Is yours loud enough?

[Ray(T)]

I am in the envious position of owning several guitars and mandolins which can hold their own and be clearly heard in sessions. Unfortunately, the same can't be said of my octave mandolin. The thing is loud enough at home - it's a quality, luthier built, carved top GBOM so I don't think I'm likely to find anything louder.

What do other people find? Are your OMs quieter than your mandolins or is it down to timbre and the frequencies they produce?

[Steve Ostrander]

What do other people find? Are your OMs quieter than your mandolins or is it down to timbre and the frequencies they produce?

My OM is a flat-top TC and it is not especially loud, but loud enough for me to play solo. But when I play it in our trio the guitar and bass players complain that it isn't loud enough.

I think timbre and frequency has a lot to do with it. Some of the notes I'm playing on OM are the same as on the guitar, so they blend instead of stand out. Also, there is an acoustical phenomenon that makes the human ear perceive higher notes as louder than lower notes. I became aware of this when I played bass. For example, the low E string of a bass played at 90dB will not sound as loud as the high E string on a mandolin at 90 dB. So that's why my mandolin cuts through in the trio, and that's one reason why they prefer that I play the mandolin. We cover more octaves that way.

[foldedpath]

I agree with Steve that an OM operates at something of a disadvantage due to timbre and frequency. Especially in an Irish (or similar) pub session where just about every sustaining instrument is louder than any fretted instrument except a banjo.

When I'm plying in a loud session, the initial "ping" attack of my mandolin is in a pitch range high enough to be heard, and contribute something to the overall sound. An OM, even a very good one, doesn't have that same "cut" to get through the group. So even though I have a very nice Weber archtop with plenty of volume when played solo, I tend to stick to backing and not melody playing when I bring it to a session. Arpeggiated chordal backing can be heard more easily underneath the melody players, because many of the notes are harmonized and not identical to the melody line.

That said, there are differences in the volume and timbre of various OMs. Most I've heard sound about the same in volume, but there was one Big Muddy a friend had that just didn't have much volume at all (and it wasn't the player).

I think it's also possible that smaller body OMs like the "big Gibson" style and "Celtic teardrop" style might be more clearly heard in a session than the larger guitar-based GBOM bodies that tend to emphasize the bass range. Too much bass can muddy up the sound. That's one reason for the traditional popularity of bouzoukis: they have fairly small bodies and an emphasis on a thinner and brighter timbre within this same pitch range. The darker the timbre, the harder it is to be heard in a session. But there are so many differences between individual builders and instruments that this may not be a limiting factor.

[Narayan Kersak]

I used to have a Trinity College Black Face OM. I put Mandola strings on it I think .014 guage for the high ee's. That thing roared. It could be heard in a session of no more than 8 people... more than that...I stuck to chords.

[Bertram Henze]

I have been admonished in sessions for playing too loud (also by banjo players, yes). I blame three factors:

- a floating bridge on two single feet; there's nothing like it for moving the top.
- heavy-handed playing (three middle fingers in a row, the thumb presses the pick against them)
- doublestops and full chords whenever possible

[Narayan Kersak]

Where can I get a floating bridge!?

[Bertram Henze]

Where can I get a floating bridge!?

That Trinity College has one, afaik. The solid floating bridge can be made to stand on two feet by filing the middle out, but experimentation is in order before that. I did my experimenting with standing the solid bridge on two thin aluminum plates, to find out if there was an effect and if the top was built to withstand the pointed pressure.

[Lord of the Badgers]

I use mine pretty much in the solo mould - though I really want to form a small band as a different thing to the main one to accommodate my CBOMs.
If I want to use something in a jam it'll be the mandolin. My forster is pretty loud, but the above comments in terms of timbre does mitigate that.

Also, I hate thrashing it my zouk/cittern, lots of people do that, and it often kills the sound of the instrument making it harsh and clashy sounding. I convinced a mate that zouks were actually nice things because a guy in his mando group was guilty of totally thrashing his; whereas I try to play with dynamics.

But that prob wouldn't work in a session!

[Bertram Henze]

...I try to play with dynamics.

But that prob wouldn't work in a session!

That's right. Dynamics in a session are quite simple: you're heard, or not.
If an instrument sounds harsh (i.e. more noise than tone) when played loudly it is not really up to that volume. But those exist that are.

[Ray(T)]

Thanks for the contributions so far; you've more or less confirmed what I was thinking.

I've often thought that it's more a case of the percieved volume of an instrument rather than its actual volume. As such, I'm convinced that my Kimble F mandolin "sounds" louder than my National RM-1. I think it's going to be a case of choosing which instrument to play depending upon who turns up at the session��

[multidon]

I have always had a problem with this notion of being loud enough to be "heard" in a "large session".

I would presume that EVERYONE in these "large sessions" is "trying to be heard"? So then, when someone actually is loud enough to be heard over everyone else, don't you think everyone else increases THEIR volume level because they fear they aren't being heard?

Seems to me it would be akin to a middle school cafeteria. If you have ever experienced that, then you know that roaring sound is the result of hundreds of children TRYING TO BE HEARD simultaneously.

Unless one has a solo, isn't the point for everyone to blend their sound? I think the only way you wouldn't be contributing is if you make no sound. Any sound at all, even if it doesn't stick out, contributes to the overall sound.

