Bowlback mandola experiences and recommendations.

[derbex]

I am thinking of getting a GDAE tuned bowlback mandola and would like to hear from other players and am also interested in recommended makers, shops &c. I am in the UK.

As context I already have a 20" flatback Buchanan OM with a dark tone, but I occasionally play with a mandolin orchestra, and also often play parts with a few friends where I will generally play the mandola. I find some of the stretches, especially the double stops are a bit challenging and I think they might be easier on a shorter scaled instrument, bowlback mandolas seem to run between 420mm and 430mm -around 17".

Aside from the mechanics I like the tone of my bowlback mandolins against that of my flatback, they just seem more resonant and 'alive' and I am hoping that this would carry over to a mandola.

[Jim Garber]

I have a Calace mandola built (I believe) in 1974. It is pretty nice and has a 17" scale. I actually have it tuned to CGDA at the moment but I think I have a set of Dogal Calace GDAE mandola strings. Calace says in their catalogs that it can be played with either tuning.

The last time I played it was in a workshop taught my Carlo Aonzo and I played it as part of the mandola section in one of the Brandenburg Concertos.

You might have a better chance on your side of the Atlantic but i still thing bowlback mandolas are not all that common.

[Martin Jonas]

I had the opportunity recently to try out (and possibly buy) a Musikalia bowlback mandola. I set it up with decent strings for GDAE tuning -- it appeared to be built for that tuning and the notes rang out clear and loud enough on all strings. Didn't much like the tone, though, and passed on it. I was hoping to use it instead of my 22" OM for mandola parts, in particular where dexterity is required, but it just wasn't as much fun as I had hoped it would be. I suspect that's more a problem with Musikalia than with bowlback mandolas as such.

Martin

[brunello97]

Martin and Jim, the short(er) scale GDAE options sounds very interesting. I have a few bowldolas (in varying degrees of playability.) I had assumed the GDAE was limiting me to octave mandolin scale lengths, so I've gone with CGDA. This is something worthwhile to look into.

Jim you said Calace EuroMandola strings, right? Martin, what strings, gauges were you using?

Thanks!

Mick

[DavidKOS]

I had the opportunity recently to try out (and possibly buy) a Musikalia bowlback mandola...... Didn't much like the tone, though,..... I suspect that's more a problem with Musikalia than with bowlback mandolas as such.

Martin

Was the tone a bit thin and bright, not well balanced?

[crisscross]

You might have a better chance on your side of the Atlantic but i still thing bowlback mandolas are not all that common.

AFAIK the term mandola in German means an instrument tuned GDAE an octave below a mandolin.
Thomann has bowlback mandolas by Suzuki and by Matsikas. http://www.thomann.de/de/mandolas.html
Both have a scale length of about 430mm, but the suggested tuning for the Suzukis is G-D-A-E, whereas for the Matsikas it is C-G-D-A, so I guess it's up to the player to choose a tuning.
The string sets for mandola by Thomastik are G-D-A-E, by D'Addario C-G-D-A

As much as I like my Suzuki bowlback mandolins, I guess 800-900 Euro for a mandola would be a little too much for them, but maybe a used one for the third of the price...https://www.ebay-kleinanzeigen.de/s-...867729-74-1753

[derbex]

I did ask Thomann and Matsakis about stringing their mandolas GDAE, I only heard back from Thomann who pointed me at a set of strings but said you are on your own if anything goes wrong. I think there is a comment in French saying they ought to be strung GDAE, but Google Translate turned it into jiberish so I am not sure.

Well spotted crisscross

[Beanzy]

If threre's no other term defining it as CGDA then you're fairly safe assuming Bowlback mandolas are GDAE, as that was the original version. The term Tenor would normally be added over here to indicate the CGDA instrument or luthiers will put the tuning in brackets. Also seems to be the situation with folk instruments in the UK that if someone says mandola then it's assumed to be the GDAE (octave mandolin scale) however things get more muddy with carved top instruments as they tend to be influenced by the US terminology.

If you check out Alex T's videos of the Embergher Mandolin Quintet you'll see Ruth Rouw playing one. (Seriously mesmerising elegant fingers)

It would be good to hear more solos on the bowlbacked mandola, they've a lovely sonority but still a lightness to the tone.

[Martin Jonas]

Martin, what strings, gauges were you using?

Fisoma F3120 medium. The Schneider Musik site is slightly unclear on tuning, but the Lenzner Strings homepage spells out that these are for GDAE: Link. All four courses are bronze wound. I went for the mediums as the Musikalia was at the low end of the scale length range given for GDAE bowlback mandolas.

Fisoma also make a flatwound set for GDAE mandolas, which comes in two different scale lengths: 42-45cm (16.5"-17.5") or 46-50cm (18"-19.5"). For the bronzewounds, they don't say what the intended scale length is, but from the gauges it's 42-45cm.

