A Relatively Poor Man's Embergher?

[Rob MacKillop]

After listening to a lot of mandolins these last few weeks, I'm currently thinking the Embergher style and sound is the one that speaks to me most. Unfortunately, as we know, originals and high-grade copies are frighteningly expensive.

So, with a budget of around 1500 Euros or UK Pounds, how could I get closest to that sound and those physical characteristics? Which mandolin comes closest, within my budget?

[mrmando]

There are contemporary Italian makers. Gabriele Pandini comes to mind:
http://www.gabrielepandini.it/eng-na...-mandolin.html

Don't know why he calls this Neapolitan; most of us would call it Roman. Obvious tribute to Embergher.

Carlo Mazzacara is another who builds bowlbacks in many different styles:
https://neapolitanmandolin.wordpress...lo-mazzaccara/

I'm not sure what either gent wants for a new instrument, but it doesn't hurt to ask.

[Martin Jonas]

Unlike the Neapolitan style, the Roman/Embergher style has not been copied very widely outside a few select (and similarly expensive) builders in Rome at the time and a few select (and quite expensive) builders making Embergher copies now. However, Embergher himself had a wide range of styles from the student models Tipo A/B, the orchestral models (Nos. 1 to 3) to the soloist models (Nos. 4 to 6). While the most desirable model is the No. 5bis, the student and lower orchestral models have all the essential Embergher style elements, share the unique tone colour of the higher models, and with a bit of patience come up within your budget from time to time. My own 1915 Tipo A student model Embergher was in near-perfect condition when I bought it ten years ago, and would have been within your budget. It doesn't have the volume of the concert models, but it's a genuine Embergher and plays like butter.

Martin

[Hany Hayek]

Emanuele Egildo an Italian Builder that moved and lived in France in the early 1900's made Roman style mandolins.
I have no financial interest here ( I live in Egypt . Here is one on e-bay (not in perfect conditions though)
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/1927-EMANU...item3f6202705d
and one in France:
https://www.leboncoin.fr/instruments.../972490044.htm
I own an Egildo 1923 but flat back, it does not sound like the Neapolitan mandolins I have

[Rob MacKillop]

Many thanks, gentlemen. You've given me something to think about, and links to follow up. Cheers.

[Martin Jonas]

There are contemporary Italian makers. Gabriele Pandini comes to mind:
http://www.gabrielepandini.it/eng-na...-mandolin.html

Don't know why he calls this Neapolitan; most of us would call it Roman. Obvious tribute to Embergher.

I have to disagree somewhat with the other Martin: that Pandini looks to me more like a Calace copy than an Embergher, i.e Neapolitan rather than Roman. It doesn't have the defining features of the Embergher construction:

- Triangular neck
- Narrow violin-style nut
- Radiussed and slanted fretboard
- Streamlined bowlshape with distinct recurve at the neck joint
- Slotted headstock

Edit: When I first looked at the Pandini site, I had Javascript disabled and it showed only one of his models, which was clearly Neapolitan. Looking again with Javascript enabled, I see the photos for the four other models, too, some of which are indeed Roman-inspired with at least some of the above features (although not all, as far as I can tell). Apologies.

Martin

[Rob MacKillop]

I'm interested in the cheap Egildo, which is in need of restoration. But are they any good?

Edit: I mean, are they Roman enough, to give me a sense of that kind of instrument, while I save money for a more expensive instrument? Or are they too different to bother with? Might I be as well sticking with the Giovanni de Meglio I have at the moment?

[Martin Jonas]

I think the seller of that Egildo is Ralf Leenen in Antwerp -- I suggest you try to speak to him. If it is Ralf, there are few people who know more about Emberghers than he. Also, he actually has two Egildos for sale, both at the same price (one from 1923 and one from 1927). The other is:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/272258276990

Both are fairly obviously intended as copies of the Embergher student model Tipo A but don't look to have the same fine workmanship. I haven't played any Egildos, so I don't know how they compare tonewise. Both look to need some luthier attention before they are playable.

Also note that he sold an actual Embergher Tipo B student model for little more than half your budget last month:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/1927-LUIGI...-/272226239144

Compare this one to the Egildo to see the difference in workmanship and detailling.

Martin

[Rob MacKillop]

Thanks, Martin. I've emailed Ralf. We were in touch years ago, so I hope his email address has not changed.

Too bad about the Type B went last month. That would have been ideal.

[brunello97]

I like direction this conversation is turning.

Mick

[crisscross]

There is a German builder Frank-Peter Dietrich who also builds Embergher-style mandolins.
Don't know about his prices though. But he also offers a simple version,(einfaches Modell) http://www.gitarre-laute.de/mandoline_19.html

[crisscross]

In German e-bay, there's an ad for an actual Embergher. A little bit above your limit...http://www.ebay.de/itm/Luigi-Embergh...oAAOSwl9BWGqKx

[Hany Hayek]

I made some more search and found this site. They have an Egildo and a couple of Embergers and they are in the UK:
http://www.soundantiques.com/plucked/plucked.html

[Rob MacKillop]

Thanks, crisscross. I met Marcus Dietrich some years ago, and know the quality of their work. I've emailed him for a price list and more information, though I strongly suspect the figures will be beyond my budget.

