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Thread: Bluegrass: The new Americana!

  1. #151

    Default Re: Bluegrass: The new Americana!

    OK, a little different take here... I guess Americana would cover it, but my wife and I have been trying to find some kind of genre classification that makes sense for our music. Although we've been using bluegrass instruments (Mandolin, guitar, banjo, bass -- I think that's bluegrass -- but also celtic bouzouki and everything is anchored by the big powwow drum) on our last few CD's, we've never called it bluegrass. Oh, and we sing all original music in Cherokee. So it's not exactly folk (though we've been nominated for national awards in that category), or country, and it really isn't bluegrass, but based on what DataNick said, maybe we should start using that label too. It just doesn't seem completely authentic to me, though...

    Now we don't do festivals, and aside from playing a few powwows, we're strictly a recording band, so the only reason this matters is for entering competitions like the NAMMYs and the Indian Summer Music awards (neither one of which have bluegrass as a category, but I guess that's another story...). It's just tough to get new music heard if you don't fit into some existing category, y'know? Not complaining, we're having a blast, but that's the conundrum.

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  3. #152
    Loarcutus of MandoBorg DataNick's Avatar
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    Default Re: Bluegrass: The new Americana!

    RevSpyder: Interesting conundrum...shoot us a link where we can check out your stuff, I'd love to hear it; and btw: call it whatever you wish as you'll never please everybody...LOL!

    Thanks for contributing!
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    Default Re: Bluegrass: The new Americana!

    I don't know. In the end, we'll all call it whatever we like, and perhaps that's one of the great things about it. It can continue to grow, deepen, sound great, and be its own enigma. Let's just do our best and have a lot of fun playing.

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  6. #154
    Registered User Ivan Kelsall's Avatar
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    Default Re: Bluegrass: The new Americana!

    From Dang - " I have repeatedly found that if you cover one bluegrass song, even if the rest of your set isn't bluegrass, you are called a bluegrass band.". Well,as i said in a previous post in this thread ''if your line up is all Bluegrass instrumentation & the instruments are played in a Bluegrass 'style',then regardless of the songs that you sing & how you sing them,you have the right to be considered a Bluegrass band''. Note - i didn't say a TRAD. Bluegrass band. For Sam Bush / Bela Fleck's old band,the term NEWgrass was conjoured up - i'm ok with that & any other name you want to come up with for a Bluegrass ''associated'' music form.

    All music forms have evolved over the years,even Classical music. Classical music was doing just fine under composers such as Haydn & Mozart,then alongs comes a young upstart by the name of Ludwig van Beethoven who decides that things need shaking up a bit. The audiences & critics at several of his first concerts were horrified at the ''differences'',but eventually,he did ok !.

    It doesn't matter one bit what any of us say / think - other musicians have their own ideas & they'll put them into practice. Some of them will be widely accepted,some won't be - it's up to us to make our choice & leave others to make theirs - as it should be. I mean,is the recording ''Beatle Country'' by 'The Charles River Valley Boys' ( Joe Val & his gang) considered Bluegrass, because there's not one Bluegrass song of any genre.on it ?. For me it is & any other such recordings also.

    Punch Brothers also have the right to be considered a Bluegrass band - i think that they are,i also think that they went off the rails a while back - not really !. They use their Bluegrass line up to perform their own style of 'acoustic music',unfortunately, it doesn't appeal to me (hence the ''off the rails bit''),but lots of others like it,so IMHO,it must be a good thing,it's certainly not hurting anybody.

    Personally,i hope that new young bands like this keep on coming,i also hope that the TRAD. guys will keep on comng up with their own ''new Trad.'' style songs & tunes = something for everybody (i hope),
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  7. #155
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    Default Re: Bluegrass: The new Americana!

    Not to beat a dead horse but I still say BG is not the instrument ( although I think the sustain of electric is impossible for BG) it's not the lyrics, it's not the hats, it's defined by the music. The original Country Gentlemen were called progressive because of their looks and their choice of material, some didn't even talk about the cabin in the mountains, but their drive,and their harmony were pure BG in my opinion.

    Oh yeah Duffy didn't play Monroe style and Adcock sure didn't play Scruggs but they both played real, bluegrass.
    Last edited by Mandoplumb; Jul-21-2016 at 4:03am. Reason: Additional thought

  8. #156

    Default Re: Bluegrass: The new Americana!