Other European string makers have similar short-scale mandola GDAE sets: Optima, Pyramid, Romana. No Optima-Lenzner mandola strings, so the confusion between the two different Lenzner companies doesn't arise for mandola.

Martin

[Martin Jonas]

It would be good to hear more solos on the bowlbacked mandola, they've a lovely sonority but still a lightness to the tone.

Alison Stephens on solo Embergher mandola ("The Beast"), playing Victor's "Suite for Ali":



I don't know who has Ali's Embergher mandola now -- I played it many years ago at a BMG workshop at Burton Manor, and it's an utterly wonderful instrument. As there was no mandola player in the ad-hoc workshop ensemble, I volunteered and Ali gave me her mandola, so I got to play it for several hours.

Martin

[crisscross]

I think there is a comment in French saying they ought to be strung GDAE, but Google Translate turned it into jiberish so I am not sure.

This comment?

j'ai fini par comprendre que cet instrument doit être accordé sol ré la mi, (G D A E) comme un thomann violon ou une mandoline. Une mandole est en fait une mandoline ténor. Si on l'accorde do sol ré la, (C G D A) comme indiqué sur le site , les cordes sont trop tendues, à la limite de la rupture, et nécessitent une pression anormalement élevée des doigts thomann pour jouer.

It means something like, if you tune it CGDA the way it is suggested, the string tension is very high, it's hard to press down the strings and the strings are on the verge of breaking.

Concerning the strings:Pyramid, Optima, Romana, Thomastik and Fisoma all are GDAE. (At least the flatwound Fisomas)
GHS and D'Addario are the only ones in CGDA tuning.

[Jim Garber]

I believe that the erm used in Europe for the CGDA-tuned mandola is mandoliola.

I have a friend who wanted to get an Embergher for tuning that way. They are very difficult to find. I think that the shop made only a few since there was less demand than for the GDAE ones.

Jim you said Calace EuroMandola strings, right?

For GDAE tuning: Calace Mandola Strings

[Martin Jonas]

I believe that the erm used in Europe for the CGDA-tuned mandola is mandoliola.

I think "mandoliola" is a name that Embergher used, but that didn't really get wide traction amongst players. "Tenor mandola" is pretty widely used in the UK for the CGDA instrument, but is a bit of a misnomer as it's an alto instrument. Also, "tenor mandola" has also been used (arguably more correctly) for the GDAE instrument, e.g. on various Nakano scores which are in 8va treble clef and go below C. "Alto mandola" is also sometimes seen, and at least has the advantage of being unambiguous, but I don't think it's widely used. Italians seem to like "mandola in sol" for the GDAE mandola and "mandola in do" for the CGDA instrument, and that's also unambiguous.

It remains a mess.

Martin

[Jim Garber]

Italian seem to like "mandola in sol" for the GDAE mandola and "mandola in do" for the CGDA instrument, and that's also unambiguous.

That seems to be the most sensible: either mandola in sol/GDAE Mandola or mandola in do/CGDA mandola.

[derbex]

Nick Matsikas got back to me :

Our mandolas are tuned CGDA but if you want to order we can adjust for you.

Matsakis Mandolas.

That's quite tempting, I'll have to ponder. There is a De Meglio at £700 pounds, but that seems a bit steep in comparison. My plan, such as it is, would be to try a relatively cheap mandola and if I get on with it look to upgrade.

[August Watters]

If threre's no other term defining it as CGDA then you're fairly safe assuming Bowlback mandolas are GDAE, as that was the original version. . . .If you check out Alex T's videos of the Embergher Mandolin Quintet you'll see Ruth Rouw playing one. (Seriously mesmerising elegant fingers).

I got to trade instruments with Ruth for awhile during rehearsals a couple of years back -- Ruth's is an Embergher model made by Lorenzo Lippi. Wonderful instrument, warm, clear, well-defined and balanced. I've played a carved 21-inch OM for years as mandola, but feeling the need to move on to a shorter bowlback. Seeing Carlo Mazzaccara this weekend to pick up that 5-year-old mandola he's had on eBay now and then; will report back.

[crisscross]

Italians seem to like "mandola in sol" for the GDAE mandola and "mandola in do" for the CGDA instrument, and that's also unambiguous.

The French make a similar distinction:
-alto-mandola C-G-D-A
-tenor mandola G-D-A-E
https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mandole_t%C3%A9nor/alto

[Beanzy]

I got to trade instruments with Ruth for awhile during rehearsals a couple of years back -- Ruth's is an Embergher model made by Lorenzo Lippi. Wonderful instrument, warm, clear, well-defined and balanced. I've played a carved 21-inch OM for years as mandola, but feeling the need to move on to a shorter bowlback. Seeing Carlo Mazzaccara this weekend to pick up that 5-year-old mandola he's had on eBay now and then; will report back.

