Old strings cause of buzzing?

[Mr5150]

Ok, it's been five months since I had my strings installed. I play about a half hour a day.

My mandolin was set up by Folkmusician and played just fine. At one point it was just the G string, which I attribute to my novice skill set. But now all strings buzz when I go from note to note or chord to chord. I've noticed this in the last week or two. No buzzing when I play an open string.

I suspect I need new strings.

[pheffernan]

While I wouldn't be surprised if your strings could stand to be replaced after five months, the description of buzzing coupled with your listed location in the Sierra Nevadas would have me wondering about environmental conditions. Do you monitor humidity levels where you live and add supplemental moisture to the instrument as needed?

[Mr5150]

While I wouldn't be surprised if your strings could stand to be replaced after five months, the description of buzzing coupled with your listed location in the Sierra Nevadas would have me wondering about environmental conditions. Do you monitor humidity levels where you live and add supplemental moisture to the instrument as needed?

How would humidity make metal strings buzz? My flute and sax don't buzz regardless of season. My teacher's mandolin doesn't have buzzing strings and he does nothing to offset low humidity.

[colorado_al]

How would humidity make metal strings buzz? My flute and sax don't buzz regardless of season. My teacher's mandolin doesn't have buzzing strings and he does nothing to offset low humidity.

It isn't the strings changing with humidity, but the wood of the instrument. The top can move up or down, the neck can bend, etc. If the proper humidity is not maintained, you might end up with cracking, in extreme circumstances. If it is drying out, I would not be surprised if the top has sunk a bit and perhaps the neck has changed shape a bit. Nothing that some humidification and re-setup wouldn't fix. If the instrument has been at low humidity and is then setup, it will likely maintain the same sound as long as the humidity is not greatly increased. I'm betting that is the case with your instructor's instrument.
But what it sounds like to me is that your instrument was properly humidified at the shop, and setup there. Over the last 6 months, in winter with the heat on and at high elevation, I'm sure your instrument has dried out and thus the setup needs to be done again. You might get away with not humidifying your instrument, but most would advise against that.
Your instructor might be able to assist with raising the bridge and setting the truss rod, if needed.
I recommend keeping a "dampit" in the instrument at elevation and especially in winter when the heat is on in the house. I have seen several mandolins in Colorado that had the top or back separate or crack due to low humidity. Not a fun thing to have happen to your pride and joy.

I use this:
http://smile.amazon.com/Martin-1400G.../dp/B0009JPR8C

I keep it damp and insert it into the end of the F hole.
$10 and a weekly wetting, and problem averted.

[Mr5150]

It isn't the strings changing with humidity, but the wood of the instrument. The top can move up or down, the neck can bend, etc. If the proper humidity is not maintained, you might end up with cracking, in extreme circumstances. If it is drying out, I would not be surprised if the top has sunk a bit and perhaps the neck has changed shape a bit. Nothing that some humidification and re-setup wouldn't fix. If the instrument has been at low humidity and is then setup, it will likely maintain the same sound as long as the humidity is not greatly increased. I'm betting that is the case with your instructor's instrument.
But what it sounds like to me is that your instrument was properly humidified at the shop, and setup there. Over the last 6 months, in winter with the heat on and at high elevation, I'm sure your instrument has dried out and thus the setup needs to be done again. You might get away with not humidifying your instrument, but most would advise against that.
Your instructor might be able to assist with raising the bridge and setting the truss rod, if needed.
I recommend keeping a "dampit" in the instrument at elevation and especially in winter when the heat is on in the house. I have seen several mandolins in Colorado that had the top or back separate or crack due to low humidity. Not a fun thing to have happen to your pride and joy.

I use this:
http://smile.amazon.com/Martin-1400G.../dp/B0009JPR8C

I keep it damp and insert it into the end of the F hole.
$10 and a weekly wetting, and problem averted.

Question: Are mandolins unique re the humidity factor compared to other wooden stringed instruments (guitars, fiddles)?

[colorado_al]

Question: Are mandolins unique re the humidity factor compared to other wooden stringed instruments (guitars, fiddles)?

No. Most other wooden instruments would also benefit from maintaining proper humidity. I've seen guitars and fiddles crack from drying out too. Best idea is to get your mandolin setup once it is acclimated to your region, and keep it humidified as best you can. You may not experience any other problems, but if you are dealing with a solid wood, carved mandolin (not laminated/plywood) there is a higher chance of developing issues due to low humidity. As the wood was aged and the mandolin was built, and when it was stored at the seller's location, it was likely kept at around 40%-50% relative humidity. That helps keep the water content of the wood around 5%. Wood naturally contains water. When it dries, it is more susceptible to cracking. Not as much of a problem on engineered wood laminates, that many guitars use, but more of a problem with solid wood, used in carved instruments.