    Here you go: http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/clearwaterdrum3. Song #4, Love Is Powerful features mando, and was nominated for Best Folk Song at the 2015 Indian Summer Music Awards. Please bear in mind I'm no mandolin player, I'm a guitar player who loves the mandolin sound, so...

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  10. #157
    Registered User jmkatcher's Avatar
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    Default Re: Bluegrass: The new Americana!

    I like it - that song is sort of REMy too. Thanks!

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  12. #158
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    Default Re: Bluegrass: The new Americana!

    Quote Originally Posted by DataNick View Post
    ...the song that they begged us to play (did it 3 times) that the drunk girls dancing about in front of us wanted to hear, that brought the house down, and was certainly their conception of "bluegrass"...you guessed it: Wagon Wheel
    I often find myself in jams with kids half my age. They love Wagon Wheel and play it often. I used to roll my eyes, but I've learned to love it. Not because I like the song, but because I love the joy it gives them and being invited to share in it. And if they want to think of it as "bluegrass," that doesn't affect their enjoyment of it, or my enjoyment of them, one bit.

    The last thing they need is some old fart complaining, "That ain't bluegrass." A more productive approach might be, "Nice job! Is it around to me now? Here's an old one called Footprints in the Snow."
    "Few noises are so disagreeable as the sound of the picking of a mandolin."

  13. #159
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    Default Re: Bluegrass: The new Americana!

    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Smart View Post
    I often find myself in jams with kids half my age. They love Wagon Wheel and play it often. I used to roll my eyes, but I've learned to love it. Not because I like the song, but because I love the joy it gives them and being invited to share in it. And if they want to think of it as "bluegrass," that doesn't affect their enjoyment of it, or my enjoyment of them, one bit.

    The last thing they need is some old fart complaining, "That ain't bluegrass." A more productive approach might be, "Nice job! Is it around to me now? Here's an old one called Footprints in the Snow."
    Well Tom, $$ talks and if the joint is payin, we'll play just about anything...we ended a gig at a retirement home recently with me going solo on guitar singing/playing "Witchita Lineman" because we got a heartfelt request for it...I'll roll with just about anything...
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    Registered User Ivan Kelsall's Avatar
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    Default Re: Bluegrass: The new Americana!

    From Mandoplumb - "...but I still say BG is not the instrument...". Would any other instrument line up create the same 'sound' as a banjo / mandolin / guitar / fiddle & bass ?. No. The line up of Bill Monroe's 'original' Bluegrass boys which had Earl & Lester in it,came to define the 'sound' of Bluegrass as we all know it today. What Bill's line up had been before - who cared ?. Not the audiences,that's for sure. Bill's band at that time was the 'defining article', & for the majority of Bluegrass fans,it still is. You can take almost any song from any other genre & perform it in a 'Bluegrass style' (as per Beatle Country) & it'll be accepted ,not as a Trad. Bluegrass song,but a Bluegrass 'adaptation' - ''Fox On The Run'' is another well known song done in such a way.
    Mandoplumb mentions the Country Gentlemen & their style. The fact that many of their songs were from outside the 'true' Bluegrass genre,but were performed with the full Bluegrass instrumentation line up ( + Dobro),really illustrates my point above.
    I understand Mandoplumb's point absolutely,but don't agree that the instrumental line up isn't a neccessity. It needs the songs / tunes & performing style + the instuments = Bluegrass music.

    I met & talked with Eddie Addcock at the IBMA Festival in Owensboro,in 1992 & asked him about his playing. As with most players,he started out as a Scruggs style player but quickly found his own 'recipe' (as did Don Reno & others),
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  16. #161
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    Default Re: Bluegrass: The new Americana!

    Ivan Kelsall you even mentioned the dobro which was introduced by Flatt and Scruggs to BG, not original to the Bluegrass Boys. So who knows if another instrument could fit in and still keep the true " sound" of BG. A lot of bluegrass groups now use an electric base and still maintain the BG sound in their rhythm, drive, harmony etc. I still hear that artificial depth, that that too long sustain and miss a real base but I would say that they are playing BG if everything else is right, so I say that the list of instrument is not the sole defining measure of BG.

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  18. #162
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    Default Re: Bluegrass: The new Americana!