I am reminded of the story about the parents of the last chair violin player in a large school orchestra. After the concert, mom and dad told her "we thought you were the best one!".

[Lord of the Badgers]

Don.. yep.

[Eddie Sheehy]

I think that most of your sound is 'going away' from you, so for you to hear your sound at the same level, or louder, than the instruments whose sound is coming at you you'd really have to wail on your instrument and sacrifice tone for sheer volume. Of course it depends on the size of the session, the smaller sessions tend to blend the overall sound better without sacrificing lilt and cadence in volume. Best way to get a measure of your instrument's volume is to play it facing a wall or corner and get a feel for the volume and sound bouncing back to you. In a larger session you should just be concerned with having enough volume to start a tune so everyone hears what you're starting. If you want to seriously compete with Pipes and Fiddles in a large setting get a Tenor Banjo.

[foldedpath]

I have always had a problem with this notion of being loud enough to be "heard" in a "large session".

I would presume that EVERYONE in these "large sessions" is "trying to be heard"? So then, when someone actually is loud enough to be heard over everyone else, don't you think everyone else increases THEIR volume level because they fear they aren't being heard?

Seems to me it would be akin to a middle school cafeteria. If you have ever experienced that, then you know that roaring sound is the result of hundreds of children TRYING TO BE HEARD simultaneously.

That might happen in a beginner session because everyone is focusing more on being able to play the notes, so they're listening more to themselves than anyone else. The beauty of a good, well-oiled session is that it's unison melody, so you actually have to play at a volume level where you can hear everyone else. Otherwise you're lost, and you fall off the bus.

There are a few other things that tend to limit volume overdrive. Several of the mainstream instruments like fiddle, flute, and whistle are played much closer to the ear than we play fretted instruments. It doesn't mean there won't be the occasional session in volume overdrive, but playing an instrument that close to your ear does tend to be a built-in limiter on being able to hear anything else if you play too loud.

And as Eddie mentioned, we have the opposite issue with fretted instruments further away from our ears, that project forward more than we can hear directly. So we're the ones that tend to worry about "am I loud enough?" I don't think I've ever heard a fiddler ask that question.

[Mandobart]

My Tom Jessen F4 OM is quite loud. Carved archtop, x-braced, 21.5" scale. I use octave pairs on the G, D and A courses. It is louder than any of the guitars in our jams (unless I bring my Altamira gypsy jazz guitar). I also use 2.0 to 3.0 mm Wegen picks.

[Bertram Henze]

The general competition is not so much against other musicians as it is against the chatter of the non-musicians around them. A good session will attract lots of those, like moths.

[Tavy]

That's right. Dynamics in a session are quite simple: you're heard, or not.
If an instrument sounds harsh (i.e. more noise than tone) when played loudly it is not really up to that volume. But those exist that are.

The issue as well is "harsh in what context?", you should be able to drive your 'zouk hard in a solo setting and still sound good (albeit there is a point at which the strings within the pair start slapping into each other - and that's going to get nasty sounding no matter how good the instrument). In other words you should be able to project well when playing acoustically in a large room. Sounding good in a session is another matter - if there's a lot of mid range clutter - as there usually is - then what you hear as "your instrument" is largely the difference between it and everything else around it - typically a random selection of higher frequencies which may well sound rather harsh on their own.

On the other hand.... if you're playing chords and providing the rhythmic backing, then the chances are you'll be the loudest thing in the room doing that (12 string guitars and accordions not withstanding) and you get to set the tone and everyone else sounds like @~{}(*

[Jim Garber]

I think you have to get National to make their RM-1 with an octave neck.

[foldedpath]

I think you have to get National to make their RM-1 with an octave neck.

Now there's a thought. Although if it's anything like the RM-1 it would weigh a ton!

There are resonator tenor guitars, including some inexpensive options now. At that point though, you might as well just jump directly to tenor banjo. I've just never been able to do it. I have major banjo blockage. Never been a fan of that sound except in small doses.

[Jim Garber]

I had a vintage National but I did not like the sound. The RM-1 actually sounds like a mandolin but is very loud and very directional. It is the only mandolin that I can hear in a large jam session. They do have a custom shop. An RM-1 body with an 8 string tenor neck should work, I would think.

[derbex]

and accordions not withstanding

wherin lies the problem, sadly.

[AMandolin]

I have a Flatiron Bouzouki in birds eye maple that is plenty loud in an Irish session.
I bought it new in the 80's and still love it.

[Barry Wilson]

My Gold Tone isn't that loud and when playing plugged in I have to be so very careful of feedback (when playing in the band situation). I just took off the putty mounting for the bags and tried sticky tape. that changed the timbre to brighter.

it's funny because the Gold Tone mandola really cuts through loud and clear acoustically and with the exact same pickup

[Tim N]

I get the impression that my Irish bouzouki rings out far more fully if I hold it out away from my stomach (I don't have much of one!) I guess that's a well-known phenomenem. But yes, in a group of other instruments it does rather go under when played acoustically. However, the sight of someone playing bouzouki or OM is just as important...isn't it?

[allenhopkins]

I have a Flatiron Bouzouki in birds eye maple that is plenty loud in an Irish session.
I bought it new in the 80's and still love it.

Ditto, except my 3K is loa.