The "Big Three" in comparison

[vic-victor]

I finally got to making a quick recording of the same tune on my 3 mandolins. The first is 1916 Embergher Ochestra 1 in maple, the 2nd is 1934 Fratelli Vinaccia in rosewood and the 3rd is the early Fratelli Calace (Napoli-Catania), rosewood. All 3 are very nice instruments, each in it's own right. All 3 have been restored by Dave Hynds. Blue chip jazz pick used.

[Hany Hayek]

Thanks for sharing. Definitely the big 3.
I liked the 3 mandolins but I have to say, to me, the Calace has a very sweet sound.
What are you playing. Is there a score sheet.

[DavidKOS]

All nice, but the last one has a sweet big voice.

[vic-victor]

I was playing a pre-war tune called "Fur Dich Rio Rita" by ear, so there's no score for this particular rendition

It is hard to catch the true sound of instruments using built in camera mic, as it doesn't pick the whole sound range. My own impressions about these particular instruments. (It is best not to assume that other instruments of the same makes will have similar properties though):

Embergher has a crispy and somewhat nasal sound, compared to flamenco in guitar terms. Not a deep, but balanced and pleasant bass. It is a very bright mandolin. Very Italian sound so to say. It sings when not forced too hard. The sustain is good in general, but the lowest of the three. I guess it has partly to do with the original bridge being all wood vice bone/wood in other instruments and also having maple body and different body shape.

Vinaccia is a very impressive instrument. However simple model it has a true concert voice capable of filling a large hall. I was playing it lightly on the video, as otherwise, the camera mic is overloading and distorting sound. It has a deep bass, bright trebles and is very loud. It has the best sustain I've ever seen in bowlbacks, 4th open course hit lingers for nearly 17 seconds. If playing on stage this instrument would win hands down. Bell-like sound with the best bass I've seen in bowlbacks.

Calace has a typical Calace sound, a bit barrel-like. Very sweet and rounded. Bright trebles, mellow bass. It has the thinner top, compared to other two. It is loud and sustain is very good, but not as big as Vinaccia's. It sounds the best on the video I guess because of the best mid-ranges it produces. The trebles are not as crispy as Embergher's and not as clear as Vinaccia's. But a very pleasant instrument, indeed. Good all rounder. It will make any tune sounds good.

All three are excellent instruments in their own right, but each with it's different personality.

[crisscross]

Judging from the poor sound of my laptop speakers, me too, I seem to prefer the Calace.
But the other two also have a nice sound!

[Bruce Clausen]

Many thanks for that, Victor. I too found the Calace the most interesting. But all good, as you say. I like your comparison to the flamenco guitar; it's the impression I get from a sixties hand-made Japanese mandolin I have.

That Vinaccia has the weirdest arrangement of fingerboard dots I've ever seen. Is there a story there?

[Jim Garber]

I, too, am curious why the Vinaccia has dot at fret 7 then another on fret 8. Makes very little sense, but I would imagine that it is very unlikely that it was done at the Vinaccia shop.

What kinds of strings are on these mandolins?

Also, the fact that to are rosewood and one (Embergher) is maple-bowled is not ideal for comparison. I suppose all this does is compare these three specific mandolins. I would guess tho, in general, that Emberghers, for the most part, have a more uniform tone throughout the years, tho some of the most amazing ones I have played have been in the Cerrone era, but you may call those Cerrone mandolins made in the Embergher shop. The really early ones probably had the masters workmanship. My style 3 is a rosewood one from 1904 and the tone is quite beautiful but does still have that Embergher tone, much diffferent from the two other Neapolitan makers. Then again, the construction is more radically different for the Roman style mandolins.

[vic-victor]

The freboard is the replacement. It wasn't the concert length originally and I guess the dot was accidentally put at the wrong spot and then another was put in the correct position. Or, perhaps there was a wood defect that got masked by an extra dot

All mandolins have GHS ultra lights strings.

[vic-victor]

Jim, you are right Re: Emberghers. I guess previous video doesn't do Embergher much justice. They are very nice mandolins. Here is another video of my Embergher:



And another one of Fratelli Calace:



And Vinaccia:

[plinkey]

Thank you for sharing that tonal comparison. As you say, the nature of sound recording equipment can alter the music we hear, however, based on your videos I'd also give a clear cut preference to the Calace. Incidentally, that is a charming little piece you are playing.
(I could be mistaken, but it looks like the same person did FB replacements on all three of your mandolins ? If so, would you happen to have photos of the original FBs ? I am particularly interested in the original Calace FB.)

