Popping the grain on a natural finish.

[fscotte]

So I am thinking of a natural finish on maple, but not sure if lacquer will give me the result I want. When I rub the mando down with mineral spirits, the grain really pops. I've never put lacquer straight onto bare wood... so will the lacquer pop the grain like the mineral spirits do? Is there something else you natural finishers do for the best result?

[Bill McCall]

I've never heard of using lacquer without a sealer, but people do different things. You might want to use a sample stick and put the finish you want down in steps to see the reaction of the finish at each step, all the way to the final step. You could certainly use multiple samples to experiment.

[Spruce]

...so will the lacquer pop the grain like the mineral spirits do?

OK, there's grain, which are the tree's growth rings...
...and then there's flame, which is the figuring in the wood....

So-ooo, I think your question should be: "...will the lacquer pop the flame like the mineral spirits do?"

A lot of violin makers, for instance, are trying to highlight the figuring and mask the graining...
Especially in a wood like Bigleaf, which tends to have prominent grain, especially compared to European maple...

[fscotte]

Yeah I don't know, just make it look purdy. Grain, flame, burl and curl, its all the same to me.

The closest I've come to a natural finish is a light amber stain, sealed with shellac, then lacquered. So not sure if lacquer can bring out the wood like mineral spirits do. Guess I'll just give it a whirl in the curl and see.

[Mandoborg]

Watco Danish Oil in Natural is what I've always used. Wipe it on, wipe it back off, let it sit for a week and you can seal and laquer right over it. I don't do it with varnish as I find oil varnish gives a nice glow as well as enhancing the figure all by itself. Laquer tends to be too ' cold' so a coat of Danish Oil seems to warm up the finish as well as setting the grain off . You just have to let it sit for at least a week. I usually wait until I can barely smell it. Of course try it on scrap first ! :O)

[multidon]

Hmm. Watco Danish Oil is technically a wiping varnish. Like many similar wiping varnishes, it is a blend of oils, resins, and solvent.

According to their MSDS, it contains "drying and semi-drying oils", rosin, and mineral spirits. I would worry about using it as a first coat with lacquer over top, as that violates the "fat over lean" rule. Seems like there would be trouble getting things to stick to the oils. Mandoborg says he uses sealer over top of it first, if the sealer sticks that would make it work. Shellac would probably be a good sealer in that application. But I don't think Danish Oil would be my first choice. I would just use a couple coats of good old shellac and anything you like to use over that. The shellac adds a very slight ambering effect.

[Mandoborg]

I thought the same thing Don when Dan Erlewine mentioned using it. I heard the word 'oil' and was skeptical. That was in 1984 and I've never had a problem with it. The key is to let it dry, have patience. I've let it dry sometimes for a month. Then use either shellac or Behlens vinyl sealer .

Jim

https://www.facebook.com/jimmy.combra

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3DUGTTuoRPs

[fscotte]

Nothing beats shellac. I may try that Danish Oil as a first coat.

[Mark Gunter]

Lacquer over oil - done since lacquer was invented, nothing unusual here. Oil-based stains are used under lacquer all the time, and lacquer over Danish Oil need not be problematic. Make sure that the oil cures properly and completely, and scuff sand to prep. Use the oil as you would a stain - i.e. do not attempt to build-up a film of finish with the oil, and you will not run into a problem with "fat over lean".

Lacquer without sealer - never a problem. Lacquer sanding sealer is simply lacquer itself, usually a heavier bodied lacquer, with stearates added for easier sanding. The stearates are added to aid in sanding, and this became an important part of the finishing for large industrial production systems to save time and lengthen the life of sandpaper. Not necessary. The general rule of thumb is that any finish can serve as its own sealer. While that is not always the most desirable approach, it can work.

Amber lacquer - Lacquer need not be "water white" lacquer. Lacquers were developed and refined to make "water white" choices available, but clear lacquer has a nice amber tone unless you are purchasing a "water white" variety.

You have a lot of choices you can make in finishing, the best advice is to test any conceived finishing schedule on scrap so you can judge the probable results before you finish your project.

[Mark Gunter]

Addendum to say that sealers, specifically "barrier coat" type sealers, are not usually necessary when applying your finish (example, lacquer) to bare wood. Barrier coats are useful to prevent bleed through issues or coating films with other films that may not be compatible. In those cases, barrier coats can be very useful. My prior post re: sealers were aimed at sanding sealers rather than barrier coats.

[Andy Miller]

You can also emphasize that figure using dye. Like this.

[bernabe]

Id say lacquer and MS will have the same effect. If you wet with a colorless substance or give a "wet" look after dry like in lacquer, the figure will stand out more than when bare wood. Penetrating oils , etc. may be a different story and aren't usually completely colorless which will soak more into thre semi end grain of the curl.

[Marty Jacobson]

Straight lacquer. No sealer, no nothing. Popped enough for you?

[fscotte]

Yes please. Did you sand to 220 or lower Marty?

[multidon]

Marty- drop dead gorgeous! What is the dark side / neck wood on that?

I used to have a Breedlove FO that had, in my opinion, outrageous flame maple nicely bookmatched on the back. AAA at least. But that dull satin clear natural finish they use, polyurethane if memory serves, did absolutely nothing to bring it out. In short, it was there, but it did not pop. Shame, really.

Apparently, it has something to do with a glossy finish. Some kind of optical effect. True maple flame displays chatoyance. Maybe the glassy finish accentuates that property?

[Mark Gunter]

A gloss finish will aid in allowing light to shine deep into the pores of the wood and accentuate curvatures and anomalies. Satins, semi-glosses, flats and dead flats are the same finishes as gloss, with flattening agents added. You can think of it as purposely contaminating the lacquer in order to block or interfere with light penetration and reflection, therefore a reduced sheen and yes, lower visibility of curvatures and anomalies.

By the way, the stearates in sanding sealer have a similar effect!

[billhay4]

The video is the way. You get the wood to absorb a dye differently to intensify the figure. There are other ways to do this that have been traditionally been used on maple and similar woods. Ammonia fuming is one and a very good one, but it's not much fun to do. Dying and sanding is the easiest way.
Then proceed with one of the methods mentioned above.
Bill

[Jeff Mando]

You build a pretty mandolin, Marty!

[Marty Jacobson]

Marty- drop dead gorgeous! What is the dark side / neck wood on that?

It's wenge, always looks nice under finish. Chocolate and peanut butter.

Wes, I sand to at least 320 grit everywhere on a blonde instrument, 600 grit in some areas like the neck volute and other delicate areas.

Here's an instrument in which I used the "dye in the grain, then sand back" approach. It does work, but I'd mostly use that if I want a "honey" look rather than a "natural blonde" look.

[tree]

HONEY, where's my super suit?

Marty sure builds nice mandolins, and takes time to make incredibly informative posts here . . . love this place.

[Bill Snyder]

This one has straight, blonde shellac on it. Sheen is better than this photo suggests.