Ya know this got me thinking it's time to donate a few bucks again not because I sold something but because I use this site a lot ! And actually got on a newbie yesterday who was looking for Free mando lessons I was polite and told him "nobody works for free" I think the majority of site users would or maybe they do donate too keep this site going but probably like me they get busy and just forget. With that said how about shooting out blast email to remind us to chip in a few bucks once or twice a year. Hopefully if you did that it wouldn't be more work for free !
    Thanks for keeping this site going
    Lou

  8. #158
    Registered User Charlie Bernstein's Avatar
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    Default Re: An open letter to Classifieds users

    The main local guitar store here charges 25%. Reverb.com charges something like 6%. Craigslist is free and not moderated, and therefore a scammers' mosh pit. Ebay forces buyers and sellers to use Paypal, another racket.

    There are other sites that seem to be managed better than Craig's and are free, like TDPRI and Harmony Central. But they have access to a lot more advertising dollars than a mando-dedicated site can ever hope for - like much bigger Fender, Taylor, and Gibson bucks, for instance.

    So all things considered, at 2% for a moderated classified section, Mandolin Cafe is a sweet deal, indeed.

    Your letter should have cleared the air. If it didn't, nothing will!

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  10. #159

    Default Re: An open letter to Classifieds users

    Quote Originally Posted by Scott Tichenor View Post
    I'm typically not one to engage in open letters to the community, but something has been gnawing at my brain for a very long time. A few days ago I was contacted by a buyer with a question regarding a transaction with a well known seller with a lot of transactions. This resulted in several hours of my time invested in resolving the situation amicably so that the sale stuck. That's my job, but I also do it without pay most of the time, and when I'm putting in hours of free time for the benefit of a seller with a history of not supporting the site or supporting it poorly that makes me very unhappy.

    The individual I dealt with expressed surprise in my tone of voice. He was right. This has been building for a long time and rather than shooting a dart at one person I thought more therapeutic to share that email here composed to no specific name. So allow me to engage in a bit of therapy, and I do need to get this off my chest.

    This is not meant to be a "roll call" for those that have contributed fairly or those that have not. Just read it and think about it. If I could be assured of that much I'd be pleased.

    --------------

    Dear (name removed)

    Let me explain part of my displeasure with your use of the Classifieds. As much as you use them I think you deserve as much. I apologize if my contact the other day sounded a bit harsh. I have very good reason. I thought about not saying anything but I really think I should get this off my chest, and it's clear I need to. I don't like harboring ill feelings. It's unhealthy, so allow me to engage in a bit of therapy.

    It has always been a part of the Classifieds policy that we ask for a 2% donation back to the Mandolin Cafe to offset operating expenses on successful sales. Maybe you're under the impression the Cafe rolls in money and that this all happens by magic and that no effort is involved. Not the case. I can't begin to calculate how much protection sellers and buyers benefit from every day, the scams and bad sellers that attempt contact you'll never hear from. It all looks like it's wide open, doesn't it? That's the beauty. You're being protected at every use and the people trying to take advantage of you never find out, and neither do you. Site security is a 24-hour operation because people wanting to take advantage are knocking on the door round the clock. Dan Beimborn and I have invested hundreds of hours in the security of the Classifieds, and because of those efforts we're as close to fraud free as Classifieds and sales resources get on the internet. I compensate Dan quite well for his work. That's my opinion, I think he'd agree, and he's welcome to weigh in.

    Continually dipping the hand in the cookie jar and not supporting the site or sub-par contributing is little more than poor taste. Successful resources on the internet come at a price. They're not free, and it doesn't appear there by magic. It's the result of hard work, diligence and showing up every day, multiple times to make sure it's right. Holidays included.

    The Classifieds are the way they are by design. They're intended as a perk for site visitors.

    Let me make this very clear: I have no interest in engaging in forced up front PayPal or credit card payments or the possession of your credit card number in return for the privilege of placing or replying to an ad.

    If you contact us with a concern about a Classified ad, a human answers--me. Try that at Reverb, eBay or Craig's List. Two of those don't let you off without paying.