    Ah, the electric bass in bluegrass. That's the one area which can make it or break it, for many. I actually don't know any bands which use one now. If anything, it's that acoustic/elec thing I see sometimes, the bass player wears it like a guitar. A pure electric bass in bluegrass was more common some years ago.

    DL&QS first record on Sugar Hill had Lou Reid Pyrtle on electric bass. Too bad, as there are some great songs and playing on that, but the bass makes it unlistenable (for me).

    IIIrd Tyme Out wisely had Ray learn and switch to stand-up.

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    Default Re: Bluegrass: The new Americana!

    Quote Originally Posted by AlanN View Post
    Too bad, as there are some great songs and playing on that, but the bass makes it unlistenable (for me). .
    I agree. No matter how good the pickers are, elect bass is all I hear. The E-bass standups sound ok but dampen stage mojo for me.

  21. #164
    Registered User jdchapman's Avatar
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    Default Re: Bluegrass: The new Americana!

    All genre terms are reductive, mutable and usually misapplied from the outset. But this is mostly annoying when it leads to miscommunication: I say I like jazz and mean Sun Ra, and the person I'm talking to thinks I mean something "smooth." That said, since Bluegrass had a pretty specific origin that distinguished it from other Appalachian stringboard music, this particular change is remarkable to me as well. Might be because "Americana" is such a terrible catch-all.

    Here's my example of "bluegrass" broadening; at least that's what the guy who made the video calls it:

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  23. #165
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    Default Re: Bluegrass: The new Americana!

    Several electric bass players in Bluegrass around here. Blue Mule most prominently. Hauling that doghouse around is a pain.

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  25. #166
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    Default Re: Bluegrass: The new Americana!

    A good electric bass player can make the instrument sound almost like an upright bass, but you do have to dampen the sustain. I learned that playing bass in salsa bands where the END of the bass note was almost as important as the beginning.

    And let's be blunt, the technical level of many Bluegrass string bassists is often pretty rudimentary - I don't see a lot of Simandl bass fingerings in BG band bass playing. A GOOD electric player can cover it but they have to really pay attention to details.

    Unless you are bowing the bass, the electric is a fine substitute for the string bass.

    How do I know?

    I have played both since 1971.

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  27. #167
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    Default Re: Bluegrass: The new Americana!

    Quote Originally Posted by jdchapman View Post
    ...Here's my example of "bluegrass" broadening; at least that's what the guy who made the video calls it:
    This is a great example of the original posted question, "why are so many non-BG acts, festivals, etc. being called BG?" That is a nice folkie version of a pop tune. There is nothing at all bluegrass about it, yet its been labeled "bluegrass broadening." I think there are some people who have and perceive a more positive connotation with "bluegrass" than with "folk" (which is another so-broad-as-to-be-nearly-meaningless musical genre classification). "No I'm not folk, I'm bluegrass...."

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  29. #168
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    Default Re: Bluegrass: The new Americana!

    Some more thoughts....Many "traditional" bluegrass bands have changed to a more progressive style because that is what the younger public wants to hear and I for one cannot fault them for doing it if they are making a living playing music, I would just like to see some word installed in front of "Bluegrass" to let people know what is actually being played, traditional or progressive....My band played a gig yesterday out doors at American University and the vendors there were showcasing farming and garden equipment and giving talks on how this equipment help with the "Green" theme that we hear a lot about, any way about 100 people came by the stage area and told me that when they read that there would be bluegrass entertainment they were not expecting to hear it played like the traditional sound because WAMU itself has gotten away from the original sound, these people were very generous with their tips also I might add and thanked us for trying to keep bluegrass alive and well by playing it like it was performed originally....Now we did do a few newer tunes but they were nor received as well as the older tunes, no we didn`t do Wagon Wheel although my bass played does sing it on some of our shows depending on the audience age group...

    "JUST CALL IT MUSIC' and let it fall where it may...

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  31. #169
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    Default Re: Bluegrass: The new Americana!

    Quote Originally Posted by RevSpyder View Post
    OK, a little different take here... I guess Americana would cover it, but my wife and I have been trying to find some kind of genre classification that makes sense for our music. Although we've been using bluegrass instruments (Mandolin, guitar, banjo, bass -- I think that's bluegrass -- but also celtic bouzouki and everything is anchored by the big powwow drum) on our last few CD's, we've never called it bluegrass. Oh, and we sing all original music in Cherokee. So it's not exactly folk (though we've been nominated for national awards in that category), or country, and it really isn't bluegrass, but based on what DataNick said, maybe we should start using that label too. It just doesn't seem completely authentic to me, though...music heard if you don't fit into some existing category, y'know? Not complaining, we're having a blast, but that's the conundrum.
    I think "world music" (yet another so-broad-as-to-be-nearly-meaningless genre classification) is the label you're looking for.