Here's the best description I've read about it from http://www.phoenixmandolins.com/humidity.htm

It is extremely important to understand the role of humidity in the protection and performance of your mandolin.

Let's begin with the tree. Just like the human body, the tree depends on moisture---lots of it---for its life. When a tree is cut for lumber, there is a natural loss of moisture as the wood seeks to stabilize its internal moisture with the moisture in the air. Professional woodcutters know that the loss of moisture from the newly-cut tree must be controlled, or the wood will crack badly. With a freshly cut tree, it is a matter of only hours before the lumber will develop serious splits and cracks unless the end grain is sealed with wax or special paint, slowing the moisture loss. The larger the piece of wood, the greater the chance of cracking. Those who cut musical instrument wood, quickly saw the freshly-cut tree into smaller blocks and seal the ends. Then the wood is stacked with spacers between the blocks to allow air to freely circulate and dry the wood slowly and carefully. Control of humidity, temperature, and air circulation are extremely important in drying green wood to a stable, useful piece for musical instruments. It can be done in as little as six months for top wood, longer for the hard woods used in the rest of the mandolin.

Most builders like the wood they use to contain 5% to 8% moisture. That is not the same as humidity, which we describe by comparing how much moisture is in the air relative to how much the air can hold at that temperature---relative humidity. The ideal relative humidity for most musical instruments is 45%. Factories and large music stores try to hold to a 40-50% range. But you and your mandolin don't live in a factory or music store. Your home and other places you play your mandolin cycle through ranges of 30% (or less in desert areas) to 80% or more humidity. This creates stress in the wood as it takes on moisture and expands and loses moisture and contracts. We are talking about a possible change of some dimensions on the mandolin of up to 1/8 inch! Well-dried wood takes on moisture better than it loses it. So, if you buy a mandolin of properly-dried wood, made and stored at 40-50% humidity at room degree temperature, the mandolin should be fine moving in and out of slightly-more-humid situations, but it can warp and crack moving in and out of significantly less humid situations such as your heated house in the winter, a hot car, direct sunlight---any situation which causes significant moisture loss.

For your own health, you should humidify your house if it falls much below 40% relative humidity. But the mandolin rarely stays home. The best protection for your instrument would consist of a combination of a humidity gauge in your case and a moisture-adding device either in the mandolin or in the case. Where can you find a humidity gauge? The relatively inexpensive digital battery-operated ones are very good, but there are also gauges made for tobacco humidors that look nice in a case. Check a hardware store or tobacco store for one of those. Where do you find moisture-adding devices? Elderly Music (517-372-7890) or your local music store can get you an "instrument humidifier," but---very, very important---use it carefully. You can add too much moisture to a mandolin and cause warping, cracking, finish problems, and more. Do not saturate the humidifier and never leave it in the instrument or case longer than a day. A day in and a day out is good for an active player, but no schedule is perfect. Get a gauge and check it frequently.

Many fine mandolins have been destroyed by failing to pay attention to how humidity acts on wooden instruments. Don't let yours be one of them.

[UsuallyPickin]

No they are not ..... fiddles are even worse. Any guitar can develop problems too. It is a simple fix. Leave a small piece of damp sponge in the case in a container with a few holes in it. Monitor the sponge , when it is no longer damp put some more water on it. Old 35mm plastic film cans are great for this. Some folks use a soap dish. There are many products manufactured to take care of this problem from the ridiculous to the sublime in cost. But the problem is simple 40% to 60% humidity and there is no problem. Less than 40% and the instrument gets thirsty. My Mom lived outsid of Jackson, CA in the Sierra Nevada's and when I went to visit her I always had to water my instruments. Kentucky .... not a problem until Winter rolls around..... R/

[Mr5150]

No. Most other wooden instruments would also benefit from maintaining proper humidity. I've seen guitars and fiddles crack from drying out too. Best idea is to get your mandolin setup once it is acclimated to your region, and keep it humidified as best you can. You may not experience any other problems, but if you are dealing with a solid wood, carved mandolin (not laminated/plywood) there is a higher chance of developing issues due to low humidity. As the wood was aged and the mandolin was built, and when it was stored at the seller's location, it was likely kept at around 40%-50% relative humidity. That helps keep the water content of the wood around 5%. Wood naturally contains water. When it dries, it is more susceptible to cracking. Not as much of a problem on engineered wood laminates, that many guitars use, but more of a problem with solid wood, used in carved instruments.

Here's the best description I've read about it from http://www.phoenixmandolins.com/humidity.htm

No they are not ..... fiddles are even worse. Any guitar can develop problems too. It is a simple fix. Leave a small piece of damp sponge in the case in a container with a few holes in it. Monitor the sponge , when it is no longer damp put some more water on it. Old 35mm plastic film cans are great for this. Some folks use a soap dish. There are many products manufactured to take care of this problem from the ridiculous to the sublime in cost. But the problem is simple 40% to 60% humidity and there is no problem. Less than 40% and the instrument gets thirsty. My Mom lived outsid of Jackson, CA in the Sierra Nevada's and when I went to visit her I always had to water my instruments. Kentucky .... not a problem until Winter rolls around..... R/

Thanks to both of you. I have several guitar and fiddling friends and will follow their their experience.