    I'd like to think this is just an oversight, but I know from the numbers of people that engage in this that it's just in poor taste.

    I love running this web site and there are many benefits. I will continue to do so, but seeing people use the Classifieds continually and not supporting us in return is just sad. So, you asked a question and I answered.

    Scott Tichenor
    Mandolin Cafe
    Since 1995
    Scott,
    Thank you for so eloquently describing your position. In support of Mandolin Cafe's excellent service, I've successfully posted Classified Ads on Mandolin Cafe, am very grateful for the service you provide and have gladly paid for it. It's worth every dime of the portion you rightly deserve. Unfortunately, there are always those who mis-use, mistreat and take advantage of the good-hearted, honest souls of this world. However, I respectully disagree with your good-natured wording quoted here: "Continually dipping the hand in the cookie jar and not supporting the site or sub-par contributing is little more than poor taste". "Poor taste" is inaccurate...call it what it is..."S-T-E-A-L-I-N-G". Perhaps it would be helpful to make your site visitors blatantly aware of the site's operational policies. I think you have every right to put it right up front in big red capital letters and find ways to make it tougher for the bad guys to mis-use the system. After all, like the bad guys, you are human, you are a fellow musician and you don't deserve that treatment. Moreover, THEY DON'T DESERVE your good service!!!
    R. Perry, Rochester NY

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  12. #160

    Default Re: An open letter to Classifieds users

    Quote Originally Posted by rjperry5 View Post
    ... you are a fellow musician...
    And a darned *good* musician too, I heard a recording somewhere last year of Scott playing. I wasn't expecting him to sound that good, I had thought he just runs a website and tries to keep us rummies from straying too far out of line. Turns out he plays good *and* runs a website. Cool!

    Not kissing up, just stating my observation. The usual NFI etc etc.

    Ok, off to my corner now, since I'm off-topic (again).

  13. #161
    Registered User double E's Avatar
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    Default Re: An open letter to Classifieds users

    I have not read all this thread so what Im about to say may be in here. Im new to the cafe. I am long time banjo player and member of the Banjo Hangout for years. I have bought and sold a good amount there and have no problem with the way the donation thing works. There its 2% or $75 which ever is the less. I dont know if its a flat 2% here or not. I haven't tried to figure it out yet. Im having fun with recently finally getting me a mandolin after all these years. Love my Bluegrass! EE

  14. #162
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    Default Re: An open letter to Classifieds users

    I'd like to subscribe to the MC, also would like info on paying the 2% with each post (I haven't posted anything yet, but intend to eventually). Finally, would like information about advertising.

    Thanks!

  15. #163
    Registered User Peter K's Avatar
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    Default Re: An open letter to Classifieds users

    Free-loading is a rather common behaviour in people. Mandatory subscription to the Classified section might improve the site $ support situation, instead of a reliance on voluntary contributions. Only those members with a valid subscription would be allowed to post in the Classifieds. The yearly subscription amount could be something of the order of $50. Just a thought.

  16. #164
    Registered User Ranald's Avatar
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    Default Re: An open letter to Classifieds users

    Quote Originally Posted by Peter K View Post
    Free-loading is a rather common behaviour in people. Mandatory subscription to the Classified section might improve the site $ support situation, instead of a reliance on voluntary contributions. Only those members with a valid subscription would be allowed to post in the Classifieds. The yearly subscription amount could be something of the order of $50. Just a thought.
    I appreciate the fact that Mandolin Cafe uses an honour system, though it doesn't always work. Many of the people selling things are amateur musicians and not commercial salespeople. I wouldn't pay a $50 annual fee, so that I could occasionally sell a music book for $20, or perhaps an instrument for $300 once in a life time. Such a charge would eliminate the use of Mandolin Cafe Classifieds as a sales place for many members. The 2% fee is better than reasonable. However, if I were sell that $20 book, and sent the 2% immediately, it would cost me more to transfer the money than the actual donation of forty cents. I make an occasional donation to the Cafe, though I haven't sold anything yet, and would include the 2% on a small item within that donation. However, if I were selling a $300 instrument, I'd be happy to send my 2% (and probably a bit extra) as soon as the transaction was complete. I thank the Cafe people for running things as they do, and will trust them to deal with "freeloaders" if this becomes a serious problem. And phooey on those who exploit the system.
    Robert Johnson's mother, describing blues musicians:
    "I never did have no trouble with him until he got big enough to be round with bigger boys and off from home. Then he used to follow all these harp blowers, mandoleen (sic) and guitar players."
    Lomax, Alan, The Land where The Blues Began, NY: Pantheon, 1993, p.14.

  17. #165
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    Default Re: An open letter to Classifieds users

    I believe it's perfectly acceptable to 'stack up' transactions, especially those under a certain sale amount, then make a donation after a few sales. That's what I do, anyway. Yes, the 2% is a downright bargain.

  18. #166
    plectrist Ryk Loske's Avatar
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    Default Re: An open letter to Classifieds users

    Not only is it a bargain ... it is wonderfully safe. Scott does a phenomenal job policing the classifieds. There's a recent thread over on the Banjo Hangout that addresses problems folks have had with both sellers and buyers that just doesn't happen here.
    Thank you Scott,
    Ryk
    mandolin ~ guitar ~ banjo

    "I'm convinced that playing well is not so much a technique as it is a decision. It's a commitment to do the work, strive for concentration, get strategic about advancing by steps, and push patiently forward toward the goal." Dan Crary

  19. #167
    Administrator Mandolin Cafe's Avatar
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    Default Re: An open letter to Classifieds users

    I'd like to address the previous four posts as I find something there in each that I can confirm or comment further on why things are as they are.

    Yes, freeloading is still common, but has risks. There are no second chances. There are also no secrets on the internet so people should understand they are being watched. When I find someone that is not contributing but playing the game with frequency and not contributing, by the time I contact them they're gone and won't be using this resource again.

    You have to remember the stance on this since launching the Classifieds in 1998 has not changed: they're a perk for visitors to this site. I enjoy providing the service and the content it provides--some use them to make their living, and I'm fine with that--but I do expect 2% in return for successful sales to ensure this site continues to operate. That said, if you're the guy that lives an 8 hour drive away from a local retailer and you're on a shoestring making one sale every 7-8 years in order to upgrade I can let that slide. There's a record of every ad, every reply, and I can pull them up in a moment's notice. I talk to far more people involved in classifieds deals than the forum. Easily 5-1. If someone is here daily or every few days working the classifieds, I'm watching. I routinely remove a small number of sellers from time to time that are clearly gaming the system, and I state up front why I've done so.

    Up front subscription based use: not going to happen. This is largely a one-person operation. It works fine as it is. Strong arming by charging up front would be a guarantee for a small niche site such as this to fail. The amount of administrative work, added responsibility and programming to get into that is something I have no interest in. I'd rather spend time developing valuable content and assisting visitors and business partners. Could I make more money by doing so? I don't know and don't particularly care. Making "X" amount has never been the ultimate goal. I love what I do and rise every morning looking forward to working. How many can say that about their day job?

    Stacking transactions: yes, preferred. Sending a dollar donation means PayPal is rewarded exactly one third of the amount. Donate 50 cents and the Cafe gets 19 of those after PayPal. Send a $2 donation and request stickers which I'm happy to send and I end up with about 40 cents.

    Costs to operate... What, this internets thingy costs money???? What I pay for a dedicated server is larger than the mortgage payments many of you are making. Dedicated, no sharing, top of the line speed, our optimal operating system of choice. Why is this site faster and more responsive than so many others? First-rate equipment and a system administrator Facebook would love to hire, especially after yesterday, but can't. And yes, I pay him well. And I'm reminded our hosting cost just took a 50% leap due to changes where we get our access. Must be nice to call the shots on your own raises.

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  21. #168

    Default Re: An open letter to Classifieds users

    That’s all rather vague.
    What’s your net profit each year?
    Object to this post? Find out how to ignore me here!

  22. #169

    Default Re: An open letter to Classifieds users

    From what I can glean on the Paypal site, Paypal takes 2.9% + 30cent transaction fee. So a $1 donation doesn't leave much, but a $10 donation fares much better. Hence the encouragement for stacking.

    So, estimating a bit here, if I sell a mandolin for $300, that's a $6 donation, about $5.50 of which gets through. Yes?

    Sadly, that means Paypal gets more of each sale than MC does, if the purchase also went through paypal.
    Davey Stuart tenor guitar (based on his 18" mandola design).
    Eastman MD-604SB with Grover 309 tuners.
    Eastwood 4 string electric mandostang, 2x Airline e-mandola (4-string) one strung as an e-OM.
    DSP's: Helix HX Stomp, various Zooms.
    Amps: THR-10, Sony XB-20.

  23. #170
    Martin Stillion mrmando's Avatar
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    Default Re: An open letter to Classifieds users

    Quote Originally Posted by JonZ View Post
    That’s all rather vague.
    What’s your net profit each year?
    I'm sure we'd all love to know that, but I'm equally sure it's none of our business.

    PayPal does have an option that allows users to avoid fees for certain types of transactions, but that might create other headaches for Scott, since I don't think donations to the site would count as that type of transaction.
    Emando.com: More than you wanted to know about electric mandolins.

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  24. #171
    This Kid Needs Practice Bill Clements's Avatar
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    Default Re: An open letter to Classifieds users

    Donations for our efforts by check can be mailed to the address below.

    Mandolin Cafe
    1100 New Jersey St.
    Lawrence, KS 66044-3354
    Scott, if more of us donate using this method, would that help your bottom line without causing too much grief?
    My check will be in the mail tomorrow.
    "Music is the only noise for which one is obliged to pay." ~ Alexander Dumas

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  26. #172
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    Default Re: An open letter to Classifieds users

    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Clements View Post
    Scott, if more of us donate using this method, would that help your bottom line without causing too much grief?
    My check will be in the mail tomorrow.
    That's the way I did it, send a check nothing lost.
    THE WORLD IS A BETTER PLACE JUST FOR YOUR SMILE!

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  28. #173
    Administrator Mandolin Cafe's Avatar
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    Default Re: An open letter to Classifieds users

    A donation is just that, the method doesn't matter. I admit to tiring at seeing how well PayPal pays itself for smaller donations but that's just the way it is.

  29. #174
    Registered User Tom Sanderson's Avatar
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    Default Re: An open letter to Classifieds users

    Scott,
    What is the best way to donate that cuts out the middle man? If it is sending you a check in the mail the old fashion way, I’d be happy to do that. Recently I posted an ad in the wanted section for a Kentucky tailpiece cover. Another Cafe member replied and is sending me one free of charge including shipping. I donated one dollar via PayPal thinking that although it is a small amount, you would get one dollar, which is not even enough to cover the value of the service I received from the use of your classified ad service, but I felt that I needed to pay you something. Now I feel like I rewarded PayPal instead of you.

  30. #175
    Administrator Mandolin Cafe's Avatar
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    Default Re: An open letter to Classifieds users

    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Sanderson View Post
    Scott,
    What is the best way to donate that cuts out the middle man? If it is sending you a check in the mail the old fashion way, I’d be happy to do that. Recently I posted an ad in the wanted section for a Kentucky tailpiece cover. Another Cafe member replied and is sending me one free of charge including shipping. I donated one dollar via PayPal thinking that although it is a small amount, you would get one dollar, which is not even enough to cover the value of the service I received from the use of your classified ad service, but I felt that I needed to pay you something. Now I feel like I rewarded PayPal instead of you.
    I love PayPal, don't get me wrong. Lots of reasons to like it and use it, but a check still works best on this end. I've actually had people donate 30 cents which PayPal takes, drumroll... wait for it... 29 of those. I've had 25 cent donations, too, they take all of that.

    If you want an easy window into their profit margin, lots of small sites that calculate their fees. I use this one: http://thefeecalculator.com/

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