Mandolin vs. Mandola?

[Pasha Alden]

Thank you AllenHopkins and Tobin, as always there is something to learn.

[Pasha Alden]

Agree with you AllenHopkins: perhaps the head of each family violin related instruments of course, needs our serious reconsideration.

[Explorer]

Please pardon my being a young mandola player: that is a beginner. A total novice. I need to understand: why did we adopt tuning of tenor banjo FOR mandola? Is it easier to play?

So my question: advantages of this kind of tuning? What would happen if I choose tuning my mandola to one tuning suggested above?

There are advantages and trade-offs from one tuning to the next.

Usually one of the main spectra in a set of tuning choice relates to how centered a tuning is upon playing in a particular key or set of related keys. Generalizing that even further, some instruments have large filters built in which make initial play easier, but which disallow circumventing those filters, or make such circumvention extremely difficult.

To give two examples of the latter, imagine a theremin and a child's diatonic xylophone. The xylophone eliminates all pitches outside of one scale. There's no way to play a do-re-mi scale, and then to easily play a tone of do sharp. The theremin, on the other hand, easily allows playing the whole spectrum of pitch, but it has absolutely no physical barriers or guides to help the player play a *specific* pitch out of all the pitch positions in three-dimensional space available.

One can learn to apply such filters physically, building the filters out of habit, and such theremin filters remain easy to get around.

Going a little less extremely, the mandolin has frets which still allow chromatic playing, and the violin has less filters than the mandolin, but still provides a physical fretboard which a player can learn to use as a tool to accurately play pitches.

With tunings, some tunings, while called "open tunings," are actually closed to keys which are unrelated to their basis. For example, the 5-string banjo in bluegrass is typically tipuned to an open G tuning, and so most bluegrass banjo tunes are centered on that key and its relatives. Further, the drone string places a physical filter/limit on what pitches can be assigned to that drone.

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With mandolin-family instruments, including CBOMs, the trade-offs generally favor being either drone-centered and key-centric, or ungrounded in a particular key and able to move equally easily in quite a few. Some of the drone-y tunings sound *great* for that narrow application and musical styles which remain in that narrow range.

For my tastes, I much prefer having a wider range of notes available to me. I have spent time building my internal mental filters for full fifths tuning. On an instrument with a given number of strings, I generally have a wider range, easily perceived when you compare the oprn string range of a ukulele an octave and a whole step) with a mandolin (an octave and a sixth).

There is one other spectrum which changes as one adds strings/courses, that of how difficult it is to make barre chords. In standard guitar tuning, barre chords make use of all the strings. On my six-course mandophone in full fifths tuning, a lot of the barre chords can only use five of the courses easily in a chord.

If one is going to a radically different tuning on a more permanent basis, it's always good to change the string gauges to keep the tension in line with what the instrument was built for.

[Pasha Alden]

Thanks Explorer. Very interesting. In the context of "filters" and tuning so that only certain notes are easily available, a good example is also the marimba. Capable of e flat, b flat, f major minor and a flat minor, a few others related chords, but certainly never heard it in C major, d e g etc. All very interesting.

[Mandobart]

I really enjoy five coursed instruments. I have a 5 string viola (C-G-D-A-E), a 10 string mandola (same tuning, octave pairs on C, G and D) and a 10 string mandocello tuned like the 'dola, just an octave lower. The extra E on the 16.5" viola gives me the full range of the viola and violin. The 17" 10 string mandola covers the full range of both mandolin and mandola. The 26" 10 string 'cello covers the full range of the mandocello and OM. Each instrument has the added depth and warmth of having a bigger, deeper body while still having an expanded range.

[Pasha Alden]

Mandobart, it sounds absolutely wonderful.

I assume then that with the lower notes of dola we have sacrificed some higher pitch of mandolin?
That is if I understand the tuning correctly?

[Explorer]

The 17" 10 string mandola covers the full range of both mandolin and mandola.

17" is a pretty astonishing scale length for E5, considering 15" is pretty close to the breaking point.

Do you have any issues with breakage on that high E5 course?