[Rob MacKillop]

I made some more search and found this site. They have an Egildo and a couple of Embergers and they are in the UK:
http://www.soundantiques.com/plucked/plucked.html

Thanks, Hany. I also came across them late last night, and sent an email. Cheers.

[Jim Garber]

There are contemporary Italian makers. Gabriele Pandini comes to mind:
http://www.gabrielepandini.it/eng-na...-mandolin.html

Don't know why he calls this Neapolitan; most of us would call it Roman. Obvious tribute to Embergher.

Aside from Martin Jonas' retraction, I still do not believe that Pandini mandolins are even close to Emberghers visually or in tone. If anything they are based on the Calace model but even larger and with rounded necks and flat fretboards. They have their own tone qualities. I owned one for many years. Mine would not fit in an Eastman case, that is how large the bowl is. Very nice mandolins but not a Roman/Embergher mandolin.

I would also agree with MJ that it might be good to look into student or orchestra level Emberghers. I play an exquisite style 3 and also have a student A and a style 1. I would, however, be careful about buying one sight unseen from Ebay or the like. There may be some hidden issues. They are delicate instruments. If you have your heart set on an Embergher you might consider buying from a reputable dealer who has restored and set it up properly.

I know at least one person who bought from Alfred Woll in Germany. His web site shows a No. 2 and and No. 3. I am sure that both are priced retail but I would also assume that you would not need to put any further expense into it to make it playable.

Of course, if you know Ralf he will guide you in the right direction. He helped me immeasurably when I found my 1904 No. 3.

BTW Rob: Have you actually played an Embergher? I highly suggest you do so before committing. They are very different from Neapolitan styles and it may take a bit of time to bet used to them.

Also, IMHO there are other Roman instruments but if you are going in that direction I would go for the best. A poor man's Roman might not live up to what you are looking for.

[Rob MacKillop]

Thanks, Jim. Lots to think about there. I haven't played an Embergher, which is why I thought it might be an idea to try the Egildo cheapo first, but I'm not sure if it has a curved fingerboard. I await Ralph's response.

There are moments in my present playing of Ranieri and some baroque composers, when I feel I could do with the strings being closer together at the nut, so I can play two courses on the same fret with one finger. That gives me the idea that I might enjoy the string spacing on an Embergher. And I find myself happier approaching the fretboard at an angle, like a violinist, rather than straight on like a classical guitarist's approach.

I also like the clarity I'm hearing from Embergher players. I've ordered Lenzner 3030 Consort strings for my de Meglio. The current set is Thomastik flat wound. They make a nice soft sound, which I like for some things, but generally I'll be looking for a more incisive sound.

Does all this sound like I should give the Embergher a chance?

Do all Embergher's have a curved fingerboard and narrow string spacing?

[margora]

"Thanks, Jim. Lots to think about there. I haven't played an Embergher, which is why I thought it might be an idea to try the Egildo cheapo first, but I'm not sure if it has a curved fingerboard."

I own an Egildo 1902. The bulk of the restoration was done by David Hynds (he still has photos up on his website if you want to see it) with some additional work by Max Girouard upon arrival in the US.

Egildo made a range of Roman instruments, from orchestral to soloist models (I believe one of his 5bis models is for sale in France at Sinier-de-Ridder, for 4,500 euros). I agree that the workmanship is not quite at the Embergher level but this is a relative statement. All told, I think have around $600 USD invested in mine. I am sure that Dave could find you another if you asked.

My Egildo has all the classic. peculiar Embergher features -- the extremely (emphasis on "extremely") narrow and highly radiused fingerboard, the pronounced-V neck, and the slightly sharpened notes high up the neck (to my ear, I haven't tested this precisely).

Candidly, my interest in the Egildo is from the eye of the collector, not as a performance tool -- that is, my interest is musicological and historical (since I write articles for the CMSA Journal from time to time on mandolin history). I personally see the Embergher design as the logical end of a quizzical search to turn the mandolin into a plucked violin, except that the mandolin is not a plucked violin, which raises (in my mind) serious questions about the whole enterprise. It is amusing/informative from an historical perspective to play a Calace prelude on my Egildo in my living room, but I would not do so in public (this has nothing to do with the fact that it is an Egildo, I could own an Embergher 5 bis and feel the same way). Nice to look at, though, displayed as it is on top of the piano in the living room.

I have some other comments on your posting re: the "violinistic" approach to the instrument but I would prefer to discuss these in private, so PM if you are interested.

[Jim Garber]

For the most part Emberghers are designed more like violins which is why they have radiused fretboards and narrower spacing. Some people do have problems with the very narrow necks (I don't). But I also have no problems switching between different mandolins.

Perhaps Ralf would know of people in Edinburgh who have Emberghers or you could contact Ian Steele at Mandolin Scotland.

[derbex]

Rob, your De Meglio might well change overnight with the strings, my De Meglio has GHS ultra lights on it, soft isn't the word I'd use, shouty maybe. One reason I prefer my Ceccherini over the De Meglio is that it's a bit sweeter.

[Rob MacKillop]

Again, lots more comments, and I appreciate and study them all. Many thanks.