[Charlieshafer]

The one lucky thing mandolins have over fiddles and cellos and all that is there is either an adjustable bridge already installed, or one that can be installed. In New England, the humidity levels (OK, relative humidity for all the scientifically correct folks) will change from 0% in the winter (in a heated room, happened twice this winter when the temps went to -15) or to 100% like today, with a tropical storm passing through. While violins and fretless guys can just retune, frets and really low actions require a more drastic solution, and that's in adjusting the bridge higher or lower.

I'm a believer in whole room or whole house supplemental humidification as opposed to an in-case humidifier. It solves the potential issue of condensation in a case when going from one temperature extreme to another, as well as potential wet spots inside a case. humidifier leaks can ruin an instrument.

[Toni Schula]

As per recommendation of my luthier I use a medium sized potato inside the case as my humidifier during winter season. It works pretty well and so far it never leaked

Others from the Cafe (I think it was Bratsche) recommend better smelling vegetables.

By the way what fiddles and f-style and a-style mandolins have in common is the carved soundboard. Due to the arched form any change in humidity will cause the top to rise or sink as the would expands or shrinks with more or less relative humidity. Flat top mandolins and guitars should be less sensitive to humidity changes in that sense.

By the way I once read that a double bass can loose or gain 1.5 kg (~3 pounds) of water with humidity changes.

[UsuallyPickin]

A half an apple will work also and it does smell nice..... R/

[Bob Clark]

I'm a believer in whole room or whole house supplemental humidification as opposed to an in-case humidifier. It solves the potential issue of condensation in a case when going from one temperature extreme to another, as well as potential wet spots inside a case. humidifier leaks can ruin an instrument.

Amen, Brother.

I've seen what can happen when an in-piano humidifier went kerflooey and it wasn't pretty. Picturing a similar malfunction in a mandolin or instrument case is the stuff of nightmares. Perhaps it will never happen, but maybe it will.

If you can do it, an effective whole room or house system can help evert a whole range of problems with the added benefit of immediate recognition of a malfunction.

[Bob Clark]

A half an apple will work also and it does smell nice..... R/

My problem would be temptation to eat the half-apple during an especially long practice/playing session!

[allenhopkins]

1. Using fruit and vegetables as substitute humidifiers is, IMHO, a fairly poor choice. They rot, mold, attract insects and rodents, and when in more advanced decay, can impart an unpleasant odor to the case. There are many choices of designed in-case humidifiers that work well, and offer minimal risk of leakage and related damage -- especially if used properly. (Some Planet Waves humidifiers may be exceptions, though; check this recent thread.)

2. I'm generally on the side of humidifying an entire room, rather than working with individual in-case humidifiers, but if you take your instruments out of their climate-controlled environments frequently, or for extended periods, doesn't hurt to have the ability to increase the moisture within their individual cases. You will notice, as I have, that instruments taken from more humid to less humid rooms etc. will tend to go flat, as the wood shrinks and reduces the string tension. Put 'em back in their controlled humidity, check 'em out in an hour or so, and they're sharp, as the wood reabsorbs moisture and swells.

3. Some of the best explanation and analysis I've found is published by Taylor Guitars in their "tech sheets." Check out Symptoms of a Dry Guitar for example; it tells you what to look for, and buzzing strings due to insufficient height above the fretboard is one symptom.

[mandroid]

windings are fret hammered on the D strings , after a while , at the extreme they stop being a spiral winding
and become short pieces of loose wires.

[Marc Katz]

ps. +1 on cracks and other damages that happen without humidifying. Here in SW Colorado it's pretty dry (20%) and instruments will dry out and crack w/o humidification. That and as they dry out the wood shrinks and the strings will end up closer to the frets. You can compensate by raising the bridge. Also, after 5 months you will almost certainly be happy with the sound of your mandolin when you change your strings.

[Mr5150]

Since my strings were in need of replacement I had them replaced. Not only does my mandolin sound better, but the "buzzing" is greatly reduced (90%). The buzzing was not caused by strings touching anything. I checked and figured may as well get new strings and see what happens. My mandolin sounds cleaner. I did notice the old strings buzzed against my fingers as I changed notes or chords whereas the new ones don't.

Just an observation.

[Willie Poole]

If you still have a slight buzzing you might want to check every point where there could be something loose, like the tuner pegs, a mis fitting bridge, loose tail piece cover, loose truss rod....the place that installed the new strings could have checked those out for you if it was a luthier or a decent music store...Some times it can drive you batty

Willie