Loving the stories; Martin having a few hours on The Beast and you getting to play the Lippi.
I'll be looking forward to hearing what you reckon about the Mazzaccara.

[Margriet]

Mandolas, tuning and strings are still a mess with me.

I am usually not so satisfied by the sound of a GDAE mandola, there is missing something in balance, especially the low notes are often dull. I don' t know exactly why am not so fond of the sound of them. A few years ago I found a mandola with a scalelength of about 40.8 cm and happy to set it up as an alto-mandola, CGDA. I bought strings of Fisoma, especially ordered for alto. Also Galli has two different sets:, for GDAE and for CGDA mandolas.
It plays very naturally, light and it speaks, nice sound and in balance. It is like made for me. Happy sofar. But no occasion to play this mandola together with others. Yes, i could play in a plucked orchestra in Italy, where my mates play a GDAE mandola. Then i tried to tune it in GDAE. No success, I got Galli strings for GDAE mandola and put them on and it is not satisfying.
So i am very eager to hear which strings others put on a mandola with a short scalelength, tuned in GDAE. Maybe i need to take some heavy or medium mandola strings. If i would listen to the instrument only, i would love to have it in CGDA. But I am a violaplayer and maybe by that i love that range. It is only for playing with mates in an orchestra that i would choose for GDAE.

Romans, like Embergher and a Gallesi that we own ( but not yet set up), have a much longer scalelength, if i remember well 46cm. Once, in a combined big orchestra with Alex Timmerman, I could play one of his Embergher mandolas. Was indeed much bigger. I saw his Embergher mandoliola, which is much much smaller than the usual CGDA- mandolins.

So, i am really interested to hear which solutions you found for strings and will follow this thread.

Margriet

[Rob MacKillop]

46cms, eh? That got me looking at the new mandolas on Thomann:

Suzuki MD8 - 43 cm
Suzuki MD4 - 43 cm
Suzuki MD10 - 42 cm (the most expensive model)
Gewa Italian Mandola - 44 cm

The two Matsikas models are 42.7 cm, but tuned to CGDA.

So, the Gewa is the longest.

How does Ruth tune hers? I imagine it is 46cms?

[Rob MacKillop]

A slight aside...I once recorded an album of the first three Bach cello suites on three different banjos. The first suite was on the tenor banjo, normally tuned CGDA. I felt the sound was too tight, and the alternative string sets, tuned GDAE, were too muddy. So in the end, I detuned the CGDA set by a tone, and it all sounded MUCH better.

Just a thought...why wouldn't that be possible on a mandola? You would have to learn to read in the new tuning, or have your part transposed up a tone, then pretend you are still in CGDA tuning. Or, after tuning down a tone, just put a capo on the second fret. It could work.

[Margriet]

Just a thought...why wouldn't that be possible on a mandola? You would have to learn to read in the new tuning, or have your part transposed up a tone, then pretend you are still in CGDA tuning. Or, after tuning down a tone, just put a capo on the second fret. It could work.

Such could work, playing solo, Rob.
In my situation, playing in orchestra, with other mandolaplayers in GDAE, it did not work. I tuned it differently, tried to read 8 clef AS IF it would be a C-clef. Apart from the brains' effort of sight reading and cope with the alterations in some tonalities, it was often out of tune, due to the fact of fixed frets and to have the open strings differently from your mates. I was busy with these issues more than making music, that made me decide to tune GDAE and have other strings.
I would not recommend your suggestion in such situations.

Margriet

[Rob MacKillop]

That makes sense to me. I withdraw my suggestion

[derbex]

I am usually not so satisfied by the sound of a GDAE mandola, there is missing something in balance, especially the low notes are often dull.

That's interesting, my 50 c.m. flatback is especially good at the low end, it is the E string that I am dubious about, although I am coming to appreciate it.

I guess a lot could be in the choice of strings and plectra, I am using heavy phosphor bronze strings and a thick plectrum, I am happy with the plectrum but I think I might give nickel strings a try.

This uncertainty is partly why I don't want to pay much for a first bowlback mandola, maybe the scale won't do what I want, on the other hand a cheap instrument may not sound wonderful whereas a more expensive would.

[Margriet]

my 50 c.m. flatback is especially good at the low end

I can imagine! 50 cm is quite a long distance and strings will have much more space. The ones I was talking about were 40,8 - 43 cm and that makes a difference. The only exception was the Embergher with a scalelength of 46 - if i remember well - and that had a much better sound as well. So also my Gallesi, but it is not yet ready to play. The ones with the shorter scalelength sounded much better, stringed CGDA, but that can be a matter of taste. And, as you say: strings. Because of that i am interested.