[jimmy powells]

Without doubt mandolin first. I've lost count of the number of people who buy a mandola and it they become wall hangers. For bluegrass and folk anything in key of A becomes E on Mandola and when beginning I think most would agree that playing in E is not the easiest start so I'd get to grips with mandolin for 2 or 3 years before going don the mandola line.

[Tobin]

Without doubt mandolin first. I've lost count of the number of people who buy a mandola and it they become wall hangers. For bluegrass and folk anything in key of A becomes E on Mandola and when beginning I think most would agree that playing in E is not the easiest start so I'd get to grips with mandolin for 2 or 3 years before going don the mandola line.

This is one reason I think a capo is an essential tool for the mandola. It's not well suited for some keys that are commonly used, and the longer scale makes it tough to play in closed positions, unless you have very large hands. So while I won't use a capo on the mandolin, I do find it very useful on the mandola.

Granted, even that can be confusing for beginners. But it's an option.

[Mandobart]

Mandobart, it sounds absolutely wonderful.

I assume then that with the lower notes of dola we have sacrificed some higher pitch of mandolin?
That is if I understand the tuning correctly?

No, my mandolin-dola completely covers the range of both the mandolin and mandola. Because it has a mandola body (bigger and deeper than a mandolin) and oval hole, even on the E strings it sounds more like a mandola. Here is an old video clip of it. You could get your own from my friend Tom Jessen (scroll down his web page about half way to get to the 10 stringers).

17" is a pretty astonishing scale length for E5, considering 15" is pretty close to the breaking point.

Do you have any issues with breakage on that high E5 course?

When I use .011 E's, yes. When I use .010 E's, sometimes. When I use .0095 E's, no breakage (yet).

[Pasha Alden]

Thanks to Mandobart. Also thanks to Tobin. On what fret do you start the capo? I may try the capo on mandola, just while my hand becomes tough enough for that closed position e.

[Jared Heddinger]

...And doesn't "violin" mean "little viola"? Maybe we should reconsider who the "head" of each "family" is...

Interestingly enough, this is how all the string instruments got their name. The violin family descended from the instrument called a viol, like you said, which then became a viola when played against the chest. Add in the Italian suffix -ino (meaning little), and you get violin(o). Then they added the suffix -one (meaning big) to create the violone, which eventually became the bass. Lastly, we have the cello. Unfortunately, they already made the big viola, and the little viola, so how do you fit another in between? Another suffix of course! So they took the violone, and added another suffix -cello (little or smaller), to get violoncello. So basically violoncello means "big violin (but not too big)".

Also, like you said, mandolin instruments came from the old Italian mandola. They were shaped like almonds and the name came from those - mandorla (NOT a modification of violin). Then Mr. Gibson made the mandocello as we know it.

[allenhopkins]

...Then Mr. Gibson made the mandocello as we know it.

Well, there were mandocelli before Gibson came along; I have a bowl-back Waldo that probably pre-dates the Gibsons (1907?) by a couple years. However, I agree that the contemporary mandocello, whether "mandolin"-bodied or guitar-bodied, generally follows Gibson prototypes.

Great explication of the derivation of instrument names!

[Jared Heddinger]

Interesting!! I had no idea Waldo predated Gibson. I was always under the impression that the name mandocello was coined by Gibson to fill his idea of a mandolin quartet. I always figured prior to that the bass instrument was either a liuto cantabile or moderno.

[allenhopkins]

Interesting!! I had no idea Waldo predated Gibson...

The Mugwumps "Encyclopedia of American Fretted Musical Instrument Makers," my usual "go-to" for info like this, lists Waldo as "1891-1903." Earliest reference to a Gibson mandocello I can find in the Mandolin Archive is 1907.

The Waldo is basically a really big bowl-back with f-holes, using the same construction that most bowl-back makers used (other than lacking a tail block, which I have had constructed for me when the tailpiece pulled off and took some of the binding with it). Nothing like the Gibson style, either larger versions of G's A-model and F-model mandolins (K-1 through K-4), or eight-string versions of their carved-top guitars (K-5).

There are actually still bowl-back mandocelli being made, but the templates for the modern mandocello are surely Gibson's designs.