[vic-victor]

Thanks, Plinkey. Embergher has an original FB (the extention has been repaired), two others were replaced by David Hynds. Part of the original Calace's fretboard was missing.

Fratelli Calace being restored: https://www.facebook.com/mandolinhos...39592512748901

[derbex]

Just goes to show the dangers of Youtube videos, in the first video I liked the Calace best in the individual videos I liked the Vinaccia best and the Calace least.

Have you tried other strings Victor? I switched from GHS to Dogal on my Ceccerhini and thought I had a new mandolin, mind you it was old GHS vs new Dogal. The Dogals still sound good now, a few months later.

[Hany Hayek]

Just goes to show the dangers of Youtube videos, in the first video I liked the Calace best in the individual videos I liked the Vinaccia best and the Calace least.

Have you tried other strings Victor? I switched from GHS to Dogal on my Ceccerhini and thought I had a new mandolin, mind you it was old GHS vs new Dogal. The Dogals still sound good now, a few months later.

I totally agree. In theses videos the Vinaccia is the best.
Victor your playing and choice of music is beautiful.
I have listened to lots of Hynds videos and he uses GHS on all his mandolins. They don't sound so great on any mandolin.
Try other strings.
I tried Mastro from Greece (Matsikas) fantastic strings, I have tried the Martin M400 warm sound and lastly tried Galli Light gauge Italian strings and they sound pretty good. All these are available in Europe. I have to admit they are cheap for these mandolins but so are the GHS

[Martin Jonas]

Nice clips, Victor -- very difficult to pick out a favourite!

Recording bowlbacks is very difficult in the first place, and perception is in addition massively influenced by the quality of the speakers -- I find that my own recordings sounds very different indeed on (decent) computer speakers compared to headphones compared to a good Hifi system. Not necessarily in the sense that every mandolin sounds better with better speakers: sometimes that highlights the flaws in the instrument, recording or playing.

Emberghers have a very characteristic tone that comes through in all recordings, but is sometimes perceived as a positive and sometimes as a negative: the nasal strident quality can come across as shrill and unmusical or as complex and intriguing depending on context, playing style and accompaniment. I go through phases of loving my Embergher and despairing of it, but I realise that this is mainly in my head as the instrument's tone is objectively pretty constant even when I tinker with strings, setup or picks.

Vinaccias are richer, and softer in tone -- I always feel like mine has a tone quality reminiscent of gut strings, despite having the same steel strings as all the others.

I've never owned a Calace, but I've had a few on loan over the years. Tone-wise, they reminded me of my Ceccherini more than of my Vinaccia, but they all share a Neapolitan character quite different from the Roman Embergher. None of the ones I've played quite convinced me, which is probably why I've never bought one.

Back in 2010, I did my own comparison recordings of the "Big Three": my Embergher and Vinaccia along with a borrowed Calace. All three were the respective maker's low-grade models and all three had maple bowls, but the tone comparison was compromised by the fact that the Calace was strung with Thomastiks which didn't suit it. Also, my recording setup and playing ability back then weren't as good as in my newer recordings (I'm playing the example tune too slow!).

Here is the link to my old thread (with recordings and photos):

"Big Three" comparison

Martin

[vic-victor]

Thanks for all your input. In fact I think that any bowlback can be made to sound quite good with the proper set up, strings, pick and playing technique and the same mandolin can sound pretty dull if all those variables set incorrectly.

I am happy with all 3 now, it took me a while to tweak the things backwards and forwards for them to sound and feel the way they are now.

Thanks for the advice to try Dogal strings, will do. And probably Lenzner or Fissoma on Embergher. I guess I should also make a new bridge with bone insert for it to release it's full potential.

Interesting that all 3 mandolins were not in a very good condition (so to say) originally and went through invasive restorations yet remained their tonal qualities and sound very well, just what is expected of the each of the Big Three family instruments.

It has been great fun switching from one instrument to another and noticing the differences.

[Jim Garber]

Have you tried other strings Victor? I switched from GHS to Dogal on my Ceccerhini and thought I had a new mandolin, mind you it was old GHS vs new Dogal. The Dogals still sound good now, a few months later.

I use Dogal Calace strings on all my bowlbacks. They even sound fantastic on my Vega. I sometimes use the GHS to start but much prefer the sound of the Dogals.

[Bill Clements]

Terrific thread, and a stellar example why the Cafe is so outstanding.
I found myself favoring the Calace initially, but in your individual comparisons was drawn to the Embergher. The latter has such a distinctly complex sound.
Nice playing, Vic!