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  33. #170
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    Default Re: Bluegrass: The new Americana!

    Electric bases have come a long way but they ain't there yet. I'd rather hear a rudimentary player on a real bass than a great on an electric. What is great is to hear a Geroge Shuffler on a real base.

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  35. #171
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    Default Re: Bluegrass: The new Americana!

    From Mandoplumb - "Ivan Kelsall you even mentioned the dobro...". Where in post # 160 did i mention the dobro ?. I know that it wasn't part of the 'original' Bluegrass band & that Lester & Earl introduced it. I have to admit to not being a great fan of the dobro,i OD'd on Jerry Douglas years back,although some players such as Rob Ickes do appeal.

    From above - "What is great is to hear a George Shuffler on a real bass".. That's exactly what i heard when i went to see the Stanley Brothers at the Royal Albert Hall in London in 1966. GS was playing guitar,but for a couple of songs,he & the bass player swapped instruments & oh boy,could he ever slap that bass !!!

    As for bass guitars - i personally don't care for them in Bluegrass music - but then I don't have to cater for hauling a double bass fiddle around. Also,an 'over-mic'd' double bass can get a tad thumpy as well,& i've heard more than a few of those,
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    Default Re: Bluegrass: The new Americana!

    Ivan Kelsall you mentioned the Gentleman with trad. Instrument plus Dobro. That is my point the Gentlemen since we're talking about them introduced songs from many styles that have become BG standards. There is not many people today that wouldn't consider Fox on the Run trad. BG. They also expperimented with a few addition instrument but they still sounded like trad. BG in their timing, drive, harmony, ect. Something a lot if these new bands don't . Also on another comment you made, I once had a bass player tell me he would rather play an up right bass except for having to haul it. He told me this as he unloaded an amp half the size of my pick-up.

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    Default Re: Bluegrass: The new Americana!

    Been incommunicado for the last week or so but, a skim of what I've missed also has become joining the "electric bass divergence" I have heard some very fine electric bass players play fine "real" BG indeed. But, one of my favorites was Art Wydner back with Sparks and what I think of as his "goat pee to gasoline" band!
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  40. #174
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    Default Re: Bluegrass: The new Americana!

    Hi mandoplumb - I did indeed mention the dobro - apologies !. . I said '' + dobro'' because i don't consider it a 'Trad' instrument - neither did Bill Monroe. Back in the mid 1960's my band acquired an upright bass player by the name of John Henderson. John was a Jazz bass player & very well known in Jazz circles as a great musician. We were knocked out when he agreed to join us. The large car he had for ferrying his bass around served as our ''tour bus '' for close to 2 years - he did get extra cash + gas money for his services. It's a similar thing to what they say about a ticking clock,''you don't hear it until it stops !''. It was the same with John & his bass fiddle. We'd played as a trio,banjo,mandolin & guitar for close to a year & we sounded ok,but add John's bass & the sound filled out enormously,take it away & the sound collapsed.

    The 'song' 'Fox On The Run' isn't a Trad Bluegrass song,but it was performed in a 'Trad.' Bluegrass style, & , as you pointed out,so were other songs. My all time favourite Rock'n Roll singer is Buddy Holly,& several of his songs lend themselves to being performed in a Bluegrass 'style',but that doesn't make the songs 'proper' Bluegrass songs. Me & my band used to play several of BH's songs & they fit great,but if they were performed that way for a 1000 years,i'd never consider them Bluegrass standards. They are (were) what they were,pop songs performed in another style,
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    Default Re: Bluegrass: The new Americana!

    Ivan I don't mean to offend but I bet you are one of the very few people who would not consider Fox on the Run a blue grass standard, I dare say that the majority of people that have heard it heard it bluegrass style. If the song is done with the beat and drive and simplicity of bluegrass in my opinion it is bluegrass even if it don't talk about the cabin in the mountains. Don't get me wrong I love the old original BG songs but I don't think it has to be written 60+ years ago to be a BG song

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