[Pasha Alden]

What an interesting discussion and always something I didn't know.

[lmartnla]

[QUOTE=Tobin;1514106]This is one reason I think a capo is an essential tool for the mandola.

What would be a good safe capo to use on an old Gibson H4 mandola? I'll gt one and start playing mine out more often. Thanks---Lou

[foldedpath]

This is one reason I think a capo is an essential tool for the mandola. It's not well suited for some keys that are commonly used, and the longer scale makes it tough to play in closed positions, unless you have very large hands. So while I won't use a capo on the mandolin, I do find it very useful on the mandola.

Granted, even that can be confusing for beginners. But it's an option.

When I had a mandola for a couple of years, I frequently used a capo on the 2nd fret for playing OldTime and Irish/Scottish fiddle tunes. That puts you in DAEB, where the bottom three strings are the same as the upper three strings on a mandolin or fiddle. Since the vast majority of "fiddle tunes" only use the upper three strings (DAE) I could easily play them by just shifting over one set of strings. The capo trick also gives you a high B for fiddle tunes that you can hit on the open top string, instead of using a pinky stretch.

I think this is a fairly common trick for trad players who own a mandola, because you still have access to CGDA if you're playing other styles of music. Pasha, you may want to try this capo at the second fret idea, if you're experimenting.

As it turned out, I was using the capo all the time, so I just switched to a different set of custom strings and kept the mandola in DAEB all the time. And I eventually sold it, because there was just too much overlap with what I could do on my octave mandolin.

[David Houchens]

foldedpath, What were the string gauges you used to tune in DAEB

[Tobin]

What would be a good safe capo to use on an old Gibson H4 mandola? I'll gt one and start playing mine out more often. Thanks---Lou

On my '17 H4, I tried using a Shubb banjo capo, but it just wouldn't open wide enough to accommodate that fat neck. I ended up with a Paige Clik capo (banjp/mandolin capo with no radius). Off the top of my head, I can't remember if I got the wide profile one or not, but I don't think so. I think the standard one fit the width of my H4 neck at the 2nd fret, which is where I typically use it. I can check this evening when I get home and make sure.

[foldedpath]

foldedpath, What were the string gauges you used to tune in DAEB

I'll tell you, but it may not be very helpfu, because it was a weird mandola.

It was a Breedlove "Radim Zenkl" model, with four single strings instead of double courses, and a humbucker pickup at the end of the fretboard. Designed for fingerstyle playing, basically, but otherwise a normal Breedlove carved archtop body and mandola scale length. I needed nickel wound strings for the humbucker, so I settled on Thomastik flatwounds. A further complication was the tailpiece was designed for ball-end strings, so I used TI flatwounds from their electric guitar series.

I don't know how much of this would translate to a good string set on a traditional double-course mandola tuned DAEB, but for what it's worth, here are the gauges and calculated string tensions (TI nickel flatwounds):

B .012 - 20.6 lb
E .018 - 21.74 lb
A .028 - 21.41 lb (wound)
D .044 - 22.37 lb (wound)

[Tobin]

Ok, so I checked, and I have the standard width Paige Clik capo. It fits my '17 H4 up to the third fret, but that's it. Any further up, and you'd need the wide version.

The depth for the V neck shape is fine.

[Dustin86]

I know this is awhile after the OP, but thought this could clear things up a bit, concerning which came first. A lot of similar names reused for new and old instruments are the cause for the confusion. The Mandolin family, as we know it now, begins with the Mandolin. But it’s always a fun debate of “which came first”. ��

https://www.themandolintuner.com/man...s-and-history/

[Explorer]

I know this is awhile after the OP, but thought this could clear things up a bit, concerning which came first. A lot of similar names reused for new and old instruments are the cause for the confusion. The Mandolin family, as we know it now, begins with the Mandolin.

I recommend you do a bit more research. It really seems you've missed out on the available historical record. That page you provided didn't even list the dates when the various instruments emerged, which would indeed clear up which instruments came first....

[kurth83]

I play both, I started on mandolin though.

Mandola fits certain needs I guess, it gets down near guitar range, fun and useful to have around for certain things, I would never want just